4 Responses to Advice For Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses: When Jehovah’s Witnesses Attack!
Allison says:
July 22, 2009 at 9:17 PM
I am a single mom that has been away from the organization for two years now. I have definately been harassed by members of the cong. They have followed me around town, pushed articles on me at work, called my phone so much I had to change my number. My own parents and exteneded family have tried to turn my daughters against me, and believe me, I am a great mother, and my girls will attest to that!
I have been called in to numerous elders meetings in the past, defending myself and my children from those contentious, jealous ones in the congregation. The funny thing is I was doing nothing inappropriate at all. I was working full time, pioneering, had the book study in my home, and raising my two children to love Jehovah and trust in him.
Now I suffer from depression and anxiety from this horrible experience. I am not disfellowshipped, yet my children and I are treated like we are. I just don’t understand the control.
My girls and I model, and someone just reported me to CPS for having them on a modeling website they think is inappropriate. First of all, who’s the parent here? Of course CPS told me it was ridiculous.
I appreciate your comments about not letting them abuse or bully us. I guess I never thought I would be in this position. I’ve never posted a comment on a site like this, and I still love Jehovah. I’m just trying to figure all of this out right now.
Allison
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The Atheist Geek says:
July 23, 2009 at 8:22 AM
Hi Allison. I’ve been where you are when it comes to the depression and anxiety from being judged, always looking over your shoulder, and all that “good stuff.” It sounds like members of your family are Jehovah’s Witnesses, including your parents. And–if I’m getting it right–they are among those with the not-so-great attitude, unfortunately.
As far as cutting down on the harassment goes, I would try to focus on the source of it all. Most likely, there is a particular person or a small group of people who are driving a lot of it. Family is often the culprit, or near family. Is your father an Elder or former Elder? Do you have relatives that are? Any Elder’s wives that your mother happens to be close to? Are any of them real “busy bodies” that gossip and don’t know when to leave well enough alone? These are the places to start.
If you think you can pinpoint whoever is fueling this behind the scenes, you may be able to have a chat with this person or persons. It’s probably between 1 and 3 people. Bear in mind that some people just can’t reasoned with. But this could help reduce your problems or help them to go away much more quickly. Even if your Elders are known for for this type of behavior, it’s still likely that it all comes from a particular source. You may–or may not–be able to locate that source and convince it that it is doing more harm than good. It is worth trying, especially given the level of problems you are experiencing. You’ve got it even worse than I did!
At least CPS didn’t take the complaints seriously. But that seems like the sort of tactic you’d hear from someone who’s a little unhinged. Do you know anyone who go that far to MAKE you do whatever it is they’re forcing you to do?
To try to offer you further help, I will ask other people who frequent the site to read your post. Maybe they can offer you better advice. You’re making me wonder if I should add a forum to the web site for issues like this. :-) I would suggest you check out some of the ex-Witness forums online, but I don’t know if you’d take that advice since it sounds like you’re still favorable toward the Society. Many Witnesses and semi-practicing Witnesses are afraid of these groups “corrupting” them, but they are exactly the sort of people who could help give you advice and support. Two of the best are Jehovahs Witness Discussion Forum and JWR
Let me know what you think.
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Selena says:
September 3, 2009 at 3:25 PM
I really appreciate your posts. I have faded from the congregation about 6 months ago. Anyway I have been looking for information on how people like me have coped. There are very few websites that help you move past the guilt and fear you feel when you leave. Most have some bitter hatred for the society and are bent on taking them down. Good luck with that, but I needed information from like minded people. Ones who have woken from the fog of superstition. I ran across your articles on about.com and they really helped me. From this website I have found comfort from other sources as well. Thank you very much.
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The Atheist Geek says:
September 3, 2009 at 7:02 PM
Hi Selena. Thanks a lot for posting your comment. It’s always good to know that someone is listening and that I’ve been helpful to some of them. You’re right, most ex-Witness site tend to focus on why the Society is bad or just fan the flames of rage. I’ve tried to do a little better than that here.
Your post is timely as I’m working on some entries and a few minor improvements to the site that might be of interest to you. Including some for the angry ex-Witnesses you meet online. Stay tuned, I hope to have one of them up in a day or two with several more to follow.
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3 Responses to Advice For Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses: Why Some Jehovah’s Witnesses Are Abusive Toward Ex-Witnesses – Part 1
Dennis says:
May 25, 2011 at 4:02 PM
I am a christian and believe in a higher power. I have a very dear friend that is triing to live the JW life, but, not doing a very good job of it. She obeys the rules of her cult when it is convenent to her. She was lost in booze and drugs for a long time before JW came along and now is reverting back to her old habits…and still going to her hall for meetings and service once a week. We have many conversations about this and I tell her to be true to yourself. Im not sure she knows the truth or what she wants. I love her and want to help but dont know how. I could use some advise…….please!!
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The Atheist Geek says:
May 25, 2011 at 8:07 PM
Dennis, I would recommend you take your concerns to JWD or JWR. These are forums where JWs and especially XJWs go for help, advice, and so forth. Far wiser minds than my own can help you there. I have never had a drug problem, but I know others who have tried to fill their lives with something like the Kingdom Hall only to have it leave them short.
For what it’s worth, I suspect that your friend is looking for something and doesn’t know what to do with her life. This is precisely the sort of person that groups like JWs often appeal to. If a Witness comes to someone’s door offering a new world view, many people will take them up on the offer to learn more just to see if another perspective will make them feel good and satisfied with their lives. Occasionally, it works. Quite often, it does not.
For better or for worse, it seems that she isn’t satisfied with what she found at that particular KH. Either that, or she is having problems within that Kingdom Hall and feels judged, depressed, unable to live up to their standards, etc. If that’s what’s happening, then it is a bad place to be. If the religion sounds good to her in theory, but isn’t so good for her in practice, she can remain stuck where she is for a long time. I have known others in similar situations. Sadly, many KHs are very conservative and like many religions, some JWs are very judgmental of others. No group of people is immune. You may consider asking her how things are going at the KH. Note that if you have expressed disapproval of JWs in the past, she is far less likely to open up to you about this if it is a problem for her. Of course, it may not be a problem at all. :-)
Dennis, I don’t know you or your friend. But I would suggest something I hope you’ll take into consideration. It sounds like religion makes you happy. It may be that religion–or at least most Christian, Western religions–won’t work the same way on your friend. Many fundamentalists seem to have a hard time with this concept, but it’s true. (I don’t know if you’re what I’d call a fundamentalist or not.) So while it may be that your friend simply needs to find another KH, or even another religion entirely, it may also be that no religion/faith will make her into a happier, well adjusted person. Please don’t make the mistake of assuming that religion is the only answer for her, though it sounds like religion has worked for you. Ultimately, she probably needs a direction. And a lot of accepting friends.
All that being said, the best thing you can probably do is to be her friend. Don’t let her take advantage of you (I have no idea if she would do that or not) but try not to judge her either. Try to be supportive in a way that doesn’t further her problems (like helping her to get more to drink, for instance). Help her make as many friends as you can, preferably GOOD friends who will support when she’s doing something positive for herself. Christians, Muslims, atheists, whatever–the more POSITIVE support she has, the better. The only condition should be that she move forward, even if it’s toward something you might not have chosen for her.
I hope some of that makes sense.
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The Atheist Geek says:
May 26, 2011 at 10:14 AM
JWD=http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/
JWR=http://jehovahswitnessrecovery.com/phpBB3/index.php
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13 Responses to 5 Reasons Why I Don’t Like It When Jehovah’s Witnesses Preach At Me
Matt says:
July 13, 2008 at 7:31 PM
I must suggest to all Christians and Atheist to read this book “The End of Reason” by Dr. Ravi Zacharias. This book forces the reader’s mind to do the critical thinking that is so lacking in Christianity today. It should also be considered required reading for the atheist who has never really looked at a logical argument for the existence of God, or the Christian who has never really critically analyzed his own faith. Check out more information on The End of Reason here
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Moxie says:
July 14, 2008 at 4:02 AM
Very thought provoking article. I have to agree with you completely on this one.
In #4 you said, “Sorry folks, but if you want me to take this seriously, then you’ll have to treat me as an equal.”
The problem is they don’t view you or anyone else who isn’t a JW as an equal at all. Although they may deny it, JWs feel a superiority as an exclusive group entrusted with “the truth”, and as a result they treat every one with ill-concealed condescension. The reason I can say that is because I was there – I was one. Even as a teenager I would instinctively look down on someone who dared challenge or disagree with the ‘obvious truth’ I was sharing with them. I felt pity for them and thought them to be foolish. Imagine a 15 year old kid condescending to a mature adult on the subject of God. What the hell did I know?! It would almost be comedic if it wasn’t so sad.
Anyway, great article!
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falterer says:
July 14, 2008 at 10:15 AM
I think I agree with all of these. I was disfellowshipped not long ago, and the charges were, “Apostasy, rejection of God, and rejection of his representation through the Faithful and Discreet Slave.” The “apostasy” part, they explained, was simply that I don’t believe in God (I hadn’t made my website public or made my atheism public knowledge at that time). So really, there should only have been one charge: atheism. But the other charge, rejection of the faithful and discreet slave, I think is relevant to your example for Intellectual Dishonesty. It struck me as odd at the time. I’m actually grateful for the label of apostate that’s been plastered on me: since my disfellowshipping was announced, I’ve not had to suffer the kind of conversation you describe above. Being shunned has its upside!
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The Atheist Geek says:
July 17, 2008 at 7:07 PM
Moxie,
Thanks for your comments. It’s weird looking back and seeing myself *from the inside* as I was then. I wasn’t raised in the Society and I wasn’t a Witness for as long as you. But even so, my attitude from the Watchtower days makes me uncomfortable now.
They confuse believing with knowing. Hence, they just “know” it’s “The Truth” when in fact they only BELIEVE it’s “The Truth.” I think that’s the sort of thinking that lends itself to fanaticism.
What should we expect when the Society keeps telling them how right they all are…
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The Atheist Geek says:
July 17, 2008 at 7:11 PM
falterer,
You don’t know how many times I thought about disassociating myself with a written letter. Especially during the first few years when the in-laws kept coming around. I finally decided to make it harder for the Elders. But even as it is, I do whatever the heck I like. If they come around, I’ll will calmly explain to them that I’m not impressed with their so called “authority.”
I know that the Society considers atheism grounds for apostasy. I read in the Insight books that a lack of faith in Jehovah or the Governing Body was grounds for apostasy. ::COUGH::Cult::COUGH:: At least some of my in-laws know I’m a dirty old non-believer, but nothing has come of it. Yet.
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Brian says:
November 6, 2008 at 3:52 PM
I experience this regularly in conversations with my parents on the subject. All the arguments they present are as if I still accept the Watchtower and Bible as authorities over my life. My mother often sends me e-mail filled with quotes from Watchtower and Awake articles, as if I’ve never heard this stuff before. If I point out something the Watchtower is obviously wrong at, they’re apathetic, it’s not a “big deal.” If I then ask why I have to obey everything the Watchtower says even if they’re wrong, they deny that I have to. It’s like they don’t realize I’ve been reading the same literature they have and have been listening to the same talks they have, and then to flatly deny what has been plainly spoken from the stage and printed in the literature when they KNOW I know different, I find that, as you say, insulting.
Brianhttp://www.godless-heathen.com
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The Atheist Geek says:
November 8, 2008 at 12:34 PM
Hi Brian,
When Witnesses just keep coming back every once in a while, I honestly think it’s sort of like an itch that starts bugging them so they just HAVE to scratch it. Trouble is, you’re the itch. I’ve noticed a correlation between the times they do this to me and their big “go get’em” conventions. When family or friends come back from a big convention, they’re chock full of zeal. It’s like walking away from a new Rocky movie back in the 80s, ya know?
Suddenly, they can leap tall buildings and outrun trains and crap like that. So they try again with no accumulated memory of all their other failed attempts whatsoever. They make the same mistakes, say the same stupid things that only push us further away, and are just as blind to their own bad behavior as they were the last time. Darn, and they were so sure this would be the time that would get ya.
Next time this happens to you, you might try taking the wind from their sails with something like: “Uh, you didn’t just come back from *another* convention, did you?” Might be a good opportunity to seize the initiative and turn the tables back on them.
IsaacJ
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deano says:
August 20, 2009 at 3:52 AM
I think Athiesm is an excuse to be deliberatley controversial or an excuse to ignore the facts. Im not a Jehovahs Witness infact I take drugs, I drink too much and dont really have much of an opinion on much else.
I have been at the JWs memorial service every year for the past 6 years. I live next door to JWs and not once have they tried to force their opinions on me. All my life I have believed that their word, conduct and intentions are true… Infact if I consider what is belived to be the general theme of the bible I challenge anyone to prove it untrue…
The New World translation is a “traslation” i believe there is alot of room for speculation…what if bla bla bla….
How are so many prepared to pour their faith into Democracy, world leaders, war…even though none of the above have EVER worked out?? We are fed so much bull shit everyday and swallow it whole…
Were not here to kill each other, for our sons and daugters to die, to starve or suffer….
Jehovahs Witnesses are our only hope for the future we long for.. If theyre wrong then whats the point??
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The Atheist Geek says:
August 20, 2009 at 8:22 AM
“I think Athiesm is an excuse to be deliberatley controversial or an excuse to ignore the facts.”
These are your words, Deano. They tell me that I didn’t stand a chance with you before you even got to this web site and that you don’t know what you’re talking about. If you’re this bigoted, then those words don’t deserve a real response because you aren’t going to listen anyway. Nice job reaching out, BTW. Good luck making converts this way.
You then proceed to mention a handful of experiences you’ve had with JWs, and equate that with the years of trauma that people who grew up in the religion have had. Then you toss their experiences and problems aside like they’re nothing because … what? … I made a post they could identify with and you disagreed with it? Boo hoo for you.
Deano, there is nothing constructive, useful, or remotely positive in your post. You are not reaching out. You are not trying to square any misunderstandings of mine or your own. And believe me, you’ve misunderstood a lot. The whole thing just seems like your stream of consciousness after a knee jerk reaction to the title of my post. Try taking a breath for pity’s sake. You sound (or read) like a crazy person. I can head you beating the crap out of your Bible with every double question mark.
If you actually have something useful to say, then that’s what you should have said. If you’re just here to lash out, then be a little more mature and let it go or I’ll ban you from posting here any more. I’ve thought about creating a forum here. If and when I do, that’ll be the place for tirades of self righteousness. And even then, only so long as they don’t get out of hand.
Ok?
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Haywood Jablomi says:
November 6, 2011 at 12:34 PM
It’s amazing how common the “I’m not a JW but I believe that JW is the one true religion!” comments are. What an odd coincidence!
Note to JWs: no one who is not a JW believes that JWs make any sense. Quit with the shill comments.
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The Atheist Geek says:
November 7, 2011 at 6:08 PM
Yeah, I know what you mean, Haywood. I sometimes get over the top comments from people who are REALLY angry. I sometimes wonder if they’re from teens who are being raised by Witnesses. Many are obviously from adult Witnesses having a knee jerk reaction to a particular line or even just the title of the post. Sometimes, people with complaints don’t even bother to read the article.
Anyway, thanks for your comment.
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Pingback: Fun Facts about the Preaching Work of Jehovah’s Witnesses | Michigan Skeptics Association
B.W. says:
June 3, 2013 at 3:16 AM
Yes. I don’t believe for a second that those folk who are non-members of the JW’s who consider the JW’s to be the ‘truth’ are honest about themselves. They are lying through their teeth.
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4 Responses to 5 More Reasons Why I Don’t Like It When Jehovah’s Witnesses Preach At Me
Tom says:
July 21, 2008 at 9:16 PM
I’m not quite sure what you’re driving at with your first point. It rings a lot of bells but at the same time I can’t think of an example. Could you possibly mention a couple for me?
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The Atheist Geek says:
July 23, 2008 at 7:26 PM
If you have an opinion about something and you want to convince another person that your opinion is true, then you will give that person an “argument” that is supposed to prove – or at least strongly support – your opinion.
For example:
“President Bush is the greatest President ever because we haven’t had any terrorist attacks since 9/11!”
But if someone shoots down your argument by pointing out that your argument is flawed in some way, the argument is defeated because the argument isn’t logically true. (I’m talking about principles of debate and stuff like that here.)
For example:
“Actually, there isn’t any evidence that a second terrorist attack was ever attempted. So it seems more likely that we haven’t been attacked again because no one has tried. We have no reason to assume that the administration actually stopped any new attacks since 9/11. Also, there are a lot of other ways to measure the greatness of a President. So lack of terrorist attacks proves nothing about the ‘greatness’ of this one. Sorry, bro.”
So you now realize that your argument isn’t true because someone explained this to you. You may still think that President Bush is the greatest President, but you now know this particular argument doesn’t work. So it would be dishonest to keep using that argument to convince others that you are right despite the fact that you know the argument is flawed. If you do this, you are probably hoping that the person you’re trying to convince won’t spot the flaw in your reasoning. Which is dishonest, as I said earlier.
You are basically hoping to trick someone into believing your opinion is the correct one because you can’t come up with anything better. :-(
Unfortunately, Jehovah’s Witnesses and many others seem to make this mistake. Some of it is just laziness. “Well, 4 out of every 5 people I meet seem to agree with my flawed argument. So I’ll keep trying it even though some people know better because it still convinces everyone else that I’m right. And convincing them that I’m right is what matters, after all.”
No, that’s not all that matters. You should only use arguments that work to convince others of your point of view. If you have to use tricks, then maybe that’s because your belief is wrong to begin with. At least logically speaking.
Sorry if this doesn’t make sense. I’m not sure how else to explain it. (?)
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Brian says:
November 6, 2008 at 3:55 PM
The using flawed arguments on purpose is a big one. In their mind, even if the argument doesn’t work, the conclusion is correct. So even if someone arrives at the conclusion by faulty means, it is still the right conclusion, so the ends justify the means.
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The Atheist Geek says:
November 8, 2008 at 12:43 PM
Brian,
For many, I think the arguments are just a formality. It’s a bunch of rationalizations they can use to emotionally reinforce their beliefs rather than prove them intellectually. Once the belief takes hold and they are emotionally invested, the rationalizations (as opposed to reasoning and logic) are secondary.
They start working backwards – first comes the belief, then comes the “reasoning” that confirms it. You and I are more likely to see things the other way around. But once the belief becomes more important than the line of reasoning behind it, dispelling their misconceptions doesn’t do anything except make them feel uncomfortable. That’s because they’ll still cling to the belief you’ve just disproved, but feel exposed because they can’t give you a good reason for continuing to believe it is true. They don’t want to admit that their belief has no basis in reason or that it makes no sense. If you press them on this, they’ll likely retreat. Some may even avoid the subject of religion in the future because they don’t want to be confronted with this again.
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4 Responses to Why Is It So Hard For Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses To Stand Up To The Watchtower Society’s Faithful?
Stacy says:
February 22, 2009 at 6:33 PM
Hello….
I’d like to comment on some of the things I’ve read here… but only with your permission.
A little about me…
I am no longer a Jehovah’s Witness by name, but I have never been able to let it go in my heart. I left the organization about 9 years ago. I was an Elder, I gave public talks, I was a book study conductor and the Theocratic Ministry School Overseer among other things. I left my wife who was/is a Witness and my two children who are grown now with kids of their own. I have never met my grandchildren because of my decision. I lost all of my friends and in many ways now do not ‘fit’ anywhere. I just finished watching the movie Religulous and thus did some internet searching on why there was no direct contact or even mention about the Witnesses…. and I came across your site. I would like to be able to not only answer any questions people might have, but I would like to make a comment or two if possible.
Thanks
Stacy
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The Atheist Geek says:
February 23, 2009 at 7:51 PM
“I’d like to comment on some of the things I’ve read here… but only with your permission.”
Now you’ve done it. Guess I’ll have to write up some comment/posting rules for everyone in the future. ;-)
But as to your question, fire away. :-) Comments are welcome. But with a warning: this is a site for atheists, ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses, and sci-fi geeks. If you are posting here with a pro-religious or pro-Watchtower agenda in mind, you may not receive a very warm welcome from everyone. That would make you the first poster to leave comments like that, BTW. So if that’s your aim, we’ll both be wondering about the reaction you’ll receive.
If a debate ensues and gets too heated … or people start arguing in endless circles … I will probably step in. I may create a forum some day for people to have conversations like that, but comment sections really aren’t the right place.
All that being said, your next post will go straight to the site without my approving it first.
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Stacy says:
February 24, 2009 at 1:52 AM
Thanks for the response….. and for your candor. It actually made me think twice about commenting here. I really don’t want to start a debate or anything heated because that doesn’t do anyone any good.
Thanks again!
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Nicholas Carroll says:
February 25, 2009 at 11:36 PM
Just wanted to say that this was an interesting read. Last week, I saw an excellent Danish movie (“Worlds Apart”) about a JW girl who falls in love with a non-member and the conflict it started with her family and church. It’s really good! Highly recommended. I know little about the JWs, aside from a few co-workers over the years who always proselytized…especially whenever someone experienced a death of a loved one. It was annoying. One tried to get me to attend a Kingdom Hall with her, but I resisted, even though I’m naturally curious and tolerant, and interested in different religions. I told her that I wasn’t interested in her church because I love Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter and my birthday. There’s no way I’d give up any festive occasion for some controlling, conservative church!
I think people need to understand that there are people who actually like being controlled and others who are independent minded. An independent minded person is not going to like an authoritarian religion (and I include the Mormons, Scientology, Unification Church, and Assemblies of God in this category, along with JWs). Joining because you’re afraid of Armaggedon is like staying in bed because you’re afraid an asteroid is going to hit you as soon as you walk out the door! There is rational fear and then there’s paranoia. No thanks!
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2 Responses to Review: Religulous
VirusHead says:
February 1, 2009 at 11:33 PM
Hey – thanks for the link love here. Very nice!
Most interesting to me was that Religulous seemed to track a movement in Maher’s own thoughts. In the first part of the film, he kept trying to pull something authentically spiritual and ethical from the discussions – to make distinctions between the claims and something that could still be salvaged. By the end of the film, he had given up – the major beliefs and practices – and the ways that believers were manipulated – were so toxic that he could only condemn.
It was worth it for me just to see Maher standing in Megiddo! I’m just waiting for someone to act out the script and send a blue-turbaned hack through the gates astride a donkey…
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The Atheist Geek says:
February 6, 2009 at 5:48 PM
Glad to have you back for a visit. And I like your site, too. A lot of the stuff I see online by ex-Witnesses is heavy with the bitterness and light on helpful advice. Yours is not. Plus, you’re an atheist too.
How could I NOT link to your site?
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4 Responses to Why I Used To Believe In Ghosts And The Supernatural
dag says:
June 12, 2009 at 11:29 AM
Interesting and well written article, thanks for sharing!
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Wija-chan says:
March 14, 2010 at 4:49 PM
I have to agree…
We never experience it but we get looots of stories from our family members.
That’s why I started questioning “why won’t they show up in front of me and scare the life out of me?” lawwl
If they were true, they had LOOOOOTS of opportunity to show up in front of my face and scare me shitless but they never did…
haha
This is why I stopped believing them and became an Atheist as well.
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B.W. says:
June 3, 2013 at 11:22 AM
I think the JW’s good people, most of them but they are very superstitious from what I have seen. I personally think instilling the belief in a child that an evil entity and his minions run the governments and all ‘other’ religions which are ‘false’ can attack you at any moment and if you refuse to belief it then this god will annihilate you and all the non-members of your denomination that were not alive when the group was formed when the deity finally decides it is time to restore the earth into a ‘paradise’. Well, I think all religions are false including the JW’s. I don’t think the JW’s have license to call any other religion ‘false’ when they cannot prove their denomination’s claims which are largely done by simply quoting passages from their religious texts and denominational literature which does not count as ‘proof’ but are merely making claims that have yet to be proven to be ‘true’.
I think the JW’s are a false religion, I think the JW’s are apart of Christendom but I don’t care if they believe in the WBTS doctrines as long as they don’t try to convert me. It’s their life. They live theirs my way, I live mine in the way that I choose.
I’m not trying to be mean. I personally do not have to uncritically or unconditionally agree with any or all of the JW’s beliefs or practices just because they believe their specific denomination of Christianity is the ‘truth’. Other fundamentalist denominations of Christianity believe they are the ‘truth’ too. I consider to the JW’s to be fundamentalists. I don’t believe that the JW’s ‘one and only true denomination of Christianity and religion in the world’. I don’t believe that the WBTS is their god’s ‘only channel of communication on earth’ for the world. I don’t believe in ‘Jehovah’/Yahweh/Allah. ‘Jehovah’ is not the ‘one true god’ to me. ‘Jehovah’ is a false god to men. I don’t believe the Jewish or Christian bibles are the ‘inspired’ or ‘inerrant word’ of any god. I don’t believe in ‘angels,’demons’, ‘ Satan’, the ‘holy spirit’, annihilation’ ‘hell’, ‘heaven’ or an ‘earthly paradise’.
Most of the JW’s are good people, I just personally don’t believe what they believe or would want to engage in the religious practices that they engage in, no hate or persecution required. Respectful disagreement is more distasteful than yelling.
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Javmack says:
July 27, 2013 at 6:18 PM
I remember not wanting to talk out loud about any of my phobias because I didn’t want the demons to hear and use these on me later during the Great Tribulation. Lol.
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2 Responses to News and Links for Atheists: Dawkins, Tyson, Druyan, Stenger, Grothe’ by CFI
The Atheist Geek says:
July 28, 2009 at 4:26 PM
Sorry about the name at the top (Grother instead of Grothe) I fixed it twice and it didn’t take. (Grrr!!!) It seems to be working now.
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August 14, 2009 at 6:05 AM
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3 Responses to Advice For Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses: How To Handle It When Jehovah’s Witnesses Confront You In Public Places
Selena says:
September 5, 2009 at 7:24 PM
This was not only informative it was very funny. I share the first part with my husband and he had a good laugh from that.
-Selena
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apiece says:
September 14, 2009 at 3:47 AM
Hi Athiest Geek,
I wish I had read this a few months ago, it would have been very helpful. When I left the JWs, I also moved to another country – actually I moved country and then left the JWs. So, I don’t bump into them often, except when I visit family. With family I’m polite, but honest when they ask my opinion. Recently, I used the polite response on a JW who confronted me about something I wrote online. At first I thought if I was off-hand/generous he would go away, and when he didn’t I had to clean up my mess. And yes, he saw my generous responses as a weakness to exploit. In the end I found the exchange quite useful as it clarified some opinions I didn’t realise I even held. But, yeah, if I’d read this post beforehand, I would have been spared the drama.
I really like your posts, they’re sane and funny, and very helpful. :-)
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The Atheist Geek says:
September 14, 2009 at 8:02 AM
Thanks for the comments.
Sadly, it seems like many Witnesses are unconsciously trying to bully and hassle ex-Witnesses, not so much to save us from ourselves as they claim. Their approach is usually off and they do more damage to their stated goal than good by being aggressive and mean. Many of them do a wonderful job of pushing us around, though.
This is how many top-notch salesmen work as well. They push you around until you get tired of it and just buy the service plan like they wanted. Then, they’re suddenly friendly again. It conditions you to just do what they want because it’s easier.
Both bullies and aggressive salesmen push their advantage when they sense weakness. Try to match their aggression and they’re more inclined to proceed carefully. So be confident, not meek. They want the “buzz” that comes from slapping you down. If they sense that they might get slapped down instead, they’ll suddenly switch to a gentler, kinder approach. This allows them to cry foul if you overdo it. That’s why, in public, at least, you should only match their aggression.
Note that not all Witnesses are this bad, but many are. :-( Too bad.
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38 Responses to Are Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses Really Just a Bunch Of No Good Apostates? Here Are 5 Ways We Can Prove The Watchtower Society Wrong.
Heidi says:
September 4, 2009 at 12:16 PM
Excellent! I agree.
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Selena says:
September 5, 2009 at 6:56 PM
That was awesome!! Very well stated. Thank you so very much for this. This information was very helpful. I really appreciate the part about being able to explain why you have left. That is the hardest part for me.
Again, thank you so much for what you do.
-Selena
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The Atheist Geek says:
September 6, 2009 at 11:28 AM
To Heidi: Thanks for the comments.
To Selena: Hi Selena. Yeah, explaining my reasons was a tough one for me too. It really took years before I could nail it all down and articulate it, especially in the face of JW certitude. Constant nagging by my JW in-laws really drove me to keep trying. I’ve been puttering around with an essay that goes into details about it. Maybe I’ll post it when it’s done.
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Dave Jones says:
February 19, 2010 at 1:01 PM
Thanks for that view. I am inactive, however I have spent a lot of time lokoing everywhere for the ‘What do I do now” question. It seems a lot of ppl are pissed, and rightly so, but I am not interested in reading testimonials right now. I have no bitterness in my heart for any of them individually, as I think they are comprised of some very honest hearted and loving people. My issues is mainly of a doctrinal nature, and I am really trying to grasp what happened to the last 20 years I was involved. I appreciate this insight, and it has helped me.
Thank You
DJ
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The Atheist Geek says:
February 21, 2010 at 7:33 AM
Thanks DJ. You might want to check out some of the links I’ve posted on the site for other places you can go that aren’t all about raging against the Tower.
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dinah says:
April 9, 2010 at 12:00 PM
hey thanks atheist geek – this article has been just what i needed!
i’m 26, have left “the truth” and pretty much feel like I’m just starting out in life but its nice to read a positive spin on things and I’m viewing this now as a great opportunity
thanks!
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The Atheist Geek says:
April 9, 2010 at 4:33 PM
IMO, that’s exactly what it is, dinah: an opportunity. Get out in the real world and explore the possibilities that are open to you now. Shockingly, there’s a lot more than just sex, drugs, and rocknroll.
Good luck. And thanks for commenting.
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Wayne Rogers says:
April 12, 2010 at 11:57 AM
Great comments. I try to advise newly exiting jws similarly.
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Christopher L. Chambers says:
April 12, 2010 at 5:56 PM
You made a lot of good points but, I like my anger. I grow up a JW and took the plunge when I was 19 years old. I was told time and time again that being angry or mad was wrong so growing up I always had to have a smile and was a good little JW. I am not angry because they DF me or the fact that I can’t talk to my mom and dad the way I can talk to my best friend I am angry for what they put me through all the abuse of every kind especially the sexual.
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The Atheist Geek says:
April 12, 2010 at 6:40 PM
If you want to stay angry at them, that’s up to you, Chris. I found it a waste of time and energy, so my advice leans in that direction. (Not that all of my commentators get that.) If you lash out or try to trash the WTS, just remember that you are helping them more than hurting them. Keep that in mind.
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John Hoyle says:
April 24, 2010 at 5:58 PM
Hey Geek! You are so right about everything you’ve stated in this article and others. Those of us who are out and are sure about our choice to leave the JWs, eventually regain our confidence and the correctness of our decision to leave.
I want to comment on two of your excellent points.
1. Being angry at the JWs – The rank and file are just trying their best to be good Christians. For the most part, the vast majority are really good people and I applaud them for that. I would trust most JWs with my house keys and wallet. So how can we be mad at them? They are deluded and ignorant about the very things they claim to be experts on, but that does not make them bad people. Always keep your heart and arms open to them.
2. Filling the void – You are so right. Many of our ex-JW friends have left the Watchtower and then immediately moved into another church – or as two very prominent ex-JWs have done, form their own. It seems like they need to be in a church environment to remain happy and fulfilled. You are absolutely right: Exes should give themselves time after they leave to let their systems clear of all religious influences. After a year or so, then go and research and try other churches if you want. But to move from a Kingdom Hall into a church is insanity and self-defeating.
BTW – I will put up a link to your site on mine. Great looking site with lots of excellent writing. Good job!
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The Atheist Geek says:
April 25, 2010 at 8:29 AM
Thanks a lot for the kind remarks, John. And the link. They’re always appreciated.
It’s interesting that you mentioned my comments on being angry at JWs since I recently had another comment from someone saying they intended to stay angry. I can’t exactly blame people for feeling angry and even acting out. It just doesn’t seem to do anyone much good … except the Society. It makes them look like the good guys and keeps pushing JWs back into its protective embrace. So hanging on to that anger is worse than futile.
I do think we can hold an individual JW accountable for bad behavior, though. Even if they claim they’re doing it because Jesus (or the WT) commands it. I just don’t think holding on to a broad, “I hate everything that is connected to the Tower” kind of anger serves any useful purpose.
Anyway, thanks again.
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what the fuck ever says:
September 6, 2010 at 6:06 PM
OmJ!are you fuckin serious ha! Sounds like someone didn’t learn shit and is
Now cryin like a big damn baby with drooling lips hahahaha!!!!!!boohoo
Woes me!!!keep cryin dumbass you know as well as I how close it is but
By all means keep being an apostate ignorant!!
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The Atheist Geek says:
September 6, 2010 at 6:40 PM
Thank you for your thoughts and your consideration. Most Witnesses who come here lose their cool and hurl childish, knee jerk insults at me, often without even reading what the articles they’re commenting on. Thus, they only reaffirm my opinions about them in a public place where all can see. But you, kind sir, have reminded us that most Witnesses aren’t that stupid.
Right?
So, with your brilliant exposition and constructive criticism–not to mention a truly brilliant name like “what the fuck ever”–I am forced to remember that only the very worst of JWs would stoop that low. Thanks for restoring my faith in humanity as I ponder the deeper meaning of your post.
Thanks, bro. I might even go back to my old KH and see what perfection is like all over again. I might meet other excellent people like yourself there. Which would be awesome. Yeah, you’ve really changed my life with that one.
Thanks again. Please come back whenever you can.
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B.W. says:
June 3, 2013 at 10:58 AM
WTFE,
Oh, real mature using profane language to get your point across. Isaac is not acting like a crybaby with ‘drooling lips’. Your the one complaining. He does not know how ‘close it is’ and neither do you. He is not an ‘ignorant apostate’. He is a former JW but at least he doesn’t go on JW-themed forums are call people mean and nasty names.
I wonder what the leaders of your church congregation would say if they saw you use such language. Most fundamentalist denominations of Christianity including the JW’s do not permit their members to use profane language at all. I disagree as people have freedom of speech , at least in the US they do but calling people profane names is unecessary and is one reason I don’t like the JW’s who act like you.
I personally don’t agree with most of the JW’s beliefs or practices but I still think most of them are good people anyways. I am happy I am not a JW as I wouldn’t want to end up like you. Most JW’s would probably disagree with your behavior on this website. It is wrong of you to go around and threatening former members of your Christian denomination by saying that your god will annihilate them during the ‘end of the world’ which I personally don’t believe in. It’s not your place to judge and you probably shouldn’t be on this website in the first place since the leaders of the WBTS do not want their members to go on websites, forums or blogs run by former members.
You give the JW’s and all religion a bad name and even tarnish the already negative reputation of fundamentalist Christians eveywhere. You have alot of growing up to do , buddy. It’s nice to see that you use your religion to make yourself look like a total jackass.
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Dave Jones says:
September 15, 2010 at 3:21 AM
LOVE that response..
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The Atheist Geek says:
September 15, 2010 at 7:44 AM
Thanks Dave. I’d like to say that I don’t think that all Witnesses are stupid or anything like that. Every group has its best, and its worst. Guess which category this person fell in when they flipped out?
I think some of them just fly into a rage when they see the title and feel like kicking a puppy or something. I admit it wasn’t a glowing review of JWs, but it wasn’t totally evil either. It was about XJWs, not them.
Oh well.
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Joel Gunz says:
October 11, 2010 at 8:17 PM
Hi Geek –
Loved your article, and there are lots of good points.
I agree with Christopher, however, that anger has a wonderful place in the ex-Witness life. While there is some good in the JW community, the abuses trump all that, and are, in fact ourageous. I would argue that, as such, an appropriate reaction is outrage. The main thing is to know what you’re angry at. Is it the people or the organization, or isn’t it rather the abuses themselves? You can use that anger to do good and effect change in the world, by supporting groups such as Amnesty International, or, if it’s your thing to work to expose JW abuse. That, in my view is a healthy use of anger. I do agree, though, that bitterness and resentment (a form a gut-wrenching masturbation) aren’t all that helpful.
So, in that light, I can’t support the thought that “Good exxers aren’t angry or bitter.” (A) I disagree with the point, and (B) the good vs. bad moralizing. I got enough of that from the Watchtower.
For what it’s worth, I wrote a little post about anger here: http://exjehovahswitnessportland.blogspot.com/2010/04/what-am-i-supposed-to-do-with-all-this.html
My favorite point of yours, on the other hand, is regarding all the blind lashing out about weird conspiracy theories etc. When the WT accuses of apostates of resorting to half-truths and lies this is what they’re talking about.
Cheers my friend,
Joel Gunz
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James Clarke says:
October 12, 2010 at 6:08 AM
Atheist Geek, you make some really good points, I love what you wrote, keep up the good work.
1 suggestion though, perhaps you should stop dear Brother what the fuck ever from posting here. His slick, well thought out, well constructed arguments may make me want to go back to the witnesses.
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The Atheist Geek says:
October 12, 2010 at 6:10 AM
Joel,
You can certainly agree or disagree with that one. I still think there are degrees of being angry or bitter about the past, and too much is always worse than getting over these feelings. But my real point was that you aren’t exactly helping yourself to move on with your life if you’re still that hung up on the WTS. It’s better for you to get over it rather than remain hung up on to it–even if you can’t get completely past it. You can do just as many positive things without letting those feelings stay with you all the time.
Everyone’s entitled to anger or bitterness, especially when it’s deserved. No need to defend that part. But I don’t see it as the best use of your life or energy in and of itself. Some people are all about their hang-ups from the past and can’t move beyond them.
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The Atheist Geek says:
October 12, 2010 at 4:36 PM
Hi James. Thanks for the compliments. And yeah, I almost got some of wife’s Watchtowers out and thought about going back to the KH myself after Brother What-the-fuck ran me through the latest battery of conversion techniques. ::Wink::
Keep reading. I’ll keep writing as long as I have a web connection. :-) I’ve got a few projects I’m trying to get up and running right now. Maybe even a podcast. (Gasp!)
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The Atheist Geek says:
October 12, 2010 at 4:41 PM
Hey Joel, I wanted to come back to your comment again. I wrote my other response at 3:30 this morning before I went to work and thought I’d add something.
My way of framing this article–as in, good versus bad ex-JWs–was more about getting people to read the post than it was to pass judgment. Certain titles and certain ideas tempt people more than others to read. I don’t mind stirring the waters a little bit, as you may have noticed from time to time. As you can also see, this article has more comments than probably any other that I’ve written.
Still, you have me thinking that maybe I should add a little something at the end about that. Not a bad point. Thanks.
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Joel Gunz says:
October 12, 2010 at 7:02 PM
Sure, I see your point.
I often see XJWs who insist that they’ve “moved on” from the past, yet clearly haven’t — and are instead suppressing it. In those cases, the anger still comes out, not always in very productive ways.
I think that the mix-up occurs when people confuse feelings with hang-ups. Hang-ups should be examined and processed, with a good therapist, if possible. But feelings? Eh, they just are. You can’t will them away. Why would you even want to? Here’s one of my favorite quotes from Thich Nhat Hanh:
“Just like our organs, our anger is part of us. When we are angry, we have to go back to ourselves and take good care of our anger. We cannot say, ‘Go away, anger, I don’t want you.’ When you have a stomachache, you don’t say, ‘I don’t want you stomach, go away.’ No, you take care of it. In the same way, we have to embrace and take good care of our anger.”
Paradoxically, proponents of the “just get over your anger” philosophy are some of the angriest people I know. (Present company excluded, of course.) Since many XJWs have really been “abused and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd” by the Borganization, I’d say the emphasis might be better placed on healing and love, rather than glib advice to get past this or that feeling.
Well, so much for my $.02.
Cheers. BTW, I’m known as the Alfred Hitchcock Geek in some online circles. Thought that might amuse you.
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Simon R Humphries says:
January 24, 2011 at 2:00 AM
Jehovah Witness maintain a considerable “secular” community much like the jews do. Reasons could be anything from, say. . .Struggling with faith based issue, i.e. such as the infamous made much of “blood issue”. Or their are not enough leadership positions and person in question has “Absorbed enough light”, and can now stay home if they desire so to. Some are the kids of well to do JW’s that still work in their parents business concerns, yet have no part in kingdom hall activities. Even ones that have been disfellowshipped and lets say. . Sell drugs, still will take orders from the JW hirarchy (I know this 4 a fact) They have some interesting “rackets” such as where I live in Adelaide S.A. their teenage sons ran (were) the graffiti gangs thru the 1980′s to the present, and the official JW’s would run the Graffiti removal businesses, and in return 4 this the said “apostate youth” would be free to shoplift from Coles “New World” supermarket chain stores to their hearts content, which they, i.e. JW’s largley run and operate and staff here in Australia. They also have a deal going with other denominations such as Mormons and others to hire some of their kids and vice versa so it doesnt all look like nepotism i.e. just hiring there own, Mormons run the woolworths here down under by the way. The state Psychiatric department here cooperate in helping them convert specially picked “marks”, usually the awkward callow sons of middle class secular parents that are of non masonic family lines, and if they can get the conversion they will arrange a marraige with one of their girls , this is usually done for get a free house out of them , divorce and knock of convert and re- marry girl to someone born in the truth, this wont happen often tho because it is not easy to succsessfuly effect but they do enjoy degrading and destroying said families all the same. I dont know about in “your neck of the woods , but here in OZ these people are largley of jewish extraction. . .sacripant.
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The Atheist Geek says:
February 19, 2011 at 9:05 AM
All I can say is that things work extremely differently where you’re from. Including our definitions of what it means to be secular.
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James Clarke says:
February 19, 2011 at 1:53 PM
I think Simon R Humphries is a little whacked. I am from Australia and let me assure you, the JW’s do not run Coles and the Mormons do not run Woolworths. Simon mentions Coles New World. The supermarket is not called Coles new World any more, it changed to Coles Supermarket in 1991 and just Coles in 1998. I used to work for them when I was a JW and let me assure you, it was very hard to get time of for the convention, which would not be the case if they were JW run.
Simon is either a little whacked of he has smoked way too much pot.
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The Atheist Geek says:
February 19, 2011 at 3:03 PM
Yeah, I almost thought it was a joke. Then I figured, what the hey, I’ll let the comment post to the site anyway. [[shrugs]]
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James Clarke says:
February 20, 2011 at 8:57 AM
lol
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Anthony Zarola says:
March 16, 2011 at 12:39 AM
The anger is real. the reasons are justified by our Lord Jesus.
The ability to control anger directed at Satan’s Organization on earth can be even more difficult at times. But I have discovered that when we direct our JOY of being OUT from them, towards the teaching of others about their lies, false prophesies, and unscriptural shunning and beliefs, well,…..things start looking up. Anger is not good for the heart if it manifests itself in destructive acts, external, or internal.
FOCUS your anger into a channel of good. We were taught how to talk to others courageously at one time in our lives? Yes, now is the time to speak out with true conviction concerning the lies and false teachings of this cult. Be brave, don’t mis-behave!
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James Clarke says:
March 17, 2011 at 6:38 AM
Our Lord jesus? Your lord Jesus perhaps, certainly not mine.
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Anthony Zarola says:
March 17, 2011 at 10:07 AM
Jesus became flesh to represent us as our King. He knows we will become angry, and rightfully indignant as regards the teachings of proclaimed Christian organizations who mis-quote, and mis-represent him.
Jesus demonstrated his displeasure at the money-changers, and the pharisees who dominated his sheep, much like the elders do in the Jehovah’s Witness organisation.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are led by demonic inspiration, not Holy Spirit, therefore our anger directed at their lying teachings is justified, and shared by OUR LORD, Jesus. I am sorry you view Jesus’ role as passive. He is our instructor, and our only true example…”Be wrathful, but do not sin”.
No, Our Jesus is a warrior King.
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Anthony Zarola says:
March 17, 2011 at 10:14 AM
You folks here are demonstrating your displeasure with Jehovah’s Witnesses as well as contributing to the “healing process” that is imperitive for mental, physical, and spiritual health, regardless if that is in regards to athiesim, or any brand of religious persuasion…..you are rightfully expressing your opinion as to the controlling, domineering, and damaging effect they have on the lives of people searching for simple happiness.
I appreciate the lines of thought here, I also appreciate the reasonableness of the members here to allow others to express their opinions. Thank you.
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The Atheist Geek says:
March 17, 2011 at 6:39 PM
Anthony,
I do try on all the counts you mentioned. Not all Witnesses are as polite or understanding about it. Of course, my sense of humor probably gets me into trouble with them from time to time, too. Thanks for your comments and compliments.
I will point out that I don’t agree with everything you’ve said. I have my doubts about demons inspiring anything, for instance. (I’m an atheist and very secular minded.) Still, you have a right to a point of view. I’ve let everyone comment here who ever wanted to post … unless I thought their post was spam by mistake. Sometimes, it’s hard to tell. :)
The feelings of XJWs toward the Society are certainly understandable and justifiable on a lot of levels. But I do think, in the long run, we’re better off moving forward than always looking back angrily at the WTS. That remains my best long term advice for all exxers. As others have said, the best revenge is to live well.
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The Atheist Geek says:
March 17, 2011 at 6:47 PM
P.S.–
Anthony,
Not to put too fine a point on it, but you are being a touch presumptuous in saying “*our* lord Jesus.” It doesn’t offend me, but I can understand how it rubs many atheists the wrong way. Especially ones with evangelical family/friends. We’re the most likely to balk at stuff like that.
Have you ever had a JW friend/relative tell you something like, “But since we both know it’s the truth…” Maybe that made you feel somewhat the same way. They asserted that you agreed with them when you didn’t. They pulled into a group you didn’t belong to. See what I mean?
If you’re goal is to reach across the aisle with an open hand to nonbelieving XJWs, you might want to tone that down a little. Not berating you, just offering something to consider.
Peace.
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Anthony Zarola says:
March 17, 2011 at 8:39 PM
OMG! I did not give that a consideration when I started posting…I do apologise for not channeling my thoughts in retrospect. I can understand the misgivings about my presumptuous posts. I have not encountered a “non-believer’s site” before, so I will tone it down. All said, you guys have some fine ideas, and I guess I do understand how, and why many are completly turned off and away by religion as a whole. I will be sensitive to your posts. Thanks for not tanking me guys.
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Anthony Zarola says:
March 17, 2011 at 8:40 PM
Scratch that “OMG” too…
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James Clarke says:
March 18, 2011 at 2:07 AM
OMG is ok. I say OSEG, or Oh Someone else’s God. Works for me.
Just a small point though, you said “in regards to athiesim, or any brand of religious persuasion.” I have to point out that atheism is not a religios persuasion. If it were, then baldness would be a hair colour!
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Anthony Zarola says:
March 18, 2011 at 10:39 AM
Then whatever it is, that “persuaded” 1/2 of my hair to “leave the rest of group”, that’s the power I now believe in…….! “As a forrest that has been thinned, the former lushness has passed away, but where only thickettes were once observed, now wider, more discernable pathways to deeper understanding now exist”….Yeah, I must have been the “wild-hair” that was up the rear of some elders opinion….oh-well….Pluck him!
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15 Responses to How And Why Doubting Witnesses Can Fade From The Watchtower Society: Bigger, Better, And Uncut!
Robert W. says:
August 7, 2010 at 10:19 PM
If you can, the best thing to do is to move. Try to find a house or an apartment that is closer to your job but far away from your current KH. You could switch to a new KH that is closer to your new diggs and then fade from there. It would be best to move to an apartment complex where guests have to be “buzzed in” to get into the building. If you can find one with a secure parking area for tenants, all the better.
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The Sleepy Herm says:
April 18, 2011 at 4:09 PM
I would be downright screwed without this article, AG! I’m planning the next 5 years of my life around this article! Moving out and away/getting the hell away from this religion…yep, thanks so much for this article! When I’m not busy ass-kissing I’m busy planning my fade/move/escape! haha.
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Anonymous says:
July 28, 2012 at 5:18 PM
Hello,
I found this article through Austin Cline’s website. I successfully faded in the midst of a scandal within the congregation. This presented the perfect opportunity to leave without the repercussions of being disfellowshipped/disassociated.
Although I have already faded, reading these articles has been helpful. I feared seeking help, because of how the term ‘apostate’ had been used. These were the first articles that did not scare me out of reading further.
My question to you is; what should I do after fading? For several years I have hidden every aspect of my life. My family believes I live in an apartment near their home- I am in a different city. I avoid denouncing the religion, and they even believe I will return.
I continued this charade because I feared being shunned. My entire life is a lie, and I keep every detail private. I once thought I could include my family after several years. Now it seems as if this will continue until I get caught, and ultimately disfellowshipped.
What should I do? I have a plan to confide to “worldly” family members, so I have someone once my family shuns me. Should I continue lying to family? We have remained extremely close, because they do not know my true feelings.
It is unfair that I was born in to this religion, and must suffer the consequences of leaving. If I must suffer for this, I am determined to make the most of my choice to leave. However,the lies and secrecy prevent me from truly moving forward. I absolutely believe this religion has caused psychological damage.
Any words of advice are appreciated!
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The Atheist Geek says:
July 28, 2012 at 5:53 PM
I have offered several articles with suggestions how former Witnesses can “fade” over the years. They have worked for some, but not for others. The one I wrote for Austin Cline was only the second article I had ever written for XJWs. I wrote it because, for many, fading is a big deal. It’s an attempt to balance who exxers want to be versus who they are forced to be because they love their families. The necessity of fading is one of the things that, for me, crosses the Watchtower Society over the line between “authoritarian religion” and “suspiciously cult-like.” As you know, it’s one of the most messed up things they do. It’s just one of the reasons that I believe “the truth” to be an unhealthy place to live.
Anonymous, I hesitate to tell you what to do with your life. And that’s the territory we’re venturing in right now. I will offer you my suggestions and thoughts, but never forget that you’re the one who must bear the consequences. So don’t do anything rash on my say so.
That being said, despite the articles I have written about fading, my ultimate recommendation to ex-Witnesses is this: in the long run, you’re better off without the lie. If you can live without your family, then that is the direction I would recommend. If you can’t live without them, then think about what it would take for you to get to the point where you could. Or, obviously, simply continue on as you have been for as long as you possibly can and enjoy it while it lasts. Of course, it’s hard to enjoy anything when it’s tainted by a lie, even if it’s a necessary one.
I’m not suggesting you go to your parent’s house tonight and confess everything. Start making plans. Strengthen your ties to other people, or to more people, to replace the loss when it comes. Think everything through. Go out of your way to be good to your family while you still have them. And do your best to leave them with great memories of you. Try to minimize their ability to create excuses about why you left. Then, as the time draws near and you are in the strongest emotional position you can be in, decide how you want them to find out about your loss of faith.
This doesn’t have to happen in a month. But I suggest that, in the long run, you will be better off if it does happen. It’s not fair that they love you so conditionally while you put them so high up that you’re willing to pretend you’re something that’s far away from who you are. In effect, the Society and your family are in the driver’s seat of your life. At some point, you’ll be better off taking the wheel.
Again, don’t do something crazy. But that is my advice. Remember, your relatives are blood. But your family can be anyone you want them to be. Start creating a family that will love you unconditionally if you don’t have one already.
Best of luck my friend. Feel free to write back.
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Anonymous says:
August 4, 2012 at 6:30 PM
Hello,
I would like to thank you for your beautifully written reply. I have been thinking about what you said for days. I have tried to reply multiple times, only to change my decision.
When I first chose to leave, it felt instinctual. I can remember looking for a way out from a very young age. However irrational this might be, I feared for my life.
My decisions were based on emotion, and the cold, hard facts did not matter then. Of course I still feel those emotions, but I have a firm grasp on reality now.
I know I have to make a choice, but accepting these choices is challenging for me. Even if I make the right choice, I will still lose something.
I would like to thank you once again. I am sure any of us could attest to how controlling the society is. At times I feel lost because I have never made my own choices.
Subconsciously, I came to this site looking for someone to tell me what to do. I appreciate how you did not tell me what to do- this is exactly what I needed.
I am no closer to making a choice. However, I now feel capable of making one and facing the consequences. I have read all of your articles, and identify with your wish to be a good exxer.
The society would like us to believe life outside of the religion is meaningless. However, even if this door closes, I know many more will open.
In the short time I have been free of their grasp, I have done more with my life than would have been possible before leaving. There is so much good in the world, and I am happy my eyes have been opened to it.
Thank you once again, I plan to frequent your website. :-)
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The Atheist Geek says:
August 5, 2012 at 9:33 AM
Anonymous, have you ever tried hanging out with other ex-Witnesses on a social network like Facebook (you could create a fake identity to do this) or on an ex-Witness forum, like JWD? I have recently added a forum to this site, but no one is using it yet. :) So JWD or JWR (which is smaller and a little less religious than JWD can be) are better alternatives. If you’re a nonbeliever like I am, you might also try the newly created XJWSec.
There are plenty of friends waiting for you out there. Some are former or even current elders who can provide advice if you still want to fade. And all of them have success stories for inspiration. Many have been DFed, or simply walked away (like I did). Some are miserable (warning!) but others are very happy. I’m one of them, because I hang out at all these places from time to time. On rare occasions, they even have get togethers. One of the FB groups had a barbecue for the 4th of July and people from different states showed up for it.
Finally, the Broad Road has it’s own chat room. (Something I have been working on as well.) They have chats on Friday nights, around 7:00 EST, usually with less than a dozen people at a time.
All of these are sources of insight, information, new ideas, and friendship. Or to just share your pain when you need to.
If you ever want to email me, my email address is at the bottom of the About page.
Best of luck with everything. Don’t be afraid to share your story with us in the future.
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The Atheist Geek says:
August 5, 2012 at 1:08 PM
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/230190/1/Top-10-EASIEST-WAYS-TO-FADE-lets-use-our-new-Code-words-I-will-do-2-of-10
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Anonymous says:
August 29, 2012 at 12:03 AM
You are unbelievably pitiful. Have you ever wondered why it’s tough to leave unnoticed? It’s because they care..they genuinely care and try to help. .My husband works full time and yet volunteers hours and hours a week (he is an Elder) to help the members of the congregation. If you don’t want the Elders help, just say so….then he can spend more time with his wife and three kids instead of trying to help you! No need to sneak or lie…this whole blog just shows how lost you truly are. Why anyone would seek advice from someone who encourages lies and deception is shocking…just tell the truth. Just say “I’m too selfish and foolish to be a witness….I have no idea what I really believe but I know I don’t want to sacrifice what I would have to sacrifice to be a witness…even if it is what Jehovah clearly states in the bible. I would rather convince myself that it is not true so i dont have to make the effort.” Please…and save us the time so we can help others that actually feel a responsibility to something other than themselves.
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The Atheist Geek says:
August 29, 2012 at 11:44 AM
To be as blunt as you have been, you are just as oblivious and self-centered as I am pitiful. And yes, if you were expecting a respectful or kind response to a comment with your tone, you were sadly mistaken. Correction: make that just as pitiful as I am. And BTW, the hours your husband spends fulfilling his responsibilities as an elder have no bearing on anything here. Nor is anyone impressed.
You clearly have no idea what it’s like to make 5 meetings a week just so you can continue talking to your family, who already see you as a low-life because you aren’t doing everything they want you to in the thing which JWs so humbly call “the truth.” It is a miserable state of affairs, all unnecessary, that is induced by the emotional blackmail that is called disfellowshipping, which is laid at the feet of Witnesses – many of who were baptized as children or forced by their parents to get baptized in their teens – by a paranoid organization that thinks everyone is out to get them. And I do mean everyone, from so-called “worldly” governments to demons to the Devil himself. An organization that is as incapable of handling criticism as you.
Many congregations have elders who are real-life witch hunters, and yes, they will disfellowship a person for simply not believing in their truth anymore. For some people, that’s unbearable. So unbearable that they’re willing to live our miserable lives in service to something they don’t believe in, or worse, that they fear is a controlling cult.
Note, once again, that your husband and your inability to spend as much time with him as you would like have nothing to do anything here. Or at least they shouldn’t.
I realize that you’re going to tell me that your KH is different and awesome and that you don’t know what I’m talking about. If so, either you are INCREDIBLY fortunate in attending the rare KH that is liberal and tolerant, or you have no idea what is really going in your own KH. Either way, you are clueless. And that is half the problem here.
You waved around your husband’s elder status. So I get to wave the ex-Witness who thinks this is crap and doesn’t want to be here but has to play along, status. And don’t pretend that people who are unhappy or who have doubts can just leave without consequences. I will call you a liar for it and be done for the day. Every other ex-Witness who frequents this site will know it, too. There isn’t a month that goes by where the Society doesn’t post something about how DFing works. We know everything you know.
BTW, if I were you, I wouldn’t read an article like this at a website called “ATHEIST Geek News” with the description, “Created by an ex-Jehovah’s Witness…” right up top, unless I had skin thick enough to handle what I was about to read. Otherwise, I could be accused of reading it with full expectation that it would upset me, as it has you, almost as if I were looking for a fight. If you even read the article before you flipped out, that is. And yes, I call, you flipped out. That’s why you’re getting the response you got.
If you don’t like this response, feel free to take a breath before you answer back and try showing an ounce of civility. You’ll get it in return, but only if. I have a strict “give what I get” policy regarding comments, whether they’re positive or negative. And dare I suggest that you consider – for the tiniest second – that you may not know everything, and that being an elder’s wife does not make your views special. Maybe ex-Witnesses and nonbelieving Witnesses who are forced to pretend they’re believers deserve some pity, or some advice like I’m providing, instead of more attitude and self righteousness. Sometimes, you should really try to learn more about something before you jump in with both feet and declare war.
Next time, try harder to have some compassion and to understand what you’re dealing with, or just leave us be. No one asked you to like us. You certainly don’t seem like you understand what it’s like to be harassed by self righteous elders, and yes, many of them are self righteous. I have no idea what your husband is like. Please don’t conflate these two ideas.
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Nelinqui says:
August 29, 2012 at 12:53 PM
I find, from my own experience, that fading away it’s not worth doing. Soon or later you are going to said what you truly believe and everything would be out in the clear. You actually feel relief when this happen, it’s pretty much like coming out of the closet. I faded for a long time until I got tired and eventually came out of the closet with what I truly believe. If you want to get out of the organization, just do it all at once, like a band aid, right off. Must important start making new friends, especially xJW because they will understand you better then anyone. Not easy to come out of the closet but once you do, you will feel free and ready to learn what has been kept from us by the JW organization
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The Atheist Geek says:
August 29, 2012 at 1:19 PM
I agree, which is something I wrote about here. Some people aren’t able to break their family connections, however,so in their desperation, they try fading. As you say, some are caught and get disfellowshipped anyway.
It’s not for us to judge what’s best for them. But I do recommend simply coming out and parting company, unless your KH is liberal enough to look the other way. Many are not. Some KH’s will DF someone just for admitting that they are having doubts.
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Little Ol' Me says:
August 29, 2012 at 3:59 PM
LOL @ the “Elderette” who thinks that those who leave don’t want to make the “sacrifices” necessary to be a JW. Sacrifices? Honey, you have no idea the REAL sacrifices those of us who have left due to reasons of CONSCIENCE have made. Sacrificing friends, family, jobs, homes, etc. Try being homeless, having your children taken from you by a lying JW spouse who then lies to the children about you, losing everyone you have ever known, and losing your job…all because your friends, family, and people you worked for were JW’s and no longer want you around because you believe differently than they do…because you’ve learned the history and the REAL truth about the organization. Try being the person who everyone turns their backs on and casts off. Try KNOWING this will happen, but not being able to function with a clear conscience because you also know that staying in the organization would be wrong and living a lie and SUPPORTING a lie. Going ahead with a fade or with disassociating oneself is the ULTIMATE sacrifice when there is so much to lose.
Let me tell you something…YOU DON’T KNOW SACRIFICE. You think attending meetings twice a week, going and bothering people in their homes (which is actually AGAINST what Jesus taught should be done), attending the odd assembly and convention…you think that’s sacrifice? Not celebrating holidays is “sacrifice”? Please. You all brag about how much money and stress you save by NOT celebrating. The only ones sacrificing are your CHILDREN who have to grow up in a high control cult and don’t get the normal interactions and experiences of childhood and who have to be forced to sacrifice valuable time with their father. They don’t CHOOSE to make the “sacrifice” and neither do you. You all have no choice in the matter at all. You think that having to lose time with your husband is a “sacrifice” that you make on your part out of the goodness of your heart and that him spending time away from his family is a “sacrifice” he makes for the organization? It’s not. It’s MANDATORY. His elder’s manual and various letters from Headquarters DEMAND that he make those trips to visit people who may not really want him there. Spying is encouraged, as well as stalking. Are you aware that your husband is encouraged by the Governing Body to stalk other JW’s in order to catch them in some wrongdoing? I bet you’re not…because you’re not allowed to read the elder’s manual…because you’re a woman and you’re not an elder. But there are things in that book that would make your head spin…things your husband is tied and bound to follow to the letter. So stop spouting about how much YOU are sacrificing. Nobody likes a martyr or false modesty.
They also don’t like people who pretend to know what goes on in the mind of an exJW when they have never been one themselves.
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Joyce says:
September 24, 2012 at 11:31 AM
I have been searching for a site such as this, with a place to read about peoples lives who have been involved in the JW. I myself am not an ex JW, or currently one either, thankfully. I have however had personal involvement with both. My heart goes out to those struggling with much of life due to this cult, for want of a better description. I truly appreciate the way you responded to a comment on Aug 29 11.44am. I am also hoping for any comments or advice you can possibly give to my situation. I will start with a little background, if you would please bear with me: I was bought up Anglican & when JW would knock on our door, my mother would turn them away and warn me lovingly that they were wrong. My husband & I were married in an Anglican church. A few years later, and living in a fairly remote area, after not attending church for a few years, a lovely old JW couple started me thinking about God again after a few visits. After a few months a younger couple asked if we would like to do a bible study with them, my husband agreed, and for a few weeks we had weekly studies. His brother, a born again Christian heard about this and visited & called by phone. We did start to doubt, and after a round table discussion with an elder, my brother in law and us, the elder turn nasty, and nothing but loving words from bro in law, we decided to stop studies & accept his invitation to his church. Skip fwd 20+ yrs & children, bought up with Christian beliefs. Young (15 1/2) daughter meets a boy (17), who she starts dating & falls for, who after almost a year, decided to start studies himself, and reveal he was bought up as a JW, but had rebelled as a teen (came from quite a broken family, lots of issues involved). We welcomed this lad in our home, showed him love, both before and after this revelation, and showed him scriptures etc, and invited him to church, which he declined. My daughter, who I had no fear of her going on this journey with him, as she chose to be baptized herself when she was 11, as a Christian, could not understand the JW ‘religion’, I even let her attend some ‘meetings’. After knowing him all this time, then for him to change within a few short months, she hoped that I could help, through prayer, and a lovely ex JW couple that I had met after seeking help, as I knew there was some sort of drama for my daughter & this lad coming, as they had very strong feelings for each other, even though so young. This ex JW couple have been a constant wealth of support and comfort to my daughter and I. The husband had been bought up in a JW home from the age of 5, and the wife had chosen to join at 20yo. The wife had been involved with them for over 20 years, and they have both been ‘out’ for over 20 years now. After a few months of many deep discussions, lots of prayers, etc, they broke up under strained circumstances. He was very hurt as another boy had vied for my daughters attention, and as she was very upset, confused and distressed over what was happening with her relationship, she was drawn away by this new lads attentions briefly. There were a few other issues that her (then) boyfriend had that were stemmed from his rebellious time (he was very confused about a lot of things, and this led to drug use, which my daughter disapproved of), though he tried so hard to turn himself around, how he was going about it, with thinking that the studies with the JW was going to help him, unfortunately only made the two of them draw away from each other. My daugther apologized for letting herself be kissed by another lad, but still he broke up with her, and it was very hard for a few weeks for all concerned. I had many phone calls with the lad, and tried as much as I could to help them get through it, heal and forgive each other, and move on with, or without each other. It wasn’t up to me, it was up to both of them, but the lad didn’t ever take responsibility for his own actions, or apologize to my daughter for hurt he had caused her (she used to cry herself to sleep, as he would often never return her texts or calls when they were dating, sometimes for days, then when it was her bithday, he never bought her a gift, as he had blown any $ he had on a bender with his friends the week b4, and things like that) This was about a year ago now. The lads mother (the one who started the families involvement in the JW in the first place, though is not really involved in the JW anymore, staunchly believes their teachings & has many new age type of beliefs at present) has had contact with me and my daughter in the last few months. After he and my daughter broke up, I advised my daughter to wait at least 6mths b4 getting involved with another boy. As they had been together for 18mths, I thought that was enough time to get over him. He was in another relationship within 6wks. This did hurt my daughter too. I felt that it was a rebound relationship, and I don’t think he realized how much he loved my daughter, and that he probably felt he would get over her quickly, and he was very hurt and sorry for himself. That relationship lasted a few months. Apparantly, according to his mother he hasn’t gotten over my daughter. The two them have had sparing communication via text messages. He did ask my daughter to meet him about 6mths ago, after a relationship didn’t work out between her and another boy, but she didn’t, as she didn’t know how she would feel seeing him, but also that she knew it could never work out, as he was so caught up in the JW, even though he said he stopped studies. Our ex JW friends advised that it would be best for her not to see him. My friend had seen many hurtful things happen such as the male saying they weren’t JW anymore, then after marriage, reveal that they were to attend meetings, and that the children that they would have, would be bought up as JW at his insistance etc. They feel that our daughter has been spared a probable similar fate. It is a long drawn out story, but I do feel very bad in that, this lad has been hurt, and maybe he does still love my daughter, buy if he did, he hasn’t gone out of his way to fight for her. His mother may be trying to get them back together in her own way (she asked my daughter not to let her son know that she had contacted her) but i am very close to my daugther and she did tell me this. I was a bit upset that the mother had done this, though I do understand that she loves her son. She shouldn’t be asking my daughter to contact him, as he has really done no contacting either after the text 6 mths ago, or after my daughter sent one about a month ago saying goodbye, and that she was closing all communications with him (social media contacts). It is a real shame that this happened, that there has been hurt, and that there is still unresolved issues. I feel torn whether to contact the lad by letter to somehow cause some sort of resolve to begin, but of course, I do not wish to add to any hurt or drama. I also have the option of contacting the mother. I have social media contact available to both, and phone with the mother available if needed. I am not sure what to do, or if I should do anything, but as this is all still in my head, I feel there is a need for something to be resolved, so maybe the two of them can go on to be loving,caring people & not carry hurt, which will affect any future relationships. My daughter is doing quite ok, but I don’t really know how the lad is doing emotionally. I know this isn’t a relationship help forum, but as it has much to do with JW involvement, any help via advice is greatly appreciated.. even if it is in the form of ‘lady, go see a therapist’, I would probably think it was wise advice too :) Thanks for listening
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The Atheist Geek says:
September 24, 2012 at 12:25 PM
Hi Joyce. I’ll try to give you some advice, including another source of way better advice than mine. It’s called the Jehovah’s Witness Discussion Forum. There are loads of XJWs like me there who can offer you other points of view to consider. I’m sure you’re trying really hard to do the right thing here, so it may be worth checking out. It’s the biggest XJW forum that I know of. You could more or less copy the comment you left into a message over there and see if you get any better thoughts than mine.
I should probably mention that my wife and I had problems getting together too. I was a convert who had begun wavering as doubts started to creep in. She had emotional problems and came from a family with a history of mental health issues. Both our families got involved, including elders on her side who feared I just wanted to sleep with her or that I wasn’t “Jehovah Witnessy enough.” The funny thing in our case is that, if the families had stayed out of it, the whole thing probably would have taken a much more natural and easier course. So my first suggestions to you is to keep your involvement in this to a minimum. I know that may be hard to do, but I really think it’s for the best in about 99% of situations like these.
I’m inclined to agree with people who have already told you that the boy may not be the best person for your daughter, especially at this point in his life. Do people change? Yes. Is he young and therefore likely to change? Yes he’s young but I’d give a “maybe” to the last part. Especially if drugs are a factor. He sounds like he’s more into himself right now than he is into her, and the fact that he has been with several other girls who left him isn’t the best sign, either. Why, after all, did they leave? If his lack of attention has affected your daughter as seriously as you say, this may not be the right time for her to get serious about a relationship either.
I’m not suggesting that you should try to keep them apart. Only that bringing them together won’t solve anything. From what you’ve told me, I suspect it could actually make things worse. A relationship might work between them when they’re older because they will both be different people in a couple of years, but right now, I wouldn’t encourage her to contact him unless it’s her idea to do so.
A few points to consider:
1) He has been seeing other girls. None of them so long as your daughter. Are his feelings more about missing her or are they more about feeling sorry for himself after each break up? He may simply be focusing on your daughter because he dated her the longest amount of time. Or maybe because their breakup was the most jarring.
2) The boy didn’t seem to treat your daughter so well when they were together, either. Guys who are truly head-over-heels in love will work a lot harder to let a girl know he’s thinking of her all the time. I sure did! Most of us can’t help ourselves. We’re a peculiar species that way. ;-D Again, I really think his feelings are more about himself right now than they are about her. Not that this makes him a bad guy – he’s young! I think chances are high that they’ll simply break up again if they get back together now. In the end, putting them back together might only prolong the agony for both.
3) Has your daughter told you everything? Think hard about this: you’re her parent. Few children tell their parents everything. Chances are high that you may not know all the reasons they broke up. I don’t mean to suggest anything ominous, only that you may not have the full picture. But even the things you mentioned are potentially serious problems. That’s something to think about. Both he and your daughter seem to be pretty sensitive, or at least they were when they were dating. Both of them need to be a little more mature before they enter a serious relationship. If there’s a real chance of that happening between them, it will probably be a little later in their lives. Putting them back together prematurely could ruin that possibility.
I don’t see anything wrong with staying in contact with his parents so long as they are reasonable. Remember, he’s their son. They want whatever they think is best for him. You’re daughter will probably come second, whether they mean for her to or not. If either of them pressures you to do something, I would be very slow to comply. And ultimately, I would suggest you give them the same advice: don’t get too involved! Relationships are hard enough to work out without others pulling or prodding. Yes, it’s hard on your households, but in the end, you could make it all worse and make the bad part of it take a whole lot longer to work itself out.
That’s my 2 cents…or 2 dollars. This comment was even longer than most I have made! :-D Good luck with everything, and feel free to write again.
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Joyce says:
September 25, 2012 at 8:14 PM
I am very grateful for your prompt reply and that you have taken the time to put a lot of thought into it. You have very good insight into the situation, and your advice really hit the mark.
The lad is quite self focussed at the moment, as he is a musician, and what bought me here was your Meg Myers video. I was thinking that there must be a young ex JW singer songwriter who is putting all of their emotions and talents into music & song – and bang – there she is! She is awesome :)
In regards to my daughter though, my intention wasn’t to try and get them back together, as I unfortunately can’t see a happy future if he is to remain the way he is, but as you say, in the future things may change. It is certainly wise advice to leave things to take there natural course. I commented to the lads mother a year ago on their break up, that if it was true love, that they would work it out. If through all of this he can be free from the chains of the JW’s would be the ultimate. This, and other similar forums are a wonderful tool for healing emotions that have been damaged. I hope he finds one, and his mum too.
Meanwhile, my daughter is falling for another musician… & she already knew to do a background check on religions up front this time. It is a real shame that we have to do this, but it really does matter what our faith and beliefs are when it comes to relationships.
Thank you for the name of the other forum, I will have a look into it if something else comes up in this, at times, rather emotionally trying situation.
Again, I am truly grateful and appreciative of your advice, you definately have a gift there. Your website must be a comfort to many. Keep up the good work. Peace & love,
Joyce
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4 Responses to Why Jehovah’s Witnesses Think They Have More Freedom Than You Do
vikki says:
January 3, 2010 at 9:15 PM
yes were controled, we have to give gifts on december 25, we have to give gifts for mother on mothers day and dad on dads day, turkey on thanksgiving, gifts for our lovers on feb. 15, dress u[p on the oct.25 , green on saint patricks day and search for decorated eggs on easter… wait thats you
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The Atheist Geek says:
January 3, 2010 at 10:02 PM
Actually, I’m no longer a JW (I stopped attending meetings like 14 years ago) but I don’t do any of the things you mentioned either. Why? I simply choose not to bother with any of it. There are no laws which say I must do any of these things. Nor am I bound by any doctrines which say I must do these things.
I also don’t have to attend 5 weekly meetings, study the WT literature week after week, or log hours in field service, or answer to the whims of Elders, the Governing Body, attend the Memorial Of Christ’s Death or the conventions, consult the organization’s opinion about the music I listen to, the books I read, the movies I watch, etc. I could go on.
If our obligations are how you measure control, I’m pretty sure I would win. Luckily, that’s not how I see things.
You could search through the other articles I’ve written to get a more complete picture of where I’m coming from and offer something better than this angry commentary. (Yes, even if you disagree with me.) That would be something of value. Something interesting to read and respond to.
Or you could continue to drop angry commentaries throughout the site (and others like it) based on what seems like a knee jerk reaction to a single article that wasn’t even aimed at you. Which do you think will earn you the most respect from me and others who read this site? What impression do you think you’ve made so far?
If you are easily offended by opinions that contradict your own or the Society’s, you should really stick to reading approved sites that support that point of view. Not ones that dissent with the organization. Knee jerk reactions will only get you flamed or ignored everywhere else. They certainly don’t make practicing JWs look any better to XJWs like myself.
If you are calm and reasonable, with a genuine interest in having a conversation or communicating ideas–even criticisms–then you are welcome to contribute. And I will try to respond in kind. But please don’t bother with the angry knee jerk reaction stuff. It gets tedious very quickly. You’ll get a lot more from pretty much everybody if you do.
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B.W. says:
June 3, 2013 at 3:12 AM
Vikki,
No one has to give gifts on December 25th, they don’t have to give gifts to their parents on Mother’s Day or Father’s Day, they don’t have to eat Turkey on Thanksgiving, giving gifts to their lovers of February 15th, they don have to dress up on October 25th , wear green on Saint Patricks’ or search for decorated eggs on Easter. People can do all or some of these things and it is not your place to judge.
Nobody is ‘controlled’ to do these things. Your denomination of Christianity prefers not to because of these holidays non-Christian origins but you have no right at all to make fun of those who do celebrate birthdays or holidays. That is not a very nice thing to do. Furthermore, if you do not care for the opinions of ex-members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses whether non-religious, spiritual-but-not-religious or religious than why are you on these websites which you are not even supposed to be on in the first place?
Does that not make you a hypocrite? I think it does. There are plenty of JW websites for you to visit, there is no need for you to bash on those who celebrate holidays and birthdays. If you want respect , Vikki, you have to earn it. Y
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melissa says:
February 22, 2011 at 11:15 PM
I am a teacher. Here is a discussion that my JW student started with the rest of the class (who are not JW’s) . ” No, I didn’s get this for christmas, I dont celebrate christmas. You shouldnt celebrate holidays or else jahova will kill you and you will not be one of the chosen ones to live in paradise.” mind you……she is only 4
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4 Responses to When Jehovah’s Witnesses Try Reasoning With Us To Get Us Back In The Kingdom Hall
Robert W. says:
August 8, 2010 at 8:04 PM
This is why I say if you can move away, do it. Maybe you can move to a different community within in your current metro area, or skip town altogether an move 500 miles away. One way or the other this will make it more difficult for witnesses who already know you to find you, and the witnesses in your new area won’t know you’re an ex-JW and you’ll just blend in with the general public (a p.o. box can come in handy). Also, moving will force you to make new “worldly” friends. Remember, making new friends is one of the most important parts of the recovery process.
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The Atheist Geek says:
August 9, 2010 at 8:10 AM
I agree. If you can move, this brings all kinds of advantages. For some, the upheaval will be too great. For others, the problems of living near a KH are even greater.
I lived just 2 mins from my KH when I stopped going to meetings. Gobs of fun, that was. Wish I could have moved back then.
I would also recommend leaving outright over fading out of the congregation over a period of years, but again, that doesn’t work for everybody. I suggest in a couple of articles that XJWs can officially change congregations – preferably to one that is more liberal (they do exist) or where apostate hunters aren’t as prevalent. Then, they just disappear from the other congregation without much wait. Those articles are here and here if anybody’s curious.
As it just so happens, I’m working on something new to help address JWs harassing XJWs. :-) Hopefully, it won’t suck. Stay tuned. I have an extra day off and hope that’ll be enough to get it finished.
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Robert W. says:
August 9, 2010 at 9:18 PM
I moved from a small midwestern town to the suburbs of a big city on the east coast. I spoke to the C.O. at my old congregation and told him that I had moved and asked him for an official transfer. I had him send my publisher’s card to a cong that is in my new metro area, but over 30 miles away from where I’m actually living. He doesn’t know I’m that far away from the new KH because doesn’t know my real home address and he isn’t familiar this area anyway. I went to the new cong once just to make the transfer official and then never went again. I’ve never heard from the new cong and as far as the elders at my old cong know I’m still an active witness. I think my mom suspects otherwise, but I as far as I know she’s never ratted me out.
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The Atheist Geek says:
August 10, 2010 at 4:32 PM
Thanks for posting that. It might help someone in the future.
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5 Responses to News And Links For Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses: Witnesses in Russia exhaust domestic options
Ed says:
April 11, 2010 at 8:41 PM
You guys are really from another planet!
If you don’t like them why don’t you just leave them.
If a baptist leaves he leaves you folks attack with some sort of satanic vengence..
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B.W. says:
June 3, 2013 at 10:10 AM
Ed,
No one is attacking with ‘satanic vengeance’. Using scare tactics on folk won’t work. So, don’t be such an illiterate bonehead. It’s folk like you that people don’t like the JW’s or other denominations of fundamentalist Christianity.
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Ed says:
April 11, 2010 at 8:43 PM
Even God had some of his angels go bad , and that was not his fault!
From all my years of experience near them they are the best people on earth!
But I am sure your slander will continue with half truths and verbal attacks.
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The Atheist Geek says:
April 12, 2010 at 6:37 PM
I’d like to know what I said that was so slanderous, Ed. Most of my WT related articles are for former Witnesses having trouble dealing with overly-evangelical family or friends who are still Witnesses. (Most of my advice is fairly positive, in fact.) I am not attacking them and you didn’t give any examples of where I did. But they do harass many of us.
Regarding your comment that we should just leave them, we already HAVE left them, Ed. That’s what it is to be an EX-Jehovah’s Witness. They just won’t leave many of US alone. If you checked my articles out before commenting, I should think you’d have realized that by now. BTW, many ex-Witnesses who leave are disfellowshipped and shunned by their own family. So many of us are either completely cut off or have to deal with constant pressure to return when we don’t wish to. Most of my WT articles are aimed at people like these.
If you can’t give specifics on what I said that was so bad, then I’ll assume you’re just having a knee jerk reaction to one of these news links. We get that a lot, too. Note that I don’t write the articles you find at the links. If that’s the problem, then you are complaining in the wrong place. I only wrote the links because I thought they would be of interest to readers who are FORMER JWs. Not current JWs or supporters of JWs.
BTW, what do you mean by “you guys?” There’s only one author here, so it’s just me–not we “guys.” You’re making me wonder if you’ve lumped me in with someone else.
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B.W. says:
June 3, 2013 at 10:24 AM
I don’t believe in Yahweh or his ‘angels’ or ‘Satan’ or that his ‘angels’ went ‘bad’. That is just Christian mythology to me. The JW’s might be the ‘best’ people on earth to you and that is okay. Most of them are good people. I just share different views of the world than they do. You seem to think that anyone who disagrees with the JW’s are telling ‘half-truths’ and is verbally ‘attacking’ them. Polite disagreement is not ‘attacking’ , dude. If you support the JW’s so much, why are you not a baptized member?
I think it’s stupid to defend a religion that you wholeheartedly agree with but are not an offical member of? That is how you come across to me. Perhaps there are somethings that bother you about it that you are not telling? This website is for ex-JW’s and non-religious people. Not for the practicing JW’s and the JW ‘supporters’.
People have the right to disagree with any or all of the beliefs and practices of the Jehovah’s Witnesses or any other religion and to say why they disagree. I think ” Jehovah” is a false god. I do not believe the Jewish or Christian bibles are ‘inspired’, ‘infallible, ‘inerrant’ or the ‘word’ of any god. I don’t believe in ‘Armageddon’ or a ‘earthly paradise’ or that that the WBTS is Yahweh’s ‘one and only channel of communication’ with morals or that the JW’s are the ‘one and only true religion’.
No, I believe most of the JW’s are good people but I personally do not believe what they believe nor would I engage in the religious practices they that engage in, that’s all. No hate required. You can believe in the JW denomination if you want but nobody is inclined to unconditionally or uncritically agree with all or have to ‘respect’ any of it’s beliefs or practices, do you understand?
6 Responses to Humanize Yourself In Four Steps When Evangelists Objectify You
Tyler says:
March 30, 2010 at 1:22 PM
I find these situations happening quite a bit as a 16 year old living in a Witness Household.
I’ve directly discussed my Agnostic Atheist beliefs with my parents, my old study partner for the bible teach book and a elder that was close to my family. It seems like age has a big deal to do with everything, witnesses think they can come up to you and spend an hour or so having a “conversation” trying to prove you wrong. Which we all know isn’t a conversation, they’re simply standing there because they like to hear themselves talk about how right they are. (I’m not trying to bash JW’s as I’ve done this a bit myself as a Witness)
I find your articles quite compelling and helpful, living in Canada I could leave my house if I wanted but I don’t see things as that bad. (Considering all my associates are witnesses). As a 16 year old the elder who I discussed my current Agnostic Atheist beliefs with labeled me an apostate. He seems to have kept his mouth shut and not said anything to any other elders, but some in the congregation I’m assuming have come to that realization. (They’re always in a “hurry” and can’t talk to me).
One witness friend of mine said “But I know you know it’s the truth”, to which I had no response I was afraid of hurting his feelings…Your articles have helped me quite a bit in dealing with my parents and letting them know (without confrontation of course) that I am mature enough to come up with my own thoughts and ideas on things.
Please Continue Writing,
-Tyler
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The Atheist Geek says:
March 30, 2010 at 6:31 PM
Hi Tyler. It’s always great to know that someone finds the advice articles useful. You’re 16, and I’m 37, yet many of our experiences are the same as you’ve described your own. We all get the “you know it’s the Truth” line and the other experiences you mentioned. I think it’s great that you got your position out there up front. Especially if you haven’t been baptized yet (but even if you have been). It sure beats having to be a non-Witness in secret to hide your true feelings.
May I ask how your family took the news? Are they “full fledged” Witnesses?
Thanks for writing.
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Tyler says:
March 30, 2010 at 11:34 PM
Hey Atheist Geek,
Personally I don’t mind answering questions about my family situation or what I had to go through. Some might find it traumatizing to “relive” such experiences but everyone has their own way of coping. Mine just happens to be talking about what I’ve gone through instead of keeping it bottled up.
Much to your obvious surprise (sarcasm), I was met with hostility and the look on my fathers face of betrayal nearly made me want to take what I said back. Things aren’t as easy as that however…..My dad is disfellowshipped from smoking (outside of “the truth” I don’t consider it a private matter).
However my mother is a “full fledged” Witness combat boots and all, who said I was “evil” and I shouldn’t talk to my brother or his friends, or any witness. And both parents thought I should talk to an elder….which instead of answering my religious questions like I expected simply told me why I was wrong to think god didn’t exist.
We both know, (I hope) that witnesses use “proofs” on “exxers”, from the Watchtower, even if we say we don’t believe it. If we repeat ourselves enough times, they seem to think we’re mentally challenged since they can’t see how their wrong.
But I seem to have forgotten to add one more thing, No I am not baptized but my entire life has been situated around JW’s…my parents going so far as to have previously cut me off from “worldy” influences. (Friends). Which you’ll be glad to know no longer occurs.
Hope that answers your question, :)
I’d be glad to hear your story if it’s not already posted on this site, and then you could direct me there, Thanks.
-Tyler
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The Atheist Geek says:
March 31, 2010 at 8:11 AM
There’s a little bio info on my about page (on the top of the web site). I actually got off kinda light compared to most exxers: I wasn’t raised in “the Truth.” I do have Witness in-laws, which is a real peach. Every other convention or so they feel like they have to save me from myself and I’m supposed to enjoy it. As you say, they hit you full force with pseudo science and make believe that they trust fully because it’s all they know. They aren’t supposed to entertain any source of information that contradicts the Society’s.
I would like to suggest something to you if you haven’t already tried it. You’ll find a lot of supportive people at the Jehovah’s Witness Discussion Forum and Moxie’s Jehovah’s Witness Recovery Forum. I haven’t been there in a while, but I’ve been meaning to go back for a visit. Say hi to Moxie for me. There are plenty of people at both places who’ll get you totally. Lots of discussions to peruse, or you can start some of your own. I suggest you introduce yourself to both groups … well, actually, many of them are the same people. But you get my meaning.
Hope to hear from you again.
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Courage says:
October 16, 2010 at 1:31 AM
Very interesting article.
Are evangelist pastors governed or ruled by anyone?
If a Evangelist Pastor is saying one thing about being ‘unmaterialistic’ but harming others in his own family that are catholic by taking everything away from us, is there anyone that we can speak with? Maybe someone that can set him straight.
It seems that either he is mentally unwell or is using the reason of preaching to his advantage…or maybe he actually is doing something good as he claims to save souls except he is taking things against our will and justifying with religion, so it’s a strange situation we don’t how to deal with. As far as we know the Bible says Thou shalt not steal…..thanks for any response…or if there are any suggestions we would be most grateful.
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The Atheist Geek says:
October 16, 2010 at 7:17 AM
Hi Courage.
Bear in mind that I’m not an expert in Catholicism. So when it comes to using the church’s bureaucracy, I’m not the best one to ask. But I can share my experience with the Watchtower Society, which I think most ex-Witnesses can relate to.
I was 18 when I started going to my local Kingdom Hall (a Jehovah’s Witness church) and had studied with an Elder for a couple of years. He had a very controlling and domineering personality, all while seeing himself as very much the opposite. He made me miserable. Gradually, others learned of his behavior and went to the circuit and district overseers about him. They did this because they didn’t expect the other Elders to help out in the least. There were only 2 that most in the congregation felt comfortable in approaching about problems of this type, but they these two were often put on restrictions by our presiding overseer because they were so outspoken. So while these two were Elders, they were easily–and often–slapped down. That left the circuit and district overseers to help.
Note that these people did this on my behalf. I really thought something was about to happen. But nothing did. Except that the overseers saw me as a trouble maker.
That’s when I discovered that the Elders and the overseers were part of the same club. I lost any and all credibility with the body of Elders after that. This was the first major ding that the image I had of the Society suffered at the time. It wasn’t the last.
So I suggest that, if you do use church channels to help with your problem, that you make sure they will actually help. I have no idea how similar these organization’s are in this respect. But that seems like good advice to me.
From your comment, it sounds like this person has real power over you. They’re more just bullying you. Are you a minor?
For more advise, I suggest you search online for a forum–maybe even one specific to Catholics. There are several good ones for ex-Witnesses like myself. So there’s bound to be some out there for groups as large as the Catholic Church, whether they be past or present members.
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2 Responses to Raymond Franz Dead At 88
Opheliagrneyes says:
June 14, 2010 at 2:30 PM
So he died, huh? Well…..
….he ain’t coming back :)
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The Atheist Geek says:
June 14, 2010 at 6:29 PM
I can only wonder if I’m interpreting your comment correctly. Assuming I am, then all I can say is … wow.
That, and neither are you. :^)
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5 Responses to Debate Tactics At Orlando Sentinel’s Web Site Over Jehovah’s Witnesses
Robster says:
June 19, 2010 at 1:08 AM
The deluded christians happily claim that the babble is the worlds best selling book. Like the JW’s, that is probably based on the number of copies printed. It should be based on copies distributed and read, I don’t how they could calculate that accurately. They don’t I’m sure belong to the organisation that audits circulation numbers as I’m sure their claim about their BS magazine would be blown out of the water. By the way, concerning the babble’s claim to being the worlds best seller, has ANYONE actually ever PAID for a copy that that book? In my experience, the churches, babble societies etc. hand them out with gay (?) abandon. As to the question: Is anyone reading the rubbish? From what I see & hear, the xians don’t seem to know whats in their pile of twat, maybe the JW’s do, but those with no interest and there’s lots of us wouldn’t start a fire with it.
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The Atheist Geek says:
June 19, 2010 at 8:56 AM
Not exactly a happy message, but probably a pretty accurate one.
Robster, are you an XJW or an X-Xian of another kind?
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The Sleepy Herm says:
April 18, 2011 at 3:59 PM
You know what’s weird about how the mags are supposedly the most popular in the world? It totally CONTRADICTS
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The Sleepy Herm says:
April 18, 2011 at 4:01 PM
…the idea that Satan keeps getting better at suppressing the “message” as the end of the world goes on. I mean, is it getting better or is it getting worse?
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Robster says:
April 19, 2011 at 2:10 AM
Atheist Geek, sorry about the 8 month delay in getting back to you. I’m an ex-anglican, Church of England in Australia. My family had a reasonably close association with the local church. My brother & I were sent to the church’s primary school, were baptised and confirmed. I’ve had direct experience in seeing the hatred the church, a broad canvas I know, expresses. There’s so much bad about it, the internet has provided a galvanising force for taking on the beast.
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2 Responses to News and Links for Atheists: A cancer diagnosis suspends Christopher Hitchens’ book tour
Robster says:
July 20, 2010 at 2:59 AM
Hey Athiest Geek, you sent me a message a while ago after I posted a comment. I tried to reply but the link failed. Perhaps that’s why no one is getting back to you.
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The Atheist Geek says:
July 20, 2010 at 6:01 AM
Did you use the address on my about page? Please don’t post it where spam bots can read it in here.
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14 Responses to From The AWAKE! Magazine: IS ATHEISM ON THE MARCH?
Truth Be Known says:
September 13, 2010 at 5:43 AM
You and Mr Myers really crack me up with your attempt to make it look like the words from your first quote out of the Awake article belong to the Awake when, after all the highlight and color of what you only want people to see,low and behold,the name of the owner of words,Mr Richard Bernstein,a New York columnist. Now come on,you guys can do better than that.
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The Atheist Geek says:
September 13, 2010 at 8:11 AM
We did do better than that.
1. I finished the quote with “wrote columnist Richard Bernstein.” I’m not sure how much clearer I could have made it than that.
2. I think the article makes it more than clear that the authors agree with Bernstein in principle.
3. Haven’t you noticed that the Society often uses this practice of quoting others whenever possible to make its points? It’s easy and safer to simply quote another to make your point for you like this. When critics call you on it, you can simply say, “We were just quoting that other guy! Don’t blame us!” In reality, the Society did nothing to separate itself from this opinion in the article and clearly agreed with Bernstein. That shouldn’t insulate them from comments on the opinion they’re espousing.
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JWForum says:
September 26, 2010 at 2:32 AM
Regarding the point of how rarely the Watchtower and Awake addresses the top of atheism, the Society’s chief aim is to educate on spiritual matters not on general science. The Awake however does regularly publish articles addressing the wonders of the physical universe and the diversity of life on earth.
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The Atheist Geek says:
September 26, 2010 at 7:05 AM
That wasn’t exactly my point. I had merely observed that the Society doesn’t address the topic of atheists or atheism very often, despite our being in the news so much of late. Nor do they seem to write articles that are intended to reach out to us or convert us. Many ex-Witnesses turned atheists suspect that they have no idea how to approach atheists in this way.
In other words, it was only an observation that I mentioned in the post. I’m not sure why you mention science, as we’re interested in other topics too. (Some atheists are atheists for reasons other than science.) But as I pointed out later in the post, as a publishing company, atheists aren’t the Society’s intended audience. Jehovah’s Witnesses are.
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B.W. says:
June 3, 2013 at 6:43 AM
Well yeah. The Watchtowe and Awake Magazines are filled with religious content and the WBTS wouldn’t publish alot of pro-science stuff due to the fact they are old-earth creationists. Sure the Awake! magazines may publish articles on the wonders of the physical universe and of the diversity of life on earth but that doesn’t mean their information is ‘accurate’. I wonder why the never address the issue of the Jewish and Christian bible’s clear support of slavery?
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Tak says:
November 13, 2010 at 6:18 PM
Hahaha, keep writing! I love this stuff.
I lived in a JW household for about three months as an exchange student and learned all I needed to know about their little cult. I nearly converted until I had a moment of clarity where I realized that I wasn’t thinking of joining them because it was true but because they had filled my head with NOHING but their viewpoints and the only way to feel accepted among them was to regurgitate their dogma.
Afterwards I even did a paper for a psych class on cults and cult mentality. I always challenge them when they come to my door now, especially when they’re with children. Usually they tuck their tails between their legs and slink away.
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jomak says:
November 27, 2010 at 5:07 PM
haha, just last week two Mormons came to my door with this Awake magazine in their hands to warn me that Atheists are on a crusade to spread Atheism. I told them “You mean they’re going to come knocking on my door and pass out their propoganda?” Then closed the door. The sad thing is the irony was probably completely lost on them, of course I bet it wouldn’t have been lost on most atheists crusaders. I’m personally not an Atheist, but I am a reasonable, logical Agnostic. Those crazy Morons!
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Ty says:
December 4, 2010 at 4:18 AM
“I’m personally not an Atheist, but I am a reasonable, logical Agnostic.”
Are you under the impression that those are dichotomous positions?
I myself am both agnostic and atheist. They are not mutually exclusive. They are, in fact, positions taken on two totally different issues. One is an epistemological position. The other is a statement of belief.
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The Atheist Geek says:
December 4, 2010 at 10:40 AM
“I’m personally not an Atheist, but I am a reasonable, logical Agnostic.”
I’m also an agnostic atheist. Or at least that’s how I see myself. There seems to be some disagreements over terminology among different people on these issues.
Many people–including me–grew up with the understanding that atheists are absolute in their belief that there are no gods. Most modern day atheist that I know do not use the word atheist this way. Instead, we see atheism as a broader term the means a lack of belief in gods. That means we draw a line between theism and atheism at belief; if you belief in any gods, even in a vague way as many moderate believers do, you are a theist. If you are not a theist, then you’re an atheist. There is no middle position (which I will explain further down.) So when most of us refer to atheists, we’re actually talking about agnostics, nontheists, and all that.
I’ve heard of some people who consider themselves agnostics who get seriously ticked off by this. If that’s your reaction, I don’t know what to tell you. It is a legitimate definition of the word atheist, which can be found in books and good dictionaries. (Note that some dictionaries don’t include all the possible meanings to all words.)
The word agnostic doesn’t seem to really belong as a middle position, though that’s what many people tend to think it means. Agnosticism is simply the belief that you can’t absolutely prove or disprove the existence of any gods. Since atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods, how that can be a middle or “on the fence” position? That definition is already included in the definition of atheism, too.
I think it’s reasonable to say that the term agnostic can be applied to Christians, atheists, or Muslims who believe that gods cannot be proven or disproven absolutely. In other words, you sound like an agnostic atheist to me if you don’t believe in any gods but also think they cannot be proven/disproven with certainty. I agree with that position and am also an agnostic atheist.
Some people are agnostic Christians because they believe in God but don’t believe he can be proven/disproven with absolute certainty.
Do you see where I’m getting at? Agnosticism isn’t in the same line of thought as atheism or theism. It’s another category unto itself.
You can still technically call yourself an agnostic.
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Ty says:
December 8, 2010 at 7:52 AM
Yes. But I find the use of the word ‘agnostic’ to mean ‘non threatening atheist’ annoying.
Like we’re doing religious people a favor by patting them on the head and saying, “Hey! You might be right!”
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JWitness Forum says:
December 8, 2010 at 9:08 AM
Indeed the Watchtower society’s publications are not produced to reflect what is currently popular in the media or to deal with topics as they rise in popularity but to highlight God’s Kingdom as the hope for mankind. The AWAKE does the same although it of course seeks to deal with wider issues that may be of interest to its readership.
Various aspects of creation are regularly featured in its pages and indeed even in the article here discussed the issues related to what some refer to as “New Atheism” are only used as to introduce the question of whether their position is a reasonable in the light what we see in the universe and the natural world around us.
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The Atheist Geek says:
December 8, 2010 at 6:01 PM
Many of us are former or current Witnesses, so we are very familiar with the literature’s mandate. Still, one would think that the Society wouldn’t be above using today’s headlines where appropriate.
I take it you are responding, in part, to some of comments about the Society not talking much about atheism or atheists in its publications? As an atheist and ex-Witness, that is naturally something I take note of. When they do talk about atheists, they tend to get some facts wrong and generally make the same mistakes other religious groups make. Naturally, I tend to take notice of this as well. Especially when one of my in-laws repeats those mistakes back to me.
That might give you some idea of where I’m coming from with those comments. :-)
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B.W. says:
June 3, 2013 at 6:47 AM
Yes, the Awake! magazines due publish articles on issues of interest to it’s religious readers. I think the Atheists position is reasonable in the light of what we see in the universe and in tha natural world around us. I don’t believe in your god’s ‘kingdom’ as the ‘hope’ for mankind, personally. I see ‘Jehovah’/Yahweh/Allah as a false god like all others personally. I also don’t much care for the Jewish and Christian texts endorsement of slavery which I believe must be acted on if you take the text literally.
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TenaciousD says:
September 16, 2012 at 1:57 PM
This was a great post! Although I’m not a Christian I do collect AWAKE! magazines because unlike its ‘sister’ publication Watchtower, Awake! always has some great non-secular topics (with just a dash of religious context in them), while I avoid the Watchtower magazines like the [insert phrase here]! (No offense intended BTW)
As for the question: Is belief in a Creator intrinsically harmful?, that is a really great well worded question, it doesn’t mention which God or Creator, which can make some feel compelled to feel bad about not believing in God even though which God is never stated. ;)
And every time I hear the word ‘Armageddon’, I always remember the Heaven’s Gate debacle and wish people would stop using that word in a religious context. And don’t even get me started on the second coming, I’m sure lots of people died of old age by just hearing that phrase waiting for ‘the second coming’.
Oh and the Question:Which side do you think time will vindicate? Well from the way I see it, it could take another 1000 years or more to get the result to that question ( ;) ) (IMHO) Are will willing to wait that long? (And don’t tell me its just around the corner :( )
For now I must retreat into my bomb proof bunker awaiting the end of the world. ;)
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5 Responses to Link: Blatant Misquotes In The Origin Of Life Booklet
TJ Encyclo says:
August 30, 2010 at 12:20 PM
Thanks for the link dude !
Here you can find other great rebutals on the creation book : http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Life–How_Did_It_Get_Here%3F
Keep the good work !
Cheers
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The Atheist Geek says:
August 31, 2010 at 4:32 PM
TJ, there are other references here, though they deal with other creationist claims and not just those from the Creation Book. That’s another source worth checking out.
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Ty says:
August 31, 2010 at 3:33 PM
The dishonestly of these publications is incredible.
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The Atheist Geek says:
August 31, 2010 at 4:28 PM
The problems with the old Creation Book played a role in my exit from the WTS, as it has for a number of other XJWs. I finally reached a point where I decided it was time to either go back to the KH or never go back. So I started researching the literature to see if the Society really was as “dishonest” (or at least terribly misinformed) as the critics said. The Creation Book was one of my first research projects.
It would have been better IMO if they’d just put out a brochure like this one, only without the quotes taken out of context or the bad science of the Creation Book. Why not just say, “The Bible says evolution can’t happen, and that’s good enough for us. We don’t need any further proof.” At least that would be perfectly honest, and loads of people would let them off the hook with that.
Still, I guess the Creation Book was a big seller for them — even Richard Dawkins was aware of it and gave a brief overview of its flaws. Maybe that’s why they kept publishing it for a couple decades despite its obvious problems? What can ya do.
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The Sleepy Herm says:
April 18, 2011 at 3:56 PM
Oh man, this is what made me leave…the intellectual dishonesty coupled with the distaste (and total misunderstanding) of science. Really, if scientists who believe in evolution are a bunch of dummies and liars, why does the WT publish whole books containing quotes by them, trying to prove IT’S point on the matter? Doesn’t discrediting scientists defeat that aim? It’s paradoxical.
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3 Responses to The Watchtower Society’s Writing Style: Their Literature’s Most Effective Techniques
Ty says:
October 18, 2010 at 2:57 AM
Yep. So obvious from the outside, so hard to see from the inside.
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Selena says:
October 22, 2010 at 9:08 PM
The Watchtower (for study) is far worse. The study articles are totally designed to keep the mind from straying. The service Watchtower and Awake are the bait for new zombies!!! I think I’m going to ask my in laws for a couple magazines so I can do a little homework. Great post!
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The Sleepy Herm says:
April 18, 2011 at 3:42 PM
I would include loaded language. I mean, you would expect people who talk about how right they are all the time manage to convince people. “It’s the truth” is repeated over and over in one form or another. BTW, I was working on a similar list a while back, I had some better ones I wanted to suggest to you. If I can find the list, I’ll suggest them. I forgot most of them right now though.
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21 Responses to From The November AWAKE! Conclusions On The Articles About Atheism
christianPeper says:
September 25, 2010 at 5:41 PM
By Christian Peper
While atheists claim to be better educated and better informed than most; they are generally ignorant of what cult mind control is. In 2004 I lived with a Jehovah Witness roommate in Arizona that controlled and manipulated me. He took my basic rights away. Mind control tools are powerful but not mysterious. There is no excuse for both atheists and mainstream Christians to be ignorant of cult mind control. Here are some mind control tools cults use: love bombing, loading the language, spying on each other, use of thought stopping, control of information, the collection of blackmail material, fear, mystical manipulation, demand for purity, and considering the doctrine of the cult as more important than the damage it causes.
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Vinny says:
September 25, 2010 at 6:00 PM
The WT Society and Jehovah’s Witnesses are a MAN-originating, men-run, high controlling religious cult-like institution, rather than what they tell people they are (God’s appointed Channel/Organization/People nonsense).
The facts prove without a doubt that God was never behind any of this:
http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm
ALL FROM THEIR OWN LITERATURE WITH DATES AND PAGES TO SEE FOR YOURSELVES!!!
We got False End of the World Predictions all over the place, medical disasterous policies – FORCED on JW’s at risk of extreme shunning.
We got flip flops, blinking lights, wacky science, historical failures, arrogance, judging other religions and people of those religions and LOADS of WT Society embarrassments and humiliations throughout their entire 100+ year history!
God had nothing to do with all that nonsense that was called, “Food from God” by all JW’s even down to this day.
It was WRONG when it first came off the presses!
So why are some today opposed to Jehovah’s Witness and their policies?
DEAD PEOPLE is why.
RUINED LIVES is why.
FALSE PROPHECIES is why.
An arrogant, controlling Religious Institution is why.
They are WRONG ON BLOOD TODAY (for 68 years now).
They are WRONG ON SHUNNING those that simply walk away from the JW religion today. (nowhere in bible)
They are WRONG 607 BCE and 1914.
They were WRONG ABOUT FORBIDDING Vaccinations, Organ Transplants, Alternative Service and much more.
They were wrong on ALL OF THEIR End of World Predictions in writing. Wrong on marital infidelity rules, rape rules, beards, 1935, Beth Sarim and too many things to bother listing here.
Did ((( GOD ))) make all of these terrible decisions to force on all the JW’s as “food at the proper time”, and then change his mind later on?
Or was is just a bunch of MEN, that make up the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses (sitting up in some Brooklyn office somewhere) making these poor decisions, FORCING them on all JW’s and then afterwards conveniently change their mind?
Does God serve Bad Food like this?
Perhaps He is not a very good cook?
Shunning people for disagreements is NOT scriptural!
Shunning people for walking away from the JW faith is NOT scriptural!
This is a CONTROL mechanism. And it often works. It is a gross misapplication of scripture to keep the average JW towing the line.
THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN UNITY AND FORCED UNIFORMITY.
Jw’s are not allowed to even THINK differently.
I WAS a JW, and an elder as well, until recently in 2006 when I walked away. I am very familiar with how they are actually WORSE than most other faiths today. I am shunned for walking away. People today and for the last 80 years have died, without reason, due to the WT medical policies forced on all JW’s.
Each week is filled with a list of JW obligations that basically OWN YOU. You are told what you can read, what movies are acceptable, what association is acceptable, what facial hair is okay. What you can celebrate and cannot. What words you are allowed to use.
What is allowed in your own bedroom with your wife. And too many other things to list here again. Before knowing all the facts and believing they were God’s True Channel, one can go a very long way to justify all of these things. Take away that one true faith belief and so falls the rest.
I have been there and done all that.
JW’s are told they cannot take blood transfusions in situations where they might need one (such as through accidents or complications with surgery, pregnancy or child birth).
So, naturally, more JW’s will die.
Just like this mother died unnecessarily!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/shropshire/7078455.stm
And now her husband has no wife and her two new twins have no mother.
And all for what?
Or this teenager that also DIED: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_midlands/8690785.stm
This is very simple. JW’s NEEDLESSLY die for this sorry blood policy today.
From the same organization that has an entire 100 + year history of similar bad and embarrasing policies.
This is why I suggest to anybody thinking of becoming a JW … to READ READ AND READ UP ON THIS RELIGION FIRST!
The proof will clearly stand out that the JW faith is not what they try to tell people they are!
The facts are Irrefutable.
Vinny
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Patmos Pete says:
September 28, 2010 at 6:50 PM
The third message from heaven…
If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
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The Atheist Geek says:
September 29, 2010 at 7:21 AM
I have no idea what you’re talking about in reference to this article.
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Ty says:
September 28, 2010 at 7:34 PM
“While atheists claim to be better educated and better informed than most; they are generally ignorant of what cult mind control is.”
You base this assertion on what? I’m an atheist, and fairly well versed in cult tactics. Let me guess. You pulled this ‘fact’ out of your ass, didn’t you?
” In 2004 I lived with a Jehovah Witness roommate in Arizona that controlled and manipulated me. He took my basic rights away. Mind control tools are powerful but not mysterious.”
Bummer.
“There is no excuse for both atheists and mainstream Christians to be ignorant of cult mind control.”
Demonstrate that they actually ARE ignorant of those things first.
“Here are some mind control tools cults use: love bombing, loading the language, spying on each other, use of thought stopping, control of information, the collection of blackmail material, fear, mystical manipulation, demand for purity, and considering the doctrine of the cult as more important than the damage it causes.”
You had me right up to mystical manipulation. Care to define what that is?
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Ty says:
September 28, 2010 at 7:35 PM
Vinny, I think you might be spamming the wrong site. This is an Anti-JW site. You are sort of yelling at the wrong people.
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The Atheist Geek says:
September 29, 2010 at 7:25 AM
Ah, I was talking to Patmos Pete. My bad.
Pete, I almost deleted your comment as spam. I think you might want to explain it. There’s about a 100 different interpretations of that scripture.
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The Atheist Geek says:
September 29, 2010 at 7:33 AM
ChristianPeper, I was a bit thrown by your comments as well. Not entirely sure where you’re coming from here.
Many atheists were never part of any cult, so it’s not necessarily our bread and butter as a group. But many do have the tools to recognize it, such as critical reasoning skills.
As for having no excuse for not recognizing cults, I have no idea why you think that or you’re angry about it. These aren’t exactly skills that are taught in high schools nationwide. What’s your angle here?
I guess I’m not clear on what it is your really trying to say or what atheism has to do with that. Or were you just trying to link your comment to the post above by mentioning atheists? Maybe you could explain this more.
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Selena says:
September 30, 2010 at 1:05 AM
I am glad that you said the publications can “feel” imformative. I have to be really careful not to get sucked it. I know what logic and reasoning tell me but fear darn near cripples me. I hope that I can recover from the society!! I can’t wait to read your thoughts on tactics. I have been paying more than the usual attention to witness tactics. As always, thank you for what you do.
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The Atheist Geek says:
September 30, 2010 at 8:03 AM
Selena,
Yeah, ain’t it weird? But the articles are surprisingly formulaic. Even the books are too. I think this has something to do with the fact that the Society has been churning out books for quite a long time and has perfected their technique. So why deviate?
I hope to have something posted about this by next week.
One issue that many XJWs have is a fear of Armageddon and other nagging what-if-they’re-rights. They don’t believe, yet somehow, they can’t shake all their old fears completely. I’m thinking about this subject, too, and would like to make some posts.
Of course, I still like doing the silly posts too…
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Selena says:
October 1, 2010 at 1:30 AM
Ya, the what if they’re rights is a poison in my mind. What is so funny to me is that I know I don’t feel good being a part of the organization yet it continues to fester. I am fairly logical. I realize the chance encounters with witnesses are more likely due to my home and work being in such close proximity to my old congregation. But the fear that had replaced reason for so long sneaks in sometimes. I am very interested in their methods.
The silly stuff is awesome too!
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Shiggity Shwaaa says:
October 27, 2010 at 9:02 PM
Hmmm, I’m not sure where to start, but I suppose saying that I’m a current “JW” is probably a good place. I’ll also throw out there that I was (oh nooooo) “df’d” and inactive for a period of time before that. (I decided I’d get knocked up without being hitched, and I’ll admit it’s one of the best mistakes I ever made, and a lot of my regret about that situation comes from bringing her into the world without her father’s support and blah blah blah not necessarily from the fact that I committed fornication, eww, it sounds so dirty.) BEFORE, the big event (df’d) I’d gone to other churches and even tossed the idea of their NOT being a God around every once in a while. One of my dearest friends (we go back to 2nd grade (20 years) and he is rightly one of the most intelligent guys I know) is an Atheist and we’ve had many conversations over a fine margarita over this very topic. For me, it’s the fact that I don’t feel that something can come from nothing (which in itself is a contradiction, I know, because then God would’ve had to come from something) BUT I truly believe that there is something bigger than us out there (for all I know, because I’m not a scientist or even a theology major nor was I present at the beginning of ‘time’, it’s like Whorton Hears a Who ;) ). So I’ll add that I completely respect others opinions and choices. One of the things about labeling myself a Christian is NOT to judge others, something that I think gets thrown under the bus somewhere. The way I see it we were created with free will and choice – you wanna be gay, go for it. You wanna worship a paramecium? Do it. If you’re going to do it – own it! Right? Anyway, back to the point, I did go to other churches and for ME (this is MY personal opinion and I do NOT expect anyone to obtain or feel anything about it…just for informational purposes ONLY) other churches spent too much time talking about things that weren’t in the Bible. “OHEMGEE, errbody, we’re having a mission trip to Hawaii next week, pay your dues plus a grand to donate to the church!” Personally, I feel (and I was raised a Witness, so I’m not going to lie there is bias in my opinions, nurrr) that if you’re going to teach about the Bible then ya should spend some time READING the Bible. AND YESSSSSSSSSSS, I DO see what you’re saying about the literature (I didn’t study your article, I skimmed it briefly, so forgive me – I’m a Christian AND I may be coming at this from the wrong direction) how can we (as the intended audience) be sure that what they’re saying is being accurately portrayed and is true? We can’t. I mean we can, if I want to go investigate the quotations – they’re there, I’m a reasonably intelligent person, so I can. BUT I think (and granted, I’m not speaking for every single witness out there, because well we’re all different in our own ways) that a large part of the audience depends on faith. And really, even being as skeptical, critical, and realistic as I can be sometimes (being realistic and Christian, I suppose is a bit of an oxymoron to an Atheist, I KNOW :D ) But as to some of the posts above, I don’t think Jehovah’s Witnesses (as a whole) are master manipulators or any worse than any other Christian Denomination – they get such a bad reputation from people that don’t actually do what they’re preaching to do. There are hypocrites across the board (atheists that celebrate Christmas, say whaaa?) and I just really felt the need to throw a few things into the mix. Even if they didn’t follow any specific order…I’ve just learned that if you’re ticking a lot of people off (including some other extremists, etc) you might be doing something right. Then again you may just be “pissing in someone’s cheerios” and asking for it. Anyway, like I said, I’m always open to what others say and feel about the religious path I’ve chosen (to an extent, somethings are just annoying of course), I suppose I welcome a healthy amount of debate, but I also respect the point where people just need to agree to disagree – for the sake of mankind and peace that’d be something I wish everyone would learn.
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Shiggity Shwaaa says:
October 27, 2010 at 9:08 PM
But I suppose the point I was trying to make (and got distracted with my not so awesome story telling skills) is that you may be right, but not everybody does just what the GB tells them or just because this was printed somewhere. I do it because I truly feel that they’re right on the Bible’s teachings and I respect that they might not have it “right” all the time, but who does? Maybe their literature is intended to make the people who already believe it feel better and reassured, but to each his own? And really wouldn’t you rather have people out preaching that you’re not going to burn for eternity for not believing in God and just preach what you already know and try to spread HOPE for those that need/want it. From the few Atheists I’ve talked to, living without a belief in God is living a life without hope for anything past death…at least we’re not walking around damning people to hell for it, right?
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The Atheist Geek says:
October 28, 2010 at 7:19 PM
Hi Shiggity Shwaa. First, thanks for leaving a genuinely decent and respectful comment. I do not see this as a hate site, or an anti-JW site, but I still get cursed out and flipped off on occasion, sometimes for stuff I merely linked to and didn’t even write myself.
Second, it sounds like you felt I may have been overgeneralizing somewhere about JWs in my post. You said you wanted to tell me that not all JWs are mindless zombies who obey the WT without question. I agree that this is true. I haven’t completely reread the article recently, but I don’t remember trying to make that point intentionally. I should probably mention that I don’t hate JWs and am married to one, in fact. I’m not a fan of the WTS, but I can’t even claim to hate the org. I dislike it, just as I dislike other religions that are–in my opinion–fundamentalist and overly authoritarian. I also dislike the way some JWs have treated me and others over the years, but they do not represent every JW in the world. Also, I have known and known of JWs who are aware of the manipulations I bring up in the post. Yet they remain loyal to the org, even if they know that “the truth” it teaches can easily be brought into question.
In other words, as an XJW, I know that all JWs are not alike. Unfortunately, it’s hard to write an article that doesn’t sometimes sound like it’s generalizing about a group of people too much. Especially if it’s a group you, the reader, happen to be a part of. The English language just doesn’t do that one too well, I’m afraid. It would simply be too hard to read the whole thing if I tried to do that. Also, while there are certainly some JWs who are moderate and open minded compared to the more “die hard” believers, for many of us, the majority seem to be of the “obey the WT at all costs!” variety. Whether that’s good or bad depends on your values, a topic a briefly addressed in the post above. To me, it’s a bad thing. But I gladly admit some of not this way. Good for them.
Whether the way the Society writes and researches its articles is good or bad is another judgment call based on one’s values. For mine, it’s bad. I think I explained that distinction in the post as well. But as you said, you only skimmed it and may not have seen those comments in context.
I do it because I truly feel that they’re right on the Bible’s teachings and I respect that they might not have it “right” all the time, but who does? Maybe their literature is intended to make the people who already believe it feel better and reassured, but to each his own?
I can only partially agree with you here. Remember that I was directing my comments primarily at the Society and its writers. The Society frequently asserts that it is right, that it has been given authority by Jesus, and that anyone disobeying it risks death at Armageddon. That’s not a very liberal, flexible, or “but who does get it right all the time?” kinda attitude. That’s an absolute one. So while it’s good for you that you’re flexible this way (depending on which atheists you talk to) I think your attitude isn’t consistent with the one the Society is trying to foment. It is the Society’s attitude toward its writing, its facts, and its authority that really came into play here. Not the ones you have expressed for yourself, which I’m fine with, BTW.
And really wouldn’t you rather have people out preaching that you’re not going to burn for eternity for not believing in God and just preach what you already know and try to spread HOPE for those that need/want it. at least we’re not walking around damning people to hell for it, right?
I disagree here as well. I don’t consider being killed at Armageddon because the organization doesn’t approve of me to be much of an improvement over going to Hell, though I can appreciate a final death is probably better than being tortured for all eternity. To me, both are threats: comply with our demands or you’re really gonna get it. So I rate them about the same.
As to your comment about providing hope, please consider this from another angle. Do con artists provide hope when they pretend to let people talk to dead loved ones? Do companies running infomercials that charge you $100 bucks for miracle cures offer you hope, when in fact, those items are worthless? I don’t think they do. I think they take advantage of our need for hope. It is false hope. And they benefit from our desperation at our expense. So no, I don’t think that’s a good thing. Not that the Society is unique in offering false hope, let me say. Still, this does not impress me.
From the few Atheists I’ve talked to, living without a belief in God is living a life without hope for anything past death
I think you’ll find that most atheists aren’t bothered by this. It’s not as if everyone is necessarily going to go wherever they believe they will go after they die. If we atheists are right, then it doesn’t matter if we’re JWs or not. Everyone’s life will simply end when they die and that’ll be it for them. So long as we’re atheists who don’t believe in an afterlife, this is kind of a moot point for us. I think it would be great if there were some way we could be immortal and happy forever. I just don’t think any religion can deliver on this promise.
PS–(One more for the road) Christmas is also a secular holiday, not just a pagan or Christian one. I don’t see anything hypocritical about an atheist celebrating that. :) I don’t because I find it a pain in the neck, but as you said, to each their own.
Have a good one Shiggity.
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Shiggity says:
October 29, 2010 at 9:17 PM
I can imagine you get the not so cheery side of things from time to time and probably several people that want to condemn or save you, even. But just one quick note – I don’t believe that the Society says “You must be one of JW’s or you will suffer a horrible, excruciating death at Armageddon and be eaten by birds (was that your site, or someone else’s? Sorry can’t be sure.)” I know that the TMS has changed a lot just from when I was a ‘kid’ (I’m 26 now). It used to be that people would put their foot in the door and try to shove “the message” down your throat and that was typically okay. They’re trying to teach some tact now, maybe it’ll help us redeem ourselves some. I feel like the part that gets lost with some people is that we’re not trying to convert people; we’re trying to promote Bible reading and a personal relationship with God. The Bible teaches that it is NOT our place to judge others AND WE cannot read hearts. With that said, I don’t feel that it’s wise to preach otherwise. I feel like that is something that comes from…the less educated? But maybe I just see close-mindedness as less educated. As far as my personal opinion goes and from what I feel that the Society teaches as well as the Bible (granted, I can’t say for sure) Jehovah is the reader of hearts and when that time comes it’s up to him to make those choices. I don’t believe just because someone doesn’t bare the label JW that makes them any worse of a person or stand any less of a chance. I feel that there are some that have experiences with Witnesses that scar their hearts and turn them off to what the Witnesses preach. For example I was molested by a “Witness” thankfully, I haven’t had the issue that some people have seemed to have (I’ve read some pretty nasty stuff about Witnesses and molestation, etc online) and that perv was df’d and is now in jail for life, thanks to our taking the stand in court. BUT I can imagine how some people would be completely scarred by that experience had things been handled otherwise. Ok, so that was a bit longer than a quick note, but I felt that was something that was important enough to mention. And I get what you’re saying about false hope, but I suppose that is a bit of a Catch-22. You have to not believe it for it to be a false hope. Logically, I get that believing in a supreme being in a realm that we can’t even reach as humans is a bit far fetched, but it does help people have a moral compass that they might not otherwise have, sadly. And I didn’t come to the conclusion that God was real by going to meetings or being scared of what would happen if I disobeyed him, so to me I don’t feel I’m being “sold” on something, but I suppose that people that get their palms read or what have you, don’t feel they’re being sold on something either…so with that said. I’ll have to ask for forgiveness if parts of this post don’t make sense – I get distracted easily with my three year old running around.
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The Atheist Geek says:
October 30, 2010 at 12:04 AM
Thanks for coming back and giving another reply. Still, I do think we’re on very different pages, so to speak. No offense intended, but I have to say that–to me at least–I really think you’re getting something from the literature that most aren’t. Or maybe it’s coming from somewhere else?
At any rate, I don’t think I ever said anything about being eaten by birds, though I seem to remember this was suggested by the Society itself at one time. I don’t think this wasn’t a prediction, but rather one idea of how Jesus might deal with the billions of dead bodies after Armageddon. And I have to tell you that, yes, the Society’s position is very clear that anyone who isn’t a good, loyal JW will die at Armageddon. That has been their mantra for a very long time. It’s kind of the point, really, and all over their literature. I honestly don’t know where you’re coming from here. They have, on very rare occasions, said there might be a slim chance that some could make it if they never had the chance to learn from JWs, but their general position has always been that even being one of JWs is not a guarantee. I’m afraid you lost me there.
I also have to disagree with you on the goal of converting people. That is the point of evangelism. It is certainly true that some Witnesses may personally see their mission in the light you describe. You are clearly such a person. But when you say that isn’t the Society’s intent, again, I wonder if you are reading the same literature we are reading. No offense intended, but I’m starting to think you are imposing your own views on the org and seeing it the way you wish it were. I really don’t think there’s much room for doubt on either of these points. It’s in black and white in the pages of their writing.
I will give you something, Shiggity. There have been some changes in the way they deal with field service and we XJWs have noticed them. However, I would characterize these changes as minor. They are more likely to simply canvas a neighborhood and leave brochures in people’s doors without bothering them than they used to be. I haven’t noticed much else. The reality is that many Witnesses are aggressive proselytizers for the same reason that many salespeople are aggressive; it works. But only on certain people.
Regarding personal experiences, I appreciate your sharing this information with us about your past on the site. And your acknowledging that many XJWs have been treated badly and that XJWs aren’t automatically bad people. (We get that one a lot from other JWs.) But just so there’s no misunderstanding here, our disbelief in the Society as the one, true religion usually runs deeper than that. We have plenty of facts and reasoning to go with our position. Still, I acknowledge that for many, bad experiences were the beginning of the end.
I don’t think you get my full message about false hope. Any hope that is untrue is false. Period. In that respect, it doesn’t matter if you believe it or not. As I said, it’s not as if everyone gets to choose which afterlife they go to. People often say things like, “Reality is what you make it.” But that’s not really true. Reality is absolute. It is what it is. Only our perceptions of it and our opinions are open to debate. Of course, that’s all we really have. Atheists included. But if the facts don’t support the Society’s teachings, then that casts serious doubt on whether their teachings are true at all.
As for religion and morality, you really don’t want to get an atheist started on that one. :) I will leave it at this: you don’t need gods to be moral. Maybe a psychopath does, but the rest of us shouldn’t. If we do, then I think something is wrong. Fortunately, you only suggested that it helps. I’m sure you know that gods and religions also encourage bad behavior, so this is pretty debatable. As I said, don’t get us started. :)
Anyway, nice talking with you Shiggity. We don’t have to agree on anything, obviously. But I’m always for mutual understanding and all that hippy stuff. :) Not trying to set you straight, as it were, only telling you that I really don’t see these things the same as you do. I don’t hear this sort of interpretation from JWs often, so that’s interesting. If a bit frustrating, I suspect, for other XJWs who stumble across our conversation. Maybe some will choose to join in.
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Shiggity says:
October 29, 2010 at 9:19 PM
Oh – and because I’m really talented and forget everything – thanks, have a great one, too! And on behalf of the Witnesses that try to make you feel like less of a person just because you don’t share their beliefs, I apologize. It may not be my right, but judging and treating you badly is not a way to treat anyone. Unless they kick your dog…jokes, only kidding.
And your site is interesting…I’ll leave it at that :)
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Georgia Witt says:
December 24, 2010 at 12:00 AM
Hmmm, I’m not sure where to start, but I suppose saying that I’m a current “JW” is probably a good place. I’ll also throw out there that I was (oh nooooo) “df’d” and inactive for a period of time before that. (I decided I’d get knocked up without being hitched, and I’ll admit it’s one of the best mistakes I ever made, and a lot of my regret about that situation comes from bringing her into the world without her father’s support and blah blah blah not necessarily from the fact that I committed fornication, eww, it sounds so dirty.) BEFORE, the big event (df’d) I’d gone to other churches and even tossed the idea of their NOT being a God around every once in a while. One of my dearest friends (we go back to 2nd grade (20 years) and he is rightly one of the most intelligent guys I know) is an Atheist and we’ve had many conversations over a fine margarita over this very topic. For me, it’s the fact that I don’t feel that something can come from nothing (which in itself is a contradiction, I know, because then God would’ve had to come from something) BUT I truly believe that there is something bigger than us out there (for all I know, because I’m not a scientist or even a theology major nor was I present at the beginning of ‘time’, it’s like Whorton Hears a Who ;) ). So I’ll add that I completely respect others opinions and choices. One of the things about labeling myself a Christian is NOT to judge others, something that I think gets thrown under the bus somewhere. The way I see it we were created with free will and choice – you wanna be gay, go for it. You wanna worship a paramecium? Do it. If you’re going to do it – own it! Right? Anyway, back to the point, I did go to other churches and for ME (this is MY personal opinion and I do NOT expect anyone to obtain or feel anything about it…just for informational purposes ONLY) other churches spent too much time talking about things that weren’t in the Bible. “OHEMGEE, errbody, we’re having a mission trip to Hawaii next week, pay your dues plus a grand to donate to the church!” Personally, I feel (and I was raised a Witness, so I’m not going to lie there is bias in my opinions, nurrr) that if you’re going to teach about the Bible then ya should spend some time READING the Bible. AND YESSSSSSSSSSS, I DO see what you’re saying about the literature (I didn’t study your article, I skimmed it briefly, so forgive me – I’m a Christian AND I may be coming at this from the wrong direction) how can we (as the intended audience) be sure that what they’re saying is being accurately portrayed and is true? We can’t. I mean we can, if I want to go investigate the quotations – they’re there, I’m a reasonably intelligent person, so I can. BUT I think (and granted, I’m not speaking for every single witness out there, because well we’re all different in our own ways) that a large part of the audience depends on faith. And really, even being as skeptical, critical, and realistic as I can be sometimes (being realistic and Christian, I suppose is a bit of an oxymoron to an Atheist, I KNOW :D ) But as to some of the posts above, I don’t think Jehovah’s Witnesses (as a whole) are master manipulators or any worse than any other Christian Denomination – they get such a bad reputation from people that don’t actually do what they’re preaching to do. There are hypocrites across the board (atheists that celebrate Christmas, say whaaa?) and I just really felt the need to throw a few things into the mix. Even if they didn’t follow any specific order…I’ve just learned that if you’re ticking a lot of people off (including some other extremists, etc) you might be doing something right. Then again you may just be “pissing in someone’s cheerios” and asking for it. Anyway, like I said, I’m always open to what others say and feel about the religious path I’ve chosen (to an extent, somethings are just annoying of course), I suppose I welcome a healthy amount of debate, but I also respect the point where people just need to agree to disagree – for the sake of mankind and peace that’d be something I wish everyone would learn.
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The Atheist Geek says:
December 24, 2010 at 8:44 AM
Hi Georgia. I will agree with you that the WTS isn’t so different than other religions in some ways. Many religions are prone to manipulating the facts and even unfairly casting other groups they don’t like as baddies. I write about the Society because I’m an XJW, not because I think they’re especially bad. The org is part of my experience. I’m married to a Witness and have Witness in-laws. These other groups are not part of my experience in any meaningful way.
I also agree with you about it being a matter of faith for the Society’s followers. Some Witnesses have faith in the org because they have faith in Jehovah/Jesus. Others are truly just plain loyal to the org despite being aware of its flaws. (Though many of them will understandably only admit to those flaws amongst themselves.) I suspect some stay in it because their families are in it and they haven’t been drawn to go elsewhere. It’s simply what they know, so they stay.
Here’s the thing. One of my big points is the difference in values this represents. I believe that faith in the org is valued more than reality here. For them, it’s acceptable to distort reality (or the facts as they are understood to exist) in service of maintaining and strengthening that faith. I believe this is hypocritical. If it’s about God, and God is a reality, then distorting reality is unfair–even dangerous–for God’s believers. If the Society is misleading people (and distorting the facts is misleading people) then they could be condemning them as well by robbing those believers of the chance to pick the right religion.
Of course, I don’t believe in any gods. But in my case, I would say they are condemning their followers to a delusion: the delusion that the Society’s teachings are well supported and perfectly reasonable. When, in reality, the facts usually contradict the Society. As an atheist, I value full disclosure and see this sort of deception as unfair and self serving. Maybe even power hungry. It keeps the believers believing and donating. It keeps the followers following instead of allowing them to discover other ways of life.
Still, as you say, there are plenty of other religions doing some or all of these things. For me, that isn’t an excuse. It doesn’t make it OK. It just means the Society isn’t all that unique (despite its claims). My values tell me this is a bad thing.
Thanks for your comment.
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G.O.I. says:
May 25, 2011 at 8:28 PM
This is the first time that I have commented on this site. Just so you know where I am coming from…I was raised as a Jehovah’s witness from the age of 6. I was baptized at the age of 16, and disassociated myself at the age of 22. I am now an atheist, though this was clearly not always the case. I have some family that are still witnesses, and even some friends. I hold no animosity toward Jehovah’s Witnesses, unfortunately, I cannot say the same for the Watchtower Society. Regardless of the GB’s motive, their teaching and tactics have caused harm in several lives.
I wanted to specifically address Shiggity. I appreciate you liberal view, however, from years of experience, I can say that the Organization and their teachings, are not inline with such liberality. I would even venture to caution you, because such a view could get you into trouble with the Organization, and even cause you to be Df’d again.
I am not trying to change your beliefs, I would never (accept when I was a witness, believing that it was the only means of salvation of people) attempt to do such a thing. I would, however, encourage you to do your own research and become extremely familiar with the organizations that you represent. Even when it comes to the Organizations publications, do some external research into the subjects that they are speaking on, and the sources that they site (they have been known to misrepresent certain people and works that they quote).
As far as what you said:
“But just one quick note – I don’t believe that the Society says ‘You must be one of JW’s or you will suffer a horrible, excruciating death at Armageddon and be eaten by birds (was that your site, or someone else’s? Sorry can’t be sure.)’”
The Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22 “Are You Prepared for Survival?” Paragraph 8 says:
“During the final period of the “ancient world” that perished in the Flood, Noah was a faithful “preacher of righteousness.” (2 Peter 2:5) In these last days of the present system of things, Jehovah’s people are making known God’s righteous standards and are declaring good news about the possibility of surviving into the new world. (2 Peter 3:9-13) Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization.”
From a purely atheist vs. Christian standpoint, I have to say that our views differ drastically, but I think that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I agree that you really shouldn’t get an atheist started on the morality issue, since that seems to be overused as a fallible argument for Christianity. It was good to read your post since you were coming from a place of honest discussion, and not what is typically seen.
A.G., I, too, only skimmed this article, but have read others on your site. You are completely right, the Watchtower and Awake are not meant to be read by us. I don’t know that the reason for this is because of atheism though. The publications are meant to be studied and compared with a skewed view of they hold the truth, and outside resources are either wrong, or misguided. When we stop looking at the publications as holding the ultimate authority (whether we are atheist or not) then we can see through the propaganda and conversion tactics.
Thanks for the information.
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The Atheist Geek says:
May 26, 2011 at 9:48 AM
GOI, I like to thank people for good comments left on the site. Yours is one of them. Thanks for that.
I did want to clarify something. When I spoke about the article being for JWs and potential converts, not for atheists, it was for a slightly different reason than the one you picked up on. I understand that you only skimmed the article, so I wanted to explain that.
You would think the WTS would write atheist articles in an attempt to convert atheists. But I haven’t been able to find such an article no matter how far back I’ve gone. That’s interesting to me.
Instead, these articles always seem to be about how wrong they think atheists are. The writers will try to establish this in ways that will only raise the eyes of many atheists. Especially “book atheists” who read a lot about philosophy and logic. Because, by our standards, their arguments against atheism are very bad. Many JWs and other Christians will probably assume their points are correct, however. As an atheist, that only makes it more annoying for someone like me.
Clearly, from start to finish, we’re not their intended audience. Yet I was also reviewing the article by the standards an atheist would use. So I was acknowledging the contradiction.
Thanks again for the commnet, GOI.
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44 Responses to From the AWAKE! Magazine: “I WAS RAISED AN ATHEIST.”
Ty says:
September 21, 2010 at 6:20 PM
Man, some random scientist had an emotional reaction that led to changing his mind about belief in god? Wow, I am totally convinced!
Forget evidence! The most compelling argument the WTS has ever heard is, “Does this make sense to you? If no, then GOD!”
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The Atheist Geek says:
September 22, 2010 at 6:37 PM
I really think the Society’s literature is more about reaffirming what JWs already “know” (believe, actually) and making them feel good about it. Also, there’s the need for something to talk about when they come to your door and offer you a book or a magazine.
We atheists usually want to be convinced, or at least allowed to make up our own minds. That means you give us all the pertinent facts, all sides of all arguments, instead of telling us what we’re supposed to believe.
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Ty says:
September 23, 2010 at 9:34 PM
Also, are we supposed to see this guy as an authority figure because he’s a scientist? I’m fine with that if that’s what they’re saying, but I must then point out that scientists as a group have the highest percentage of atheists out of all education levels.
So, WTS, you can point to the anomalous individual scientist who went from lack of belief to belief. I will point to the much larger majority who move from faith to atheism the greater their science education is.
Appeals to authority are a two edged sword, guys.
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Chris John says:
October 13, 2010 at 7:29 AM
I used to be an atheist until I realised that it was an untenable position. I don’t understand how anyone can define a concept like a god. Even more so I don’t see how different people can have the same concept of a god. Why a god should want to be worshipped is another mystery as is the concept of prayer. Everything in the Universe seems to work by itself in mathematical precision or in at least statistical certainty. Science as a philosophy has created the modern world and makes predictions that can be tested. Science does not make sense, it is not believable, but it works with or without our faith. Religion makes sense, gives comfort but provides no new knowledge.
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The Atheist Geek says:
October 13, 2010 at 6:37 PM
Chris John,
Atheists often hear from people who claim they used to be atheists until they had a change of heart. We tend to view these stories with a little suspicion as evangelists often make up stories like these. Not saying you’re lying here, but if you’re dealing with a room full of atheists, this might not be your best opening line. And no, I’m not asking you prove it. Just sayin’ so you’re aware of it.
I wasn’t totally clear on what the rest of your post was really driving at. You said that you eventually realized that atheism was an “untenable position,” but I don’t see how any of the comments which followed support that. I also disagreed with most of them.
I don’t want to be an old meanie and start picking your comment to pieces or anything like that. Still, I guess I was expecting some big finish that would tie it all together. Instead, it felt like you left it incomplete. I almost thought you were switching your mind at the end and saying you didn’t believe in any gods after all. If you could straighten me out on all that, I’ll address your comments in full afterward.
I’ll give you a few days or so to respond. If you don’t, I’ll assume you’ve moved on.
Thanks for reading.
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Andy says:
December 4, 2010 at 9:45 AM
Hmm, this website is fairly ironic… moaning about publications from the “religions” yet you make your own publication damning everyone else apart from your own…uh…belief?
You’re all as bad as each other.
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The Atheist Geek says:
December 4, 2010 at 10:54 AM
Andy,
I have no idea what you are talking about, nor any idea what you read that would make you react this way. What publication of mine are you talking about? Where have I damned all religions?
If you’re going to launch an attack and come out swinging like that, you leave us only with the impression that you’re freaking out over a knee jerk reaction to something you probably misunderstood. If you want to resolve something, set something straight, or anything else constructive, you’ll have to do better than that. If these are not your goals, then why did you post any comment at all unless it’s just to lash out? (In other words, “moan” about it.) Is that all you wanted to do?
If so, I’m disappointed too. Beyond that, I have no idea how to take your comment because I don’t know what you’re talking about.
If you’re reasonable, I’ll be reasonable in return about your comments. Why not come back and make something better out of this than how you left it?
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Sandra says:
December 4, 2010 at 4:30 PM
I actually read the article before the interview. The point is that nor atheism nor false religion has bought on a better world. What I understood from the interview is that even a scientist, a very intellectual person with lots of knowledge can believe in a creator. I do believe that the world would be a much better place without “false” religion because that’s what it is– false– it does not teach the truth about god and what he condemns/approves . This is my opinion and I can sincerely tell you that I have a very satisfying And happy life believing in a creator and believing in what science has to offer. From what I have learned in school science proves that a creator exists. I have faith in both
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The Atheist Geek says:
December 4, 2010 at 6:19 PM
“The point is that [neither] atheism nor false religion has bought on a better world. What I understood from the interview is that even a scientist, a very intellectual person with lots of knowledge can believe in a creator.”
I was wondering: did this really surprise you? Or rather, did you once see these as mutually exclusive things? It might be interesting if you could expand on that a little more. Why would they be exclusive at all? Even if were contradictory, that wouldn’t stop people from having a kind of “faith” in both, which you say you have.
“From what I have learned in school science proves that a creator exists.”
This doesn’t surprise me very much, though I would have preferred a few examples of what you meant specifically. If you’re trying to impart a message to us (and I think you are given the tone of your comment) it might help if you could offer at least one or two.
Generally, I often find that the line of reasoning people take to reach a conclusion like that is … well … kind of a stretch. People often overlook the things which disprove or weaken their beliefs while focusing only on the things that seem to reinforce them. In schools, it’s sometimes teachers who do this. They leave out the equally import problems while sharing their line of reasoning with their students–students who assume their teachers have the whole picture. I often see this sort of cherry picking in books. But if you dig deeper, you usually find it’s untrue. Or at least I have so far.
Not meaning that as a put down on your viewpoint, though. Only explaining why statements like that don’t go very far with me. Again, if you’d care to expand on your comment, I’ll consider anything you want to share. It’s hard to offer a response or reaction until then.
As to neither “atheism nor false religion has bought on a better world” I would say that this has no bearing on which of them is true. Maybe nobody has it right.
Either way, I don’t think your statement was very fair. We’ve yet to see an atheistic society unless you think Communism is somehow linked to atheism per se. To me, the problems of Communism are problems with … well … Communism. A secular atheist country hasn’t really been given a chance to exist yet. Still, anything run by humans will have problems. Maybe that’s why people keep wishing for a (hopefully) benevolent divine autocracy to take over for them. It’s an easy out for us. God does all the heavy lifting. And, in some belief systems, all the killing at Armageddon.
Are you a JW yourself? If not, what do you consider to be a “true religion?” And how do you know it’s true if you have one?
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Ty says:
December 8, 2010 at 7:44 AM
Not totally true AG. Sweden is one of the most secular countries on earth, with only about 10% of Swedish citizens claiming that religion is important in their lives.
It also happens to be a quite successful country, with poverty and crime and levels the US would be envious of, and one of the highest literacy rates in the world.
In fact, looking at the graphs of religious belief in first world nations, there is a pretty clear correlation between secularism and prosperity. Or, perhaps, between lack of prosperity and religious faith.
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The Atheist Geek says:
December 8, 2010 at 8:21 AM
I think an argument can be made that Sweden isn’t an example of a completely secular country for a few reasons. AFAIK, it wasn’t designed to be secular from top to bottom, it’s culture just sort of evolved or leaned that way over time. It also has a national religion and a Church of Sweden.
So while its citizens are WAY more secular than those in the US, I don’t think it’s quite an atheist mecca. It may be the closest thing around, though. Believers will still claim it is somehow reaping the benefits of religious world culture and the countries far more religious past.
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Ty says:
December 8, 2010 at 2:36 PM
According to my friend from Sweden, even mentioning what religion you are is enough to keep you from being elected to public office.
Compared to the US? Sounds like an atheism Mecca to me.
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The Atheist Geek says:
December 8, 2010 at 6:01 PM
No argument there.
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tony says:
December 10, 2010 at 4:51 PM
Like someone pointed out, it think the point in the interview was to show that a highly educated individual could believe in a creator. Its a an attempt by the society to deflect popular claims that those believing in God are brainwashed church-going iliterates.
The mans journey from atheism to theism was compressed to two pages. As a result not enough information could have been provided to completely detail his reasoning, I think asking the man to personally give you the full story would be interesting.
In the interview it can be estimated that he started seriously questioning evolution in 1970. From that time to the time the magazine was printed i.e 2010, alot of new discoveries supposedly reasserting evolution as a fact have arisen. However the man is yet to change his mind. Why?
I think its because whatever this man saw in his studies of nerves synapses showed too much evidence of purposeful design. No where in the article has he come out to strongly attack evolution, he only asserts that evidence for creation is stronger.
I live in africa and we have a saying, If in the daylight you see a roach in your house then there must be thousands hiding in the kitchen that coming at night.
If out of a thousand rivers you see one flowing uphill, which one would you investigate?
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The Atheist Geek says:
December 10, 2010 at 5:48 PM
Like someone pointed out, it think the point in the interview was to show that a highly educated individual could believe in a creator. Its a an attempt by the society to deflect popular claims that those believing in God are brainwashed church-going iliterates.
This doesn’t really change my views on the article, but I can go with that.
I believe I mentioned a couple times in this series that there is a sizable difference of values at work here. The Society and many of its readers are looking for different things than someone like myself is looking for when I pick up a magazine. I also acknowledge that I, as an exJW turned atheist, am not their target audience.
The mans journey from atheism to theism was compressed to two pages. As a result not enough information could have been provided to completely detail his reasoning, I think asking the man to personally give you the full story would be interesting.
I agree. It might have even improved my review. :-)
No where in the article has he come out to strongly attack evolution, he only asserts that evidence for creation is stronger.
This is often the part where evolutionists/atheists and believers/creationists fall out of step with one another. We certainly disagree on what constitutes real evidence. It’s hard to change another person’s mind about something when you try to reason with them your way and they just kinda shrug because they’re unimpressed.
This is what both sides have more or less been doing to one another.
Nonetheless, thanks for sharing your comments.
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mims says:
January 4, 2011 at 11:12 AM
I noticed you like to say right after tearing apart a comment that’s non-atheistic that you don’t want to do it or you won’t yet…
You are also right to say that these types of articles aren’t designed to re-convince ex JWs. I think this article and most of the magazine was about having a choice in believing in a creator or not, for me it brought out that you don’t have to follow the masses, or the majority, it’s okay to stand out.
Like the professor, you had all kinds of information that led you to you’re conclusion but you made the choice to believe it or not.
I think the title on the awake speaks volumes, its about people who jump on a bandwagon without actually knowing it’s destination or route for that matter. I know people whom if asked why they don’t believe would simply say because of science. Is that a satisfactory answer, some of these people only have basic scientific knowledge that is secondary school biology and what is reported on the news. Its never about going out and doing your own search. That’s what the professor did, that’s what you did. And other people are entitled to that.
remember something from the magazine, both atheism and theism require faith…they are all the same to me both just trying to convince people to match to their tune instead of making their own minds up.
do excuse any grammar or spelling etc mistakes i’m trying to tone down my vocabulary for my own reasons.
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The Atheist Geek says:
January 4, 2011 at 12:32 PM
“I noticed you like to say right after tearing apart a comment that’s non-atheistic that you don’t want to do it or you won’t yet…”
I didn’t quite understand this comment. Maybe you could tell me which comments you were referring to, and then I could respond better?
I will say that if someone posts a comment that’s aggressively reactionary or angry, I certainly reserve the right to fire back at them. I try not to take stances like “all religious people are stupid” or “all JWs must be crazy.” And I try to return respectful comments with respect. But I’m not going to cower in a corner if someone comes after me, either. I will stand up for myself. I will also admit it if the person shows me where I was wrong.
Bear in mind that written conversations like email or blog comments tend to be taken as meaner or angrier than the original author intended. I try to consider this when I answer comments. Anyone’s comments-including mine-can seem hostile when they’re only meant to be no-nonsense and straightforward by the author. My comment to Chris John wasn’t meant to be mean or cruel, for instance. I was pointing out where I disagreed and asking the author to respond. If they did not, I simply assumed they had said their peace and felt better for it, which often happens. People often drop comments to get gripes off their chest and then go without bothering to check for a response.
Regarding the rest of your comments, you’re welcome to a different opinion than mine about anything. I don’t think anyone is really saying that we don’t have a choice in believing in a creator or not. I certainly think it’s OK to stand out. JWs do this. So do atheists.
I’m not entirely sure what you mean about “people who jump on a bandwagon without actually knowing it’s destination.”
Atheism and theism both being about faith: I think that depends on how broadly you define faith. If you define faith very broadly–so broadly it includes ideas like trusting experts, researchers, or even evidence, for instance–then atheists probably have faith too. No one can know everything or even research everything, so we are required to filter out true info from fake or self service info. To me, you go with the best you have. We probably disagree on what that is. It might be the Bible for you. Everything I know about the Bible tells me there’s plenty of reasons for doubting it. What can you say about that, really?
Note, however, that you can only broaden the meaning of a word like faith so far before it loses any useful meaning. Faith and belief are two words that get treated this way often in discussions like these. Same can be said for atheists and fundamentalists.
Cheers.
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tony says:
January 4, 2011 at 2:50 PM
AG, May i ask what made you become a JW and then later an ex JW?
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The Atheist Geek says:
January 4, 2011 at 7:45 PM
That’s a bit of a long one, Tony. My comments are already long enough! You can get some more info at my About page (click on the “about” button on the top right of the site) but much of that is about going from believer to nonbeliever. So I’ll say this, and then, after you’ve checked the entry on my about page, I can fill in other details if you have more questions.
I think the short answer is that the Society was too authoritarian for me. I think–on some level–I thought I was dealing with a slightly different governing body than the one I was actually getting the day I signed up. Of course, it’s not all that clear that the GB is really calling the shots these days. But after 5-6 years, my delusion was shattered when I started reading the same stuff in the mags that our local elders had been saying all along. In the words of Eric Cartmen, it wasn’t just the locals who were telling me to “obey [their] authoritah!” Only I hadn’t fully accepted that until I started seeing it incontrovertibly on the pages of their magazines. I had seen problems, but had blamed them on the very conservative local Elders. I had also gone from very happy to very depressed during my 5.-6 years. Something needed to change, and suddenly, I wasn’t sure why I was hanging on to the org anymore.
So I stopped going to meetings to sort my head out. And the Witnesses came after me with a vengeance for it. It took several years for them to lay off. Their hounding me actually encouraged me to defend my stance, and to even find one. I hadn’t actually decided to leave yet, you see. I just wanted time to figure it all out. I was only in my early twenties. I might have even come back if they’d backed off. They didn’t.
So I finally did do the research. I rejected it much of it at first, but came back to it again until I really looked at it and realized that the Society’s facts were usually wrong. Then, while researching books like the Creation Book line by line and even contacting some of the people quoted in the book via email to check their statements, I discovered articles on philosophy and atheism. By this point, years had passed, and I had already begun to see myself as an agnostic. I soon realized that the correct term was atheist.
You could say that science and history play a part in my atheism, but much of it has to do with simple logic and critical reasoning. In other words, I’m not an atheist because of evolution per se. It’s more about the flaws (they’re flaws IMO at least) that I’ve uncovered in religious thinking. I tend to see secular atheism as the stronger, more likely position. Sure, maybe I’m wrong. But I don’t think I’m wrong, obviously.
Let me know if that makes sense or not. :)
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tony says:
January 8, 2011 at 4:00 PM
I read your about page as you suggested in my quest to find why you no longer believe in God. My belief is that you got into the faith for other reasons other than THe reason… The ring of truth. You only find truth when you question a lie. When you are ok with the lie the truth is not that attractive..read on.
My mum started taking us to meetings in the early nineties right after she found the faith herself. I was not yet in my teens and therefore basically attended so as not to anger mum. Later when i hit my teens mum started talking about a bible study and before i knew it a brother was assigned the task of bringing me into spiritual maturity. I studied the book “knowledge that leads to everlasting life” with him for a month or so.
To be honest even then the truth never sank in, basically because i had not yet started wondering what the point of life was. I thought that happiness was all about money and cars and women and not about what the brother was telling me.
After we were done with the book he asked me to think about the next step( baptism) and to get back to him. I never did. After the last study, i stopped going to meetings and went back to the world. 10 years worth of exposure to the world confirmed what i had been taught by the brother. Only in the last couple of years did i really start to seriously study the faith of Jehovah’s witnesses and i do believe they have the truth. I read an article on one recent awake about a girl who went through what i did and has as we speak returned to the fold. This gave me strength that i was not a lost cause.
It did not surprise me that your former brothers and sisters came after you after you left the truth, even ones that didnt speak to you before. The fact that they did meant they were concerned.
You left because of the governing body’s rules and not of any perceive inconsistencies in the bible. When you understand the words of God through the good book you end up understanding the rules…as they are themselves bible-based. AG, i dont think you were ever in the truth. You are where i was.
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The Atheist Geek says:
January 8, 2011 at 6:03 PM
If I had realized you were investigating my reasons so you could post your assessment of my views, I probably would have responded differently. For the record, I don’t see any similarities in our situations. Tony, no offense, but I think you’re writing events and motives from your own life onto mine.
As it is, I don’t think you have nearly enough information about me to reach a reasonable judgment about any of this. I also think you might be conflating my reasons for dropping out of meeting attendance with my reasons for atheism, which are in fact quite different.
I started attending meetings for a lot of reasons. One was that they were willing to study with me. I was a kid and didn’t know other more conventional groups would do the same. I was curious, and the indoctrination process worked its magic on me. I very much interested in their teachings and certainly absorbed them and understood them. Believe it or not, I became a believer through and through. But only for a time.
I stopped going to meetings initially because I didn’t like the organization itself and I was becoming depressed, though I still believed what they had taught me about the Bible generally. I had begun to seriously doubt that they were the true religious org and needed time to think about it more on my own. Years passed before I really saw myself as an ex-Witness and I thought I might return for the first 4 years of so after I quit attending meetings. For some, the truth and the org are one and the same. As is loyalty to god. This was not how I saw it. We may disagree here, but that doesn’t mean I wasn’t REALLY “in the truth” at any point. If it does, then you clearly have a radically different idea about that than my I once had. That doesn’t make either of us wrong, of course.
Atheism came about a decade later, though very gradually. My reasons included doubts about the Bible, but that merely reaffirmed my opinion at that point. The Bible is hardly the only self-proclaimed source of “Truth” out there. To me, doubt in the Bible isn’t good enough to doubt all gods in general unless you’re idea about what a real god means is already pretty narrow. That is, unless you assume the god of the Bible is the only way to go and have already discounted all the other options. I was willing to consider all angles at this point–including, finally, atheism: no gods. I found the arguments of atheists very hard to refute, while those of apologists were consistently very weak IMO. That’s when I went from “maybe an agnostic” to “definitely an atheist.” Science, philosophy, and all that kinda stuff went into that change of view over a long period of time.
As to people harassing me because I needed time away from the KH, I don’t consider that proof of love or concern. Many evangelists have a personal need to prove themselves, and I was an opportunity. A target, even. Not to say that they had no concern for me, but I don’t think it was the only one. Certainly not when you consider the extremes they went to. These behaviors can also be very self serving. You will have to read my other articles about evangelism if you want to understand me on this one. I can’t repeat them all here. Bear in mind that many of these articles were written for ex-Witness who are being harassed as I was. Note also that there’s a fine line between love and obsessive behavior that is ultimately self defeating. We may never agree on where that line is.
Tony, you might be someone who has a lot of opinions about atheists without a lot of understanding of why people become atheists. I don’t know if you fit that mold–I don’t actually know you, only what you posted–but I will offer you a friendly suggestion: don’t make too many assumptions about others you are trying to understand. It’s OK to have suspicions based on minimal information, but always know that you’re probably at least half wrong. (That goes for everybody.)
Sometimes, it’s easier to pigeonhole atheists as being confused, misguided, bitter, or having easily psychologized motives for seeing things differently than yourself. Like JWs and other believers, we are not a stereotype. We are whole human beings. People and their motives are complex. I think you are at risk of jumping to conclusions which happen to support your preexisting views too quickly and conveniently. I could, of course, be wrong. If I am, I’m willing to have my mind changed. As I said, people and their motives are complex–neither of us has nearly enough info about the other to make a fair assessment of the other. What ya gonna do?
No offense, believe it or not. But I think your post demanded a response from me. So I felt compelled to give it. Long though it was… :) Hope I didn’t come off as mean. If I did, it wasn’t intentional. Just being honest.
Thanks for posting.
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blase 1743 says:
January 9, 2011 at 9:53 PM
“…but I will offer you a friendly suggestion: don’t make too many assumptions about others you are trying to understand. It’s OK to have suspicions based on minimal information, but always know that you’re probably at least half wrong. (That goes for everybody.)”
And then you said this before that;
“As to people harassing me because I needed time away from the KH, I don’t consider that proof of love or concern. Many evangelists have a personal need to prove themselves, and I was an opportunity. A target, even. Not to say that they had no concern for me, but I don’t think it was the only one. Certainly not when you consider the extremes they went to. These behaviors can also be very self serving.”
I think that’s a tad hypocritical. Sure you were a JW so you’re aware of a number of the teachings etc but that doesn’t mean you have the ability to read the actual intentions of people. I don’t know you but i can obviously deduce you never got to that place of viewing what they did as loving so it’s understandable why you view them this way but you said yourself “atleast half wrong”.
“I very much interested in their teachings and certainly absorbed them and understood them. Believe it or not, I became a believer through and through.” – I fail to see how and why such a person could fall away especially how they could refuse the help of the those in congregation which is advised in situations like yours. Have you ever wondered what would have happened if you’d just humoured them? (I’m curious). I don’t mean to be rude or insensitive as to what you’ve been through but apart of you must have known where you would end up going through a depression without the brothers/sisters.
this is why i agree with tony to an extend when he said “You left because of the governing body’s rules and not of any perceive inconsistencies in the bible. When you understand the words of God through the good book you end up understanding the rules…as they are themselves bible-based. AG, i dont think you were ever in the truth. You are where i was.”
I don’t think its conflation because the governing body constantly urges JWs to check themselves that they are fine spiritually so that if they aren’t they can do something about before its too late. Recently they said, “ask yourself what convinces ME that God exists”. They don’t ask that you follow blindly as a scientist myself i find it hard to just take people’s word. If you truly absorbed what you were taught and believed it, you would have known the effects of disassociation and purposely missing meeting; consciously or subconsciously it sounds like you were looking for a way out.
the reason i commented though wasn’t to amateur psychoanalyse or sound mean or anything was just to point out that your point about “the witnesses who came after you” is negated by your other point about making rash assumptions about people you don’t know. Granted you might have known some of these people as friends but you couldn’t judge where they were spiritually enough to know they had other motives for trying to convince you not to take the path you’ve chosen. i’m not trying to imply they are perfect and you’re not i’m just saying sometimes the things you say like the ones quoted go can go both ways. think about that. i could be half wrong, let me know :)
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The Atheist Geek says:
January 10, 2011 at 8:43 PM
To blase and Tony,
If you’re goal is to reconvert anyone with these comments or to somehow lash out at critics like myself (and I’m pretty mild compared to most of them) you should know that this isn’t going to change our minds either. You kinda sound as consistently absolute and “just plain right” as many JWs and fundamentalists I have encountered, too. I won’t bother arguing with you about which of us is the most consistent with applicable stereotype. I’m just sayin’.
I don’t think you’ve really given us a topic to discuss, only challenged me about my own life and experiences because you don’t believe parts of them or my interpretations of them. What else can I say about that, except that I don’t care to run in circles with you about it? I’m just going to say what I have to say and then I’ll let it be.
My motives here are to offer useful advice and commentaries to fellow atheists/ex-Witnesses who would like to hear something that isn’t quite so extreme as JW hate sites. I’m even willing to have dialogues with believers, but I can’t get very far when you don’t believe anything I tell you about the subjective details regarding my own experiences. Seriously–who would want to have a dialogue with either of you after 5 mins of that, guys?
Regarding my being hypocritical …
There were Witnesses I was distantly acquainted with who kept coming after me at home, at work, even in public places. Some who were strangers, and SOME I KNEW QUITE WELL. Some of them insulted me publicly, others left dozens of messages on my answering machine and some even sat outside my home and waited for me day after day. They made me late for work, were peaking through the windows of my car, etc. etc. It was relentless. Whatever else that may day, it isn’t love. It’s screwed up. This is the kind of harassment that some XJWs put up with for years, just as I did.
That’s all the details you’re going to get. This happened after I stopped going to meetings, not before. That was entirely another set of situations. BTW, the Society’s teachings really aren’t that complex. They are pretty simple to understand.
Anyway, having been a Witness for a number of years, I was certainly in a position to have an opinion about their motives. As I said, human motives are complex. It can be tempting to just pigeonhole groups of people with simple psychology so they can be easily written off. Nevertheless, I think some of the motives for evangelism–especially aggressive, put your foot in the door evangelism–are self serving. Sorry if that bugs anyone, but it is what it is. What else can I say about that?
Blase, I will tell you the same thing I told Tony–you simply don’t know enough about any of this to have a reasonable opinion. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable thing to say at this point. Ultimately, either you believe me about my own life or you don’t. Don’t expect me to keep batting these comments back and forth about it.
That’s all I got for ya. Maybe I need to add a forum for discussions like these…Sheesh.
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blase 1743 says:
January 9, 2011 at 10:04 PM
one last thing i forgot, in regards to the part about you absorbing it all and believing…why i think otherwise…what happened to looking for the good in everyone including those in the congregation, you chose to view their actions in a negative way and as they say, the rest is history. i’m not suprised that wound up being drawn to philosophy etc. i just don’t think you should discredit tony saying what he did. it does have some merit even though i don’t know you. Put simply you’re not the first and you won’t be the last but at the end of the day despite different situations, routes taken in the truth, actions etc, there is a pattern which is why the GB is able to advice JWs about it so we can try to avoid it. Even if guidelines aren’t followed and a person does eventually leave for whatever reason, the patterns are the same.
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blase 1743 says:
January 11, 2011 at 9:33 AM
No no, another forum is not necessary. This is the last thing i will say about this, i will not and was not trying to “reconvert” anyone. I’m not so egotistical as to think i have such power. Even if i could, i wouldn’t.
I wasn’t questioning the truth in your experiences i was simply looking at them from a different point of view people do that everyday with others. I also never said the teachings weren’t simple i said you perhaps didn’t understand them to the extent to which you could have but i won’t get into…
I do sincerely apologise for any offence taken, that was not my intention. I’m just the sort of person who likes to have my own opinion about my life but i don’t usually mind people giving me theirs although some will take a mile which i may have done in you’re case. I am aware of some JWs who can be like you’ve described and i’m aware that the society can sometimes deal with these with little haste but personally my first solution would be to classify every egg in the basket as bad because of some…for one thing i would have moved congregations first and if everyone turned out to be…then maybe i may considered disassociation. I actually met someone whose been in a similar situation and they’ve moved to our congregation.
But each person to their own…again i apologise for downplaying your experiences but i do still partially stand by the comment i said about being hypocritical. Half the things i’ve read in your websites against JWs etc are things you do yourself as a person but in a different way. you should remember they are human too and not perfect so yeah i do believe you to an extent that JWs can act in a manner you’ve described but i believe some were only trying to help out of love, it just got overshadowed by the bad that happened. in the same way youths in the organisation can be a bad influence, they aren’t perfect.
I won’t comment anymore, i think if we met in real life i’d be much nicer and more understanding, being behind a computer brings out the worst in people sometimes myself included. So with that said, i wish you all the best and it was nice discussing with you, when i wasn’t unintentionally insulting you that is. I just choose to believe and see the best in people especially the JWs because i know they only try to help in my experience. I have met an ex JW who was abused (violence that is) as a child and kicked out before 16, he’s left because of that but he still associates because he knows not all the same some really do try to practice what they preach. i could go on about these stories but i think you get my point. and again no, i’m not in the business of trying reconvert, it comes of that way but i’m not even good at converting, i just merely have an interest in science which is what brought me here in the first place as well as a strong belief in God. that’s all now.
ciao!!!
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Tony says:
January 11, 2011 at 5:23 PM
AG. Before we go any further let me just state that i am not here to convert anybody. Just as you didnt create this platform to convert anyone to your way of thinking. If it wasnt for your assault on the Awake article you we would never have net(sic)
However you should know that it takes more to being a Witness of Jehovah than just words and going out to knock on doors. Its about conviction and your readiness to even lose your life for it. And many did during the reign of Hitler when they refused to sign forms renouncing their faith. Many also died in the former Soviet Union on their refusal to conform to the state’s atheistic ideology.
When you are in the truth you have conviction that what you believe is the truth. you just dont believe it to be so but you know it.
I really wonder how you could have been there and left. But then again like you said, you havent provided enough info for us to go through.
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The Atheist Geek says:
January 12, 2011 at 6:11 PM
These posts have raised my awareness of one thing. I probably need to write an article about issues like these in general. That will give me the opportunity to respond better. I kept disliking what I had written to you both, but felt like you deserved a response. Finally, I had to post what I had and call it quits for the night.
Since this is more an XJW site, things will easily get tense when Witnesses post about something they don’t like–and they certainly will find things they don’t like. Truth is, we–as groups–don’t think very much alike.
As I pointed out in parts of my review, the AWAKE! isn’t intended for atheists, though I was reviewing it as an atheist. Likewise, this site isn’t aimed at JWs…they often disagree with what they read or even be annoyed by it. Just as XJWs get annoyed with JWs telling us what our problems really are, and so forth.
We are also fighting stereotypes here on top of the limits imposed by this form of communication. Ex-Witnesses often see current Witnesses as judgmental or superior. Many Witnesses seem to see exxers as whiny brats or people who are emotionally screwed up. Both problems make it tough to communicate well.
I found myself spending as much time working on my responses as I would have with an full article (that was partly where my “sheesh” at the end of that other post came from). My writing time is limited. That’s one of the reasons why this is site is more of a hobby–I just can’t post often enough to do anything more with it than that.
It probably would have been better to have conversations like these via email, really. The site’s email address is also on my about page. I don’t want to discourage anyone from posting unless they’re being trolls. But I won’t probably won’t carry on a conversation for very long if it won’t go anywhere.
I do thank you both for posting. I’ll have to work something I can refer Witnesses to in the future that can maybe get us closer to a middle ground when necessary. A series of posts like these won’t do.
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Kurt says:
March 24, 2011 at 7:29 AM
There are two kinds of evolution:
1) There’s the version that you read about in the bookstore.
2) Then there’s the version that PhD biologists, cancer researchers and genetic engineers use to do their jobs every day.
Version #1 is 2/3rds science fiction. Version #2 is immensely practical and does amazing things.
98% of people have never heard the *real* evolution story. Have you?
http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/blog/evolution-untold-story/
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Kurt says:
March 24, 2011 at 11:30 AM
Atheist throws in towel: 6-year lawsuit challenging Pledge of Allegiance in California
Since a 1943 case involving Jehovah’s Witnesses, schoolchildren have had the right for reasons of conscience not to participate in reciting the Pledge. The lawsuits in California and New Hampshire both challenge whether students who do not want to say the Pledge of Allegiance can stop other children who do from saying the Pledge in school.http://www.speroforum.com/a/50737/Atheist-throws-in-towel-6year-lawsuit-challenging-Pledge-of-Allegiance-in-California
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The Atheist Geek says:
March 24, 2011 at 6:31 PM
What are you getting at, Kurt?
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Ty says:
March 29, 2011 at 7:53 PM
Hahahahaha @Kurt
Really? That website calls Evolution science fiction?
Wow, fundies are chemically incapable of detecting irony.
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Rain says:
April 23, 2011 at 10:27 PM
I grew up as a Jehovah’s witness and became an atheist. I can’t see how anyone with any critical thinking skills would ever turn back to religion, let alone JW’s.
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Vincent Deporter says:
July 6, 2011 at 1:26 AM
Man… how BORING am I? I’m one of the many JWs that became Atheist… pfff… SOOO not exciting. On top of that, it nearly took me 50 years… Yaawwwwn….
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The Atheist Geek says:
July 6, 2011 at 5:12 PM
As you can see, Vincent, this article has raised quite a stir. It’s one of the few that draw comments from JWs, though I wish they’d read the other articles in the series before they post their complaints.
One of your posts was directed at me–regarding an atheist society. I would be interested in seeing a society/country that was truly founded on secular humanist principles, or even just by atheists in general, and see what grows there. The closest things we have to that in real life seem like promising examples. But I’d like to see the real deal and find out what happens.
Maybe a bunch of us need to start our own country? :-)
Anyway, thanks for commenting Vincent.
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Vincent Deporter says:
July 6, 2011 at 1:42 AM
I’m so surprised that there are still all these people who treat atheism as a ‘belief’ — when it’s clearly a lack of belief! I’m not ‘preaching’ atheism — I’m trying to reason the believers into showing me some logic and evidence to support their belief.
Like Sandra (#8) that says “From what I have learned in school science proves that a creator exists. I have faith in both”
I had to react…
To say there is ‘Proof’ that God exists is incredible! How can anyone claim to prove there is a God? Well — we already know the answer to that: “Life too complicated to come by chance, so it has to be God”. Wow… I’m totally convinced now. If it wasn’t Colonel Mustard the murderer, then it must be Professor Plum. We all know life has only 2 possibilities, so if it’s not one, it the other.
Lets move on from this logical fallacy…
Science doesn’t call for Faith! On the contrary — it calls for evidence, mathematical common sense, archeology, discovery and theories based on fact and observation. Not Faith… not even close!
There — I feel better.
Sigh…
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Vincent Deporter says:
July 6, 2011 at 1:48 AM
As for your answer on an atheist society dear friend and Atheist Geek, remember that no war — EVER — in human history has been fought in the NAME of atheism. That a few despots were atheist is one thing — but they NEVER fought in the NAME of atheism.
Even Hitler has abundantly used the roman catholic church as a tool for war (they even had on their belt “God with Us”).
Now, how many wars in the name of God or religion have we seen?
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Vincent Deporter says:
July 6, 2011 at 2:30 AM
To blase and Tony;
I have been brought up a JW, got baptized at 13 (1972), and I pioneered as much as I could, was always gung-ho on my personal study, and loved giving talks. I have always turn down the privileges of MS and consequently elder, because for the life of me, I could never judge another. Other than that, I was way up there.
My departure was in 3 phases.
1) My personal studying of the Bible started to provoke deep questions about Jehovah’s character. More and more – over the years- I was troubled by the inconsistencies of His words, and the cruelty of his Mosaic laws, for example. It took me over a decade to ask help from the elders — to dare question (and believe me, you don’t wanna know how deeply reasoned and logical those questions are) — they couldn’t answer. The CO couldn’t answer… no one even tried.
2) I started getting suspicious of fowl play when the elders told me they worried I was becoming an apostate. I thought that was a heavily convenient way to demonize research and honest questioning. Hence, I wanted to verify something that was on the back of my mind for a while: Evolution. I was shocked (and I shed some really painful tears) to realize the Organization that I trusted and served with my life, was QUOTE-MINING!!! I couldn’t believe it – not the faithful and discreet slave!!! Page after page, verifying the context of what quote they presented– pure lies and misleading art of teaching.
3) After doubting the validity of God and his word, I realized God’s organization was no better. Lies. So my next step was to open the doors of ex-witness research. I completely ignore those who just crap on the society, or who try to sell their trinity and other lies. I want to read good-faith people’s witness. I learned all about the link between the WTS and the UN for 10 years, the horrible truth about how pedophiles were protected (although they have worked to change that a bit), and most spiritually of all, the fact that they are false prophets, no better than Harold Camping himself (that uses the same “new Light” “wasn’t time for God” lame excuses than the WTS).
Deuteronomy 18:20-22, it says:
“‘However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?” when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.’ (NWT)
Here’s a rundown of the Society’s predictions, as the self-called mouthpiece of God:
(after the *** stars, my comments…)
• 1897 “Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874,” (Studies in the Scriptures, vol. 4, p. 621).
• 1899 “…the ‘battle of the great day of God Almighty’ (Revelation 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth’s present rulership, is already commenced,” (The Time Is at Hand, 1908 edition, p. 101).
***Remember this date was calculated from the pyramid’s measurements! Based on pagan belief.
• 1916 “The Bible chronology herein presented shows that the six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th Day, the 1000 years of Christ’s Reign, began in 1873,” (The Time Is at Hand, forward, p. ii).
• 1918 “Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection,” (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, p. 89).
***Hence, the building of a mansion called Beth Sarimhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beth_Sarim#Occupation
• 1922 “The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914,” (Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1922, p. 262).
• 1923 “Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge,” (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1923, p. 106).
• 1925 “The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year,” (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1925, p. 3).
• 1925 “It is to be expected that Satan will try to inject into the minds of the consecrated, the thought that 1925 should see an end to the work,” (Watchtower, Sept., 1925, p. 262).
• 1926 “Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything,” (Watchtower, p. 232).
***WOW! What a way to accuse the sheep of being the delusional ones!!! Dirty if you ask me!
• 1931 “There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah’s faithful ones on earth concerning the years 1917, 1918, and 1925, which disappointment lasted for a time…and they also learned to quit fixing dates,” (Vindication, p. 338).
***Not for long!
• 1941 “Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord’s provided instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon,” (Watchtower, Sept. 15, 1941, p. 288).
• 1968 “True, there have been those in times past who predicted an ‘end to the world’, even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The ‘end’ did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing?.. Missing from such people were God’s truths and evidence that he was using and guiding them,” (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968).
***Wow… the amazing the irony of this! Have they no shame?
• 1968 “Why are you looking forward to 1975?” (Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1968, p. 494).
About 1975, the Watchtower was at best, insistingly misleading. Unfortunately for the Organization, and their attempts to erase the old books and magazines that are an embarrassing witness to all these false prophecies, today the net is filled with the original tapes of talks about the dates mentioned above. The magazine articles are plethora too.
Thanks to YouTube, for example, the light is very clear!
~~~~~~~
There, you have it. The 3 steps of my life and honest quest for truth.
I still have a lot of love for my brothers — but they are brain-washed.
Time will tell that 1914 is a crock, and we are less than 3 years before it’s 100th birthday. All of it based on the pagan pyramids, then readjusted to “fit”… I think in time the brothers are gonna start seeing thru all this and be quite weary.
The best I can say is “do your homework”. Research openly — believe me, Satan will not bite! Who is stronger? Him? or the Truth? Of course, Jehovah has empowered him to be the God of this system… so you can’t count on the Father too much.
I am SOOOOO happy since I have ditched all these superstitions!
Whew!
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Vincent Deporter says:
July 12, 2011 at 8:16 PM
How reasonable a society this could be indeed… in countries like Denmark, or France (where I spent 23 years of my life), much can be said on how well some of it works… not perfectly, granted, but there is a sense of reason and responsibility it seems… to me at least.
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Roland says:
August 23, 2011 at 8:05 AM
I’ve read all of the comments in this section and some interest me. For example, it would be interesting to know what convinced the author of the article to not believe in a higher power. For example the author mentions him being a former Jehova’s witness, but what teachings with them wasn’t he accepting, and why? Also I’m not a Jehova’s witness, and neither am I trying to convert anybody. However I enjoy discussing about the Bible and about its teachings, and from personal experience I’ve found Jehova’s Witnesses to be the ones preaching closest to it.
Secondly I also enjoyed reading about the things Vincent Deporter posted in his comments, for example about former president of the Watchtower Joseph Franklin Rutherford living in Beth Sarim with his Cadillac. And I would like to read more about Watchtower protecting pedophiles, it’s not the first time I hear about it, they even aired a television documentary about it in my country.
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The Atheist Geek says:
August 23, 2011 at 4:57 PM
Roland,
This article, as well as others in the series (there are several which deal with this issue of the AWAKE!) generated some interesting comments. I wasn’t realistically able to answer all of them in the comments section as they really needed an entire article unto themselves. Some were complimentary, some weren’t so nice, others seemed to come from people running on a very different channel. As in, I don’t think some of them “got” what the articles were about. Of course, not everyone read all of them. They were part of a series and that would have helped.
You remind me of the need to put out some more articles about these subjects, though. I’ve been plugging away at another writing project (which actually deals with a lot of your questions) so I haven’t written as many articles at AGN recently. Let me briefly try to answer some of your questions anyway:
I left the Society because I wasn’t so sure it was the true religion any more. I was very unhappy as one of JWs, and as these doubts grew stronger, my reasons for staying with it naturally grew weaker. This wasn’t a doctrinal issue, it was an issue with the Society and its representatives. You are welcome to your own opinion about the org, which seems positive, but I felt the Society was too authoritarian, too black and white in its thinking, and behaved in disturbingly cult-like ways. This became more obvious the longer I was there. So I chose to withdraw from the Society for a time so I could think more clearly. I prayed about it, but knew I was not ready to be objective. So what I wanted most was time so I could reevaluate the Society’s claim as the one true religion properly.
Two weeks later, local Witnesses began to harass me for not showing up to meetings. This actually made it “worse,” not better. It got scary, in fact. It made me want to dig in and do the research. Which I did a different times over the years the followed (it took years for the congregation to finally leave me alone.) Eventually, I learned that the Society’s publications were badly researched, even misleading. That was enough for me to call it quits. I decided I wasn’t going back and I wasn’t going to bullied into going back.
As I said, the local Witnesses lost interest in re-converting me over the next couple years (I was very grateful this happened) but in-laws kept coming by even after the rest of the congregation finally left me alone. This encouraged me to do more research because–frankly–it irritated me that they wouldn’t take no for an answer. I found their attitude very insulting, even arrogant. (Not every JW in the world is like this, but at the time, it sure felt like it!) So I wanted to argue with them well enough for them to finally grasp that I wasn’t coming back. It was around this time, more than a decade after I’d left the KH, that I came across the writings of atheists. I found their arguments to be much stronger than those of any apologists, including the WTS’s. This lead me to identifying myself as an atheist. I remain that way to this day.
That’s about as much as I’m going to give you for now, Roland. But I appreciate your comments and thanks for reading. Eventually, I will post my little podio-book that goes into more details about these issues.
Regarding your other requests, I do post news links about WT pedophiles whenever I find them, but I haven’t written anything directly about it. This isn’t a WT hate site–it’s a pro-ex-Witness site. So I haven’t been hitting that one as hard as some have. If you do a search on the internet, you’ll find plenty there to read about this topic. You can also find other stories like the ones about Beth Sharim.
Take care.
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Bob says:
August 24, 2011 at 7:50 AM
It’s funny how you take so much time to read this, and you don’t believe in it. I’m not trying to offend anyone but you really do have your mind blocked as to all of this.
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The Atheist Geek says:
August 27, 2011 at 9:06 AM
Gee Bob. Thanks. And I was hoping maybe you were talking to someone else, but I guess this is aimed at me. I’m sure you feel better now that you got that off your chest, but did you have anything of substance to say, or is this it?
Seriously, I can’t do much more than roll my eyes at something like that.
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Vincent Deporter says:
March 8, 2012 at 1:24 PM
How ironic of Bob to mention a “blocked mind” on this subject. Funny really. When asking Christians “WHY” they believe in God’s Word, hence, in God, I always get roughly the same answers:
“It says so in the Bible” = poor circular reasoning.
“God know better than us imperfect humans” = silly reasoning.
The reason the latter is so ludicrous, is that Christians are presumptuous enough to trust in their OWN judgement that God exists, and that he is superior to us (as only stated in ‘His” word), but then bow their heads to that unsubstantiated godly assumption. All of this without a shred of evidence (even circumstantial)!
And we free-thinking seekers are “blocked” or dogmatic. (We all know science thrives on dogmatism and conservative beliefs. Duh…)
The Awake magazine has been mine-quoting, misleading, with outright bias, forever. It is right there, right in front of the JW’s faces — all they have to do is look up the quotes and read the contexts (something they encourage to do for other things).
Here’s a FACT: The Watchtower and Awake, are verifiably, intellectually dishonest. Period.
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The Atheist Geek says:
March 8, 2012 at 6:23 PM
I TOTALLY agree that the magazines are intellectually dishonest. And yeah, I don’t think Bob quite gets it either. He’s not alone.
An atheist could just as easily accuse a believer of having a “blocked” mind about gods or the supernatural. In fact, I’m sure there are Muslims who think Christians are “blocked” against belief in Islam, or Wiccans, or JWs who feel much the same way. If I was willing to take the cheap, lazy way out of having a real discussion about it, I would accuse them all of that very thing when it comes to atheism.
But I think it’s a cop out. Which is why I gave the reaction I did.
To have a useful, meaningful discussion on stuff like this with someone who has a very different viewpoint, a person has to be capable of realizing that not everyone thinks as they do. I don’t value that same kinds of reasoning or evidence that Bob does. I’m sure that all the reasons I have for not believing in gods wouldn’t impress Bob one bit.
But his reasons for believing wouldn’t impress me, either. That’s the thing I would like Bob, and others, to understand.
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13 Responses to From The AWAKE! Magazine: A WORLD WITHOUT RELIGION-AN IMPROVEMENT?
Ty says:
September 14, 2010 at 3:48 AM
These blog entries are doing a wonderful job of making me happy I no longer have to read this badly written dreck.
Quote mining? Check.
Logical fallacies? Check.
Threats? Check.
Standard fare for a WTS publication.
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The Atheist Geek says:
September 14, 2010 at 4:28 PM
I aim to please, Ty. :-)
Still one more to go!
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Selena says:
September 16, 2010 at 1:33 AM
To think I starved myself intellectually on this for 12 years. Well done! I love how you don’t bash…you question and educate. Thank you for what you do.
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The Atheist Geek says:
September 16, 2010 at 7:57 AM
I know what you mean. I’ve been wanting to write an article on how the Society constructs it’s articles (they’re actually pretty formulaic) but that’s hard to do without a specific example. Then this series came along, and it was perfect. It was already about atheists, and that’s me.
Thanks for your comments.
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Audia says:
January 21, 2011 at 4:38 PM
I want a fre copy of the book “the greatest man who ever lived but i don’t have the address to send it to and i want it in english
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The Atheist Geek says:
February 19, 2011 at 9:09 AM
As an ex-Witness with a web site, I have no way to help you.
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Audia says:
January 21, 2011 at 4:40 PM
I want a copy of the book called THE GREATEST MAN WHO EVER LIVED in english but i don’t have the address to send it to
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Ty says:
February 21, 2011 at 8:44 AM
I want a pony and a plastic rocket.
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The Atheist Geek says:
February 21, 2011 at 7:26 PM
Yeah, most of my wants involve money and porn. ;^D Any takers?
[crickets chirping]
Well, you know where I’ll be.
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The Sleepy Herm says:
April 18, 2011 at 3:50 PM
I want to be happy :)
@Audia, if the Atheist Geek would be so kind as to let me post a link to a file sharing site, you can download the book in PDF format from this URL: http://www.sendspace.com/file/pskhat
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Lebo says:
August 11, 2013 at 4:17 PM
There will also be false teachers among you.—2 Pet. 2:1.
Jehovah through the apostles Paul and Peter warns us about false teachers. (Acts 20:29, 30; 2 Pet. 2:1-3) Who are such teachers and from where do they come? To elders of the Ephesus congregation, Paul said: “From among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things.” So they may arise from within the congregation. Such ones are apostates. What do they want? They are not content just to leave the organization that they perhaps once loved. Their aim, Paul explained, is “to draw away the disciples after themselves.” Note the definite article in the expression “the disciples.” Rather than going out and making their own disciples, apostates seek to take Christ’s disciples with them. Like “ravenous wolves,” false teachers are out to devour trusting members of the congregation, destroying their faith and leading them away from the truth.—Matt. 7:15; 2 Tim. 2:18
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The Atheist Geek says:
August 13, 2013 at 6:18 AM
From Marks of a Cult–
From the theological viewpoint, any group or religious system, whether it calls itself “Christian” or not, that offers other criteria as equal to or superior to the Bible, including but not limited to erroneous and/or exclusive interpretations of Scripture, should be considered a cult. From the theological position, then, a cult can be best defined as:
A system of religious beliefs and rituals with a body of adherents deeply devoted to an extrabiblical person, idea, or thing; it cultivates worship in a religion that, with reference to its basis for man’s salvation, is considered to be unorthodox, spurious, or false, thereby insulating its members against true salvation in Christ. And inasmuch as the central doctrine of Biblical Christianity is the sacrificial death of Christ for man’s sin (Eph. 2:8,9), all cultic deviations tend to downplay the finished work of Christ and emphasize the importance of earning moral acceptance before God through one’s own religious works.
From the theological viewpoint, all the groups/religious systems included in the Cult section of the Notebook are obviously cults. [Note that Jehovah's Witnesses make the list, as they do with so many other organizations and cult-experts.] They are all centered in religious beliefs or practices calling for devotion to a religious view centered in false doctrine — it is nothing less than organized heresy.
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The Atheist Geek says:
August 13, 2013 at 6:33 AM
To be classified as a cult, not all of the following characteristics have to be present, but in most cases, in one form or another, all of them will be:
1. Extrabiblical Authority: All cults [effectively] deny what God says in His Word as true. Cults have shifted their theological point of authority away from God’s full and final written Word, the Bible, to their own unique, self-promoting opinions about the Bible; they generally will use parts of the Bible but will have their own unique scripture which is considered to be superior to the Bible. While some cult groups give token respect for the Bible and go through the motions of accepting the authority of Scripture, in reality, they honor the group’s or leader’s novel interpretation of Scripture as normative.
2. Works Salvation/Legalism: Cults teach that eternal life depends upon something other than the Atonement; i.e., faith in the atoning, finished work of Christ on the cross is deemed not to be sufficient (usually replaced with human works and human responsibility). Rather than relying on the grace of God alone for salvation, the salvation message of the cults always boils down to required obedience to, or abstention from, certain obligations and practices (some even including obedience to the Old Testament law).[Refusal of blood transfusions, for instance.]
3. No Assurance of Salvation: The issue of a cult member’s salvation is never settled, but is constantly affected by the changing circumstances of life; in this way, cult leaders are able to produce continued obligation and spiritual bondage, rather than spiritual freedom. [Because Armageddon could be here any second.]
4. Guru-Type Leader/Modern Prophet: The cult leader [such as the Governing Body of the Watchtower Society] is looked to as the infallible interpreter of Scripture, specially appointed by God to be a special saint, guru, or contemporary messiah, and thereby, has divine authority that must not be violated. Cultists almost always quote their leader rather than the Bible. The cult’s adherents often expound the virtues of the founders [the Governing Body] and seek to cover the founder’s sins and wickedness. [Such as how JWs protect pedophiles. Look it up. More and more people are coming forward.]
5. Vacillating, Ambiguous Doctrines/Spiritual Deception: In order to gain favor with the public, and thereby aid in the recruitment of new members, cult “doctrine” tends to be characterized by many false or deceptive claims concerning the cult’s true spiritual beliefs (e.g., Mormons are not quick to reveal their belief that God was a man, who has now become the God of planet Earth). [And JWs deny shunning of relatives to the public.]
6. Exclusivity from/Denunciation of Other Groups: Each cult group, regardless of what other doctrines are taught, will all have this one common idea — “The Only True Church Syndrome.” [Because only JWs have "the truth."] The members of each specific organization have been taught that their church, organization, or community, is the only true group and that all other groups are false. [Sound familiar?] The group’s leaders will explain that it is impossible to serve God without being a member of the specific group. Moreover, when the cult leader announces himself as the true “Messiah,” all others are declared to be dishonest, deceitful, and deluded, and must be put down; [There are no reasonably dissenting POV, just apostates and opposers serving Satan!] alternative views are denounced as being satanic and corrupt. [Apostates and opposers again!] Persecution is welcomed, and even glorified in, as “evidence” that they are being persecuted for righteousness sake. Thus, if a member decides to leave the group, they have been told that they are not simply leaving an organization, but rather they are leaving God and His only true organization. Hence, for a member of a cult who has been in a group for any length of time, the action of leaving the group is much more difficult than what most Christians understand. To leave the group is, in the minds of the cult member, tantamount to leaving God. [Sound familiar? All of it should be.]
7. Claims of Special Discoveries/Additional Revelation: Acceptance of new, contemporary, continual revelations that either deny the Bible or are allowed to explain it. The fundamental characteristic of Christianity is that it is historical, not dependent upon private knowledge and secret, unconfirmable relationships, while the almost universal basis of cult religion is the claimed exclusive revelation that one person has supposedly received. [Because only the Governing Body/The Faithful and Discrete slave offer you access to Jehovah's teachings as the one true channel.] Rather than conforming to Biblical rules of evidence (2 Cor. 13:1), cult leader revelations almost always emanate from hallucinations, visions, dreams, private discoveries, etc. These new revelations often become codified as official written “scripture” of the cults (e.g., The Book of Mormon), [or the Watchtower and AWAKE! magazines and countless other texts from the Society's printing presses.] and are considered as valid as that of the apostles (and even more relevant because they are given in these end times).
8. Defective Christology: Cults always have a false view of the nature of the Person of Jesus Christ; a cult will usually deny the true deity of Christ, His true humanity, His true origin, or the true union of the two natures in one Person.
9. Defective “Nature of Man”: Most cults do not see man as an immortal being; instead they see him either as an animal without a soul or as a being which is being perfected to the point of becoming a god. [JWs are big on imperfection and how the new system, which never comes, will perfect all those who remain loyal to the organization.] They usually do not see man as a spirit clothed in a body of flesh awaiting the redemption of body and soul.
10. Out-Of-Context Scripture Use as Proof-Texts/Segmented Biblical Attention: Cults tend to focus on one verse or passage of the Bible to the exclusion of others, and without regard for the context in which Scripture is given (e.g., 1 Cor. 15:29 used by Mormons to justify baptism for the dead). In addition, cults have made an art form out of using Christian terminology, all the while pouring out their own meanings into the words. [Because dictionaries have different definitions of words like "truth" and "lie" than your literature does.]
…
12. Entangling Organization Structure: The less truth a movement represents, the more highly it seems to have to organize itself; the absence of truth seems to make necessary the application of the bonds of fear. Cults often demand total commitment by their converts to an organizational involvement that entangles them in a complicated set of human restrictions, giving the impression of passionate and often irrational devotion to a cause. [Like absolute obedience to local elders because disobedience = disrespect for Jehovah God's arrangements. There are other examples that any ex-Witness could give.]
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3 Responses to News And Links For Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses: Jehovahs Witnesses make money calling for end of the world
Mike Doiron says:
November 12, 2010 at 4:35 PM
I just wanted to thank you for this website. I was raised a JW for 15 years and it really leaves an impression on you(not in a good way) I talk to kids that I went to the kingdom hall with now on facebook and such and now we have a fun time making fun of alot of stuff. Anyways keep up the good work.
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The Atheist Geek says:
November 12, 2010 at 5:29 PM
Thanks Mike. Hate mail is always fun, but praise isn’t bad either. :-)
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Mike Doiron says:
November 12, 2010 at 6:17 PM
Yeah i hear you I get alot of hate mail on my website and i feel like i’m better prepared for hate mail…plus it is more entertaining.
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3 Responses to (Warning: Cruel And Inane Humor To Follow) The 5 Kinds Of Elder Who Drove You Out Of The Kingdom Hall
Anthony Zarola says:
March 18, 2011 at 11:29 AM
Yes, I like this post! I think you forgot 1 elder type….the “Leave it in Jehovah’s hands elder”. The one who is able to force you to forgive that slimey bastard of a brother who ripped you off, then reminded you you can’t take your brother to court….this elder also makes you know, that “we are all imperfect” so, by letting Jehovah take care of matters, you will be doing God, and the congregation a favor, a big one….especially since this elder is always the one who has 3/4ths of the congregation who are related to him by blood or marriage. The only downside to this elder, is when it is YOU who does something wrong…then the juducial commitee will decide you future life, and happiness. Just be sure, when you move, and go to a new congregation, you find someone there who you clique with, or life as you know it, will soon be even more unbearable.
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The Atheist Geek says:
March 18, 2011 at 4:34 PM
Good point, though I never thought of this as an elder type. To me, it’s more like some Witnesses are this way, including some that are elders. But it probably deserves a spot here too.
There was a flood where my wife and I used to live. We had to leave our home and part of it was damaged. We couldn’t afford to get it repaired, either, because I was out of work at the time. My wife’s JW aunt took us in for nearly a week, then berated me every single hour on the hour about leaving the KH for the first 3 days.
As a refugee she had taken pity on, I didn’t want to argue or be rude. As a guest, I really didn’t need this on top of all my other problems.
Best part: she angrily insisted that Jehovah had blessed me because it could have been worse. Then she kept brining it up, stubbornly insisting that I had been blessed and should be grateful that part of my home was intact. I ended up staying upstairs the rest of the time we were there because it got too far out of hand. I don’t really speak to her anymore unless truly necessary.
Score another one back for Jehovah? No. Quite the opposite, in fact.
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Anthony Zarola says:
March 18, 2011 at 7:44 PM
It really seems that an attitude of “kindly reasonableness” (when faced with crises), is a pathway few witnesses take. Blame, and devaluation of the one partcially, or as in your case, not at all responsible for the situation you were in.
Most JW’s just “have to be right” about everything, and everyone….they are never wrong, and if there is any possibility they might be, they find a way to shift the blame on someone, or something else.
I have never heard an elder humble himself, and ask the next guy to figure the problem out…They all know it all, so why pass the question?
I was wrong to believe their doctrines, I was too weak to even consider researching things when I saw situations in the hall that disturbed me….I was just like all of them, a coward.
I have strength now, but the years are spent, the water has passed under…I have two great things to be truly happy about now though, I can sound a warning and I can escape their cries of false endings….YOU are very fortunate to be out also…THAT is the real blessing.
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3 Responses to News And Links For Atheists AND Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses:
Gabrielle Guichard says:
January 14, 2011 at 6:15 PM
“If there is a god, and he or she decides to break silence and demonstrate his or her existence, I would be happy to believe and even worship, if that is what the deity requires.”
I have never been able to understand the link between the existence of a god and the worship. For which deeds would they deserve to be adored? Many people exist, but I don’t worship them.
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The Atheist Geek says:
January 16, 2011 at 10:51 AM
I tend to agree, actually. If god-like aliens surrounded the planet, they could force human worship. But that would make them serious dicks, wouldn’t it?
I’m not sure how or why a true god should be seen any differently. What are you quoting from, BTW?
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Ty says:
January 20, 2011 at 2:24 PM
Indeed. God always comes across as an insecure abusive husband.
“Why do you force me to hurt you when I love you so much?”
No thanks. I have no interest in worshiping anyone, much less someone who tries to get my adoration through threats of violence.
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One Response to News And Links For Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses: A Witness Named Corey Nash Was Killed…
Ty says:
May 3, 2011 at 4:39 PM
Glad that nutjob with the rifle got arrested. No matter how annoying proselytizers are, we can’t just blast away at them.
I got threatened with a rake once by an angry homeowner, but no guns. And I actually taunted rake-guy, telling him I’d take his rake away if he tried to use it. I was never very ‘sheeplike’ I fear.
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3 Responses to A Response To “The Argument That Jehovah’s Witnesses Are Not Cult Members”
The Sleepy Herm says:
April 25, 2011 at 4:30 PM
Yeah, apologists are just unreal. “We’re not a cult because I’m a member and I say it’s not a cult.”
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The Atheist Geek says:
April 26, 2011 at 4:52 PM
Yeah, I mean, it would be great if he really had something to talk about. I’d like to see something like this presented as a REAL case. The fact that he doesn’t do this makes us suspect he doesn’t have such a case.
I’d love to see a better argument made somewhere. Personally, for me, it depends on how high you set the bar before a religion can be considered a cult.
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The Sleepy Herm says:
April 27, 2011 at 3:32 PM
Agreed. It really depends on the definition of “cult.” I pointed this out in the comment I left him. And, you know, the whole point of a cult is that a member trying to defend against the idea that it is a cult, will NOT realize it is a cult anyway. And this guy provides no citations from the Bible OR, get this, the magazines! Just word of mouth…doesn’t prove anything.
Anyway, this is the comment I left:
What is your personal definition of a cult, Mr. Simon? I think it depends on how one defines what a cult is. If you gave a clear definition at the start of your paper, that may have helped, but according to definitions provided by psychology professionals, this religion does fit the criteria. Even if it didn’t fit ALL the criteria, this relgion still shares some traits in common with what psychologists consider a cult. For example: You’re nor allowed to freely change religion after you become a baptized witness. To do so is considered leaving the truth and is thus considered apostasy. To speak out against the organization is equated with criticizing god himself and is another example of what is thought of as heinous apostasy. And, while the term “mind control” might not be appropriate word choice for having an objective discussion on the matter, the literature often admits to it. For example, some common expressions in the religion are: “Do not lean upon your own understanding,” “we cannot understand the Bible properly without Holy Spirit as provided by the Organization,” “Sometimes we may need to humble ourselves and align our priorities and thinking with God’s organization,” “Someone with doubts needs to be counselled and encouraged to make it back to the meetings,” “we must not follow unrealities or fall victim to worldly or apostate thinking.”
Oh, and I just couldn’t help but leave a comment on another apologist’s site who loves to bash evolution:
My question: Tom, if I may ask a question, your definition of micro-evolution is change that is restricted within one “kind.” Would you define kind as species? Because if kind is vague, couldn’t I refer to finches as a kind, considering all finches are finches after all? Because, while “finch” is one word, and we can call it one “kind,” finches are also a suborder.
His response: Sleepy: sorry, I don’t know. Is kind only finches, or is it finches, robins and turkeys? Dunno. But it’s not crocodiles. Or panthers. Or worms.
Hahahahaha! :D So, finches can evolve into other finches, just as long as they don’t turn into something not called finches. And worms are a whole G*ddamn Phylum!!! Conclusion: Primates can turn into other primates as long as they stay primates, animals can turn into other animals as long as they stay animals, organisms to organisms as long as they stay organisims!
Sorry, I was excited. I’m pretty hot-headed when it comes to debating people on evolution, science, and atheism. I just shoot people down. Ha.
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One Response to WTF?! I’m Still Here!
The Sleepy Herm says:
May 23, 2011 at 4:30 PM
It is painfully ironic how Witnesses think Camping’s a loon for trying to predict the end of the world. Seriously. “Like, holy crap, someone thinks the world’s gonna end soon. False religion alert! Oh, wait…we believe that too…still, how dare he predict it!”
One Response to Doomsday, May 21st–So Long Suckers!
The Sleepy Herm says:
May 23, 2011 at 6:19 PM
Seriously, Harold, everyone knows the world will end in 2012. The Mayans said so. And they were never wrong about anything. That’s why they defeated the conquistadors and rule all the Americas to this day, right? Beat that logic smarty pants. Thought so.
Merry Christmas.
I’ve seriously used that same argument to discredit 2012. I mean, what the hell do primitive people know about the world ending? They worshiped rocks and invisible guys while killing one another over not worshipping the correct rocks or invisible guys. Oh yeah, and they totally got slaughtered by other people and their culture is dead to the world in matters relating to medicine, “science,” and everything else. Why would I consult them on stuff like this?
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13 Responses to Is That An Attack On The Watchtower Society Or Are You Just Criticizing My Religion?
The Sleepy Herm says:
May 9, 2011 at 4:18 PM
People need to develop a sense of humour and learn to chill out…anger is a drain on time and energy that could be put to better use. I, personally, think your site is pretty positive. Most of your articles focus on helping exxers, and you never really bash witnesses or the tower. You just point out logical flaws where they are to be found. :)
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The Atheist Geek says:
May 9, 2011 at 4:56 PM
Thanks for the feedback man. That’s what I try for at least.
I’ll have a few more posts like this come out at some point just to handle reasonable complaints from Witnesses or others. The nasty ones are easy to brush off, but some do deserve a real answer. I just don’t have time to keep giving it to them. Now, I can point them to this post. :-)
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The Sleepy Herm says:
May 19, 2011 at 6:52 PM
Um…I just noticed something. I read your about page and I just re-did mine for my site, and…well, I just realized I worded some things a lot like yours and…so, should I change some stuff around so it doesn’t look like I totally copied from you? I mean, yeah…How embarrassing.
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The Atheist Geek says:
May 22, 2011 at 1:30 PM
I’m not especially worried about it. I’ll probably update my about page at some point anyway. :)
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The Sleepy Herm says:
May 23, 2011 at 4:16 PM
Okay, cool. Thanks. I thought some of that stuff seemed familiar as I was typing it. Aw, well, anyway, I thought you’d like the boob joke. Those are good jokes by default, :)
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G.O.I. says:
May 25, 2011 at 8:44 PM
I have to admit it still amuses me when witnesses post on forums that are openly against the Organization’s teachings. I know it happens often, but, no matter their reasoning, they are still going against the Society’s teachings when engaging in a conversation with an “apostate.” I don’t mean to be down on people who are honestly searching for information (especially if their goal is to leave the Watchtower Organization), but really why are they even on websites like this, if there is a potential danger to their faith, as the Organization claims?
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The Atheist Geek says:
May 26, 2011 at 9:55 AM
GOI, some of them are actually very amusing. The ones who curse and rage at me are probably teenagers having a knee jerk reaction. If I had a true forum, per se, others could pounce on their comments. But with JWD and JWR, I guess I didn’t think that many people would bother with my forum over those. So it’s up to me to respond or to imply they are right with my silence. Well, that’s no fun.
The better comments, or even the calm but sincere ones, deserve some kind of response. I often find that such a response takes as long as any article to write! It would be better if I had something ready in advance that I could point them to. After all, many of them have the same complaints.
Thus, you get occasional posts like this. I will try to pepper a few more into the mix over time.
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Dirty Epic says:
July 13, 2011 at 2:45 AM
I do not think it is isolated to one religion. While the Witness folk have a slanted view of life, gearing their articles and opinions toward their organizational view point and beliefs, I have actually found they actually check their facts more thoroughly than other main stream christian organizations.
On the flip side, they do have a select audience they pander to with their articles, and do not cite themselves to be a premier new organization.
While I disagree with their points, I am ashamed of them, as human beings for taking the stance to attack people who may disagree with their views or articles.
This not only contradicts their message of tolerance and acceptance, but it also defeats the purpose of their organizational goals and beliefs.
It would be far different if your article had been some sort of blasphemous armada of slander littered with grammatical vomit, offensive language and gross lies, but it was not.
My biggest issue with people who respond to something that offends them is their inability to take a deep breath, analyze what they are planning to refute, and actually do so as the intelligent, thoughtful person they are trying to be.
It always falls to accusation, insults and inaccurate representation of what happened or facts.
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The Atheist Geek says:
July 13, 2011 at 5:05 PM
I agree, all religions have people who react to general criticism with strong emotions. Actually, I would expand that to all groups of people. Every club has its heroes and its jerks, and there are plenty of positions to occupy in between.
Epic, I don’t know about your current religious beliefs, but for me as an atheist, I’ve come to appreciate the dilemma presented to famous atheists like Dawkins and Hitchens. You can only use so much mollifying language before an article becomes unreadable. I’ve been working on some other projects along those lines, and I see the problem. But what’s a critic to do?
You just have to pick your line in the sane and hope the right people listen to what you have to say.
Thanks for the comment.
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Dirty Epic says:
July 15, 2011 at 7:47 AM
Most groups are like that, but they do not bring it to the media, harass people in their homes, cast the first stone, etc.. It’s usually gossip that is later forgotten for new gossip. It is how criticism is delivered. I have learned through vast, militant training in management to list off really good things, at least two, in a positive light, and then follow it with a fluffed version of the criticism.
I don’t really believe in anything. I joke about worshiping my awesome toaster that was manufactured the day Kennedy was shot.
I used to believe in people, but even they are drifting from kindness to nihilism. I assure you I am not a whack-a-doo, but with age comes experience. With experience comes growing loathing for certain situations that seem to circle out into the world. I am not ready to blame the poor for being poor, seniors for growing old, and children for their inability to defend themselves. I am also not willing to believe the entire constitution is gold except for the religious freedoms.
It is a crazy world when we put more efforts into declaring a nationalize religion than we do taking care of our children, ourselves and each other.
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The Atheist Geek says:
July 15, 2011 at 5:52 PM
Great comments. I think I pretty much agree with everything you said–even the part about how to deliver criticism–with a caveat I’d like to add regarding the idea that people “are drifting from kindness to nihilism.”
I have observed that most people tend to think that things were better “back in the day.” Especially when they were young. Then they get older and they tend to think that everyone is disrespectful, out for themselves, and the world is going to crap.
Yes, these trends do happen, but I suggest that this is an internal change of perception more than an outwardly one.
I’m sure you realize that the elderly complained about the young thousands of years ago. The elderly did so back when movies were black and white, too. You know, back when my grandparents were my age.
In other words, our grandparents grandparents complained about them (or their generation) too. If things truly are going continuously downhill, for thousands of years, we would have destroyed ourselves long ago.
The older we get, the more aware we are of the bad stuff. This colors our point of view. We tend to think the world is getting worse, even during times when it’s getting better. This is a trait that groups like the WTS can use against us, BTW. How many times have they asked, “Don’t you agree that the world is getting worse?” Then they segue into their spiel.
I remember the 80s as a time of innocence, yet there was the constant threat of nuclear war and terrorism. I was just a kid, though. I see the 80s through a child’s eyes, and the twenty-first century through the eyes of 38 year old. Everyone does this.
I’m not saying that your wrong, exactly. Only that these trends go up and down with the times, even though it may seem they are going one direction only. The one constant–the barometer that keeps moving down, down, down–is ourselves and how we see the world.
I hope you can take some comfort in that. I try to. I’d like to call myself a secular humanist, but only reluctantly. Only to the extent that humans are the only game in town, and hence, the only hope we have. No gods will be swooping in the save us. No angels will show up on our doorsteps bearing gifts. It’s all us, sink or swim.
I choose to swim.
Speaking of spiels….
Thanks again for commenting.
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Cynthia says:
August 14, 2011 at 6:25 AM
I’m an ex-JW & an athiest also. I’m glad I found your site! It’s quite funny & oh so true. Between working at a cancer clinic & (what I call) being brainwashed & pretty damn much forced to be a JW when I was about 12 yrs old…I couldn’t help but NOT to believe in any kind of god or religion. I (like you) will NEVER step foot in a Kingdom Hall or for.that matter any other church ever again. As an ex-JW I know everything i’ve read on here is true. You have a light & interesting way of putting things that makes it fun to read. I will be back!
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The Atheist Geek says:
August 14, 2011 at 9:11 AM
Thank you Cynthia. I hope to have some more posts, soon. I’m also fiddling with another XJW project. And I just got around to signing on to some social networking sites. I’m discovering new sources of info and complaint. :-)
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4 Responses to What’s The Biggest Reason Why Jehovah’s Witnesses Disapprove Of Ex-Witnesses?
Ty says:
August 9, 2011 at 3:37 PM
The sad truth is that any argument that appears to have merit will be dismissed as, “apostate.”
Apostate is the label the JW’s slap onto anything they don’t know how to refute.
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ruben says:
September 9, 2011 at 4:16 PM
I’am a current Jw and I have some doubts in my mind, can you please help me? Thank you.
Ruben-
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ruben says:
September 9, 2011 at 4:18 PM
I’am a current Jw and I have some doubts in my mind, can you please help me? Sometimes I feel as I was stuck in some sourta Matrix dimension here. Thank you.
Ruben-
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The Atheist Geek says:
September 9, 2011 at 4:51 PM
Ruben,
I’m not sure what you want me to help you with. But it you’re looking for advice, I would suggest you check out JWD–http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/
or JWR–http://jehovahswitnessrecovery.com/phpBB3/index.php
You could also email me if you didn’t want to get overly specific here in public. My email address is on my About page.
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2 Responses to News And Links For Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses: Film About Jehovah’s Witnesses And Blood Transfusions
Ty says:
July 1, 2011 at 5:52 PM
For an atheist, there’s a lot of irony in watching one group of Christian’s pointing out how wrong another group of Christians is.
“Those idiots think 2+2=5!!! All truly God fearing people know it actually equals 3!!!”
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The Atheist Geek says:
July 2, 2011 at 6:25 AM
Same thoughts here. It’s not as if the GB has any real claim to authority that anyone other than a JW could see or measure. They claim to have an invisible connection to Jesus, who — for some reason — is manipulating their decisions on a very subtle, subconscious, almost nonexistent level.
Really? In other words, they’re more or less like every other fundamentalist group asserting some sort of mystical authority that offers no meaningful proof. When proving their views, they are often force to refer to themselves or to pseudo-science. Or to misquoting real experts.
BTW, here’s a link to something cool that I wish I had added to this update. Or had done myself.
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9 Responses to Are Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses Just “Mentally Diseased?”
Terri says:
October 30, 2011 at 10:55 AM
Hey! Just want you to know that while I am not an atheist, I AM an EX JW, and, when I saw your “logo” of Keanu Reeves doctored up, I knew you were a kindred spirit! That being said, I also enjoy your articles, although, you do need to spell check……….I was going to link to FB and was kinda embarrassed to see the word “weeped” used instead of “wept”. Could you correct that? Keep on keepin’ on!
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The Atheist Geek says:
October 30, 2011 at 12:30 PM
Never even noticed that. Thanks.
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Ty says:
November 3, 2011 at 3:41 PM
This sort of thing just smacks of desperation to me from the Tower. People are leaving in record numbers. Can’t have the members thinking, “I wonder if they’re on to something?”
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Annon Annon says:
November 29, 2011 at 12:18 PM
The term “Mentally Diseased” is actually taken from the bible itself. 1 Tim in fact…Not sure why you are all going crazy about it, it has been in the original greek a long while!
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The Atheist Geek says:
November 29, 2011 at 6:07 PM
I am aware that the term “mentally diseased” is taken from the NWT. So what? The fact that you think this matters or excuses anything suggests, to me at least, that you haven’t really thought this through.
In other words, I’m as confused by your attitude as you are by mine. I think all the other people who were shocked by the use of the term “mentally diseased” see it as I do. Let me try to explain it this way:
If I wrote an article that said that all JWs were morons or accused you of being a loon because you’re a JW, I don’t think you’d care if I put the term in quotes or if I had borrowed the exact wording from another source. It would be just as insulting, and unless I made it clear that I disagreed with the statement, you would assume that I agreed with the insult. The fact that I borrowed the wording from another source wouldn’t matter, especially if I agree with the sentiment.
Imagine if I wrote that offensive article about you or about JWs, and you called me on it. How would you react if I shrugged it off and said something like, “Hey, don’t get mad at me. I’m just quoting that other guy who said it first. Why don’t you blame him?”
I don’t think you’d see it the same way. I don’t even think you should see it the same way because my attempt to shift the blame would be a cop out, plain and simple.
The reality is, whether I’m borrowing another persons words to express the thought or not, I just insulted you. The Society accusing apostates of being “mentally diseased” is no different.
To me, that’s actually quite obvious and not hard at all to understand.
It’s the same way when fundamentalists accuse atheists of being fools because their Bible translation refers to doubters in this way. When we take offense, they always throw up their hands and say something like, “Hey! Don’t get mad at me. I’m just quoting the Bible.”
This, too, is a cop out. It’s often employed to get a dig in with impunity. If you didn’t agree with the Bible’s insult, you shouldn’t have quoted it as a judgment about atheists. Or, in this case, about people the Society labels as apostates, which seems to include most people who leave “the truth.” (That was the actual subject of the article, BTW.)
Just curious, did you actually read the article? Or even the one after it, which was about a related topic?
In any event, I really don’t see why this is confusing to anyone. It seems very simple to me.
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Jamel says:
December 15, 2011 at 5:47 PM
Iam sorry for responding at such later time. I wondererd into this chat. Excuse me..I tend to wander with thoughts aswell. So if i ramble, bear with me. Now my thoughts on the perpectives from JWs and fellow “ex witnesses “falling away due to weakness qoute. I believe what the society was sayin was that those who were weak spiritually whether a new student or exprienced student who may have compromised their spiritual balance by leaning towards immoral conducts that hinder their steps onto recieving full spiritual understanding…So many pick on the Society for their reasons. All there objective is to maintain the puriety of true spirituality. You and others may differ on what may be deemed true religon but none the less the Society has takin on the responcibility of preserving this in a world or Era in where religon may soon be absolete. Unprofitingbfrom it unlike other religious services prospering from it in full veiw of the media, true?. I say that to say this,, living outside the box Jws have constructed for us (ex witnesses:)) i’ve come to see how the world treats those trying to make a difference for the better. Check history. How could someone bring a case or complaint against the meek one whos trying to teach other in the ways in which u should walk? …in also the case of the Society saying mentally diseased? It was a little harsh since they didnt seperate the true apostates from apostates as a collective group like myself whos learning to strenghten my “thinkin abilities in order to dig for the truth as if for fine treasures and discern wat is true and a lie. But the Society are Not prophets but messengers continuing on to spread a messageof what we belive or might have belived to be Truth to those willing to except it, true? Last, to a empathetic defence of wat seems to be the Truth,, Imagine a school..classroom full of honest students and a single well educated teacher. During a lesson one student imposes a question thats relevent but would require attention at later time because of the class being actively in study now. So the teacher postpones further inquiry until later. But the student believes that the teacher is not as knowledgable as he is held to be. So student goes on internet and school newsletters to expose this notion. Its simular to the Governing body in the Society. With outspoken students who seek to slander or defame the name of the school and the administrative staff thats seekin to further the education of such ones. Apostate! Whereas you have the students who stay afterschool for private studies to learn what they inquired about. Now in between you have those torn between what theyve learned and what they want to do with their lives after their mature educations. How do you seperate those ones from the Falling or Failing students? ..apostate detention or apostate expulsion?? The Society is very aware of Satan and his machination. So they are forced to protect the flock or student body by any means within spiritual reasoning. …..pause.
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The Atheist Geek says:
December 15, 2011 at 7:04 PM
I will respond to this when I have more time to read it. Far be it from me to complain about lengthy comments since mine get pretty long, too! :)
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Jamel says:
December 15, 2011 at 9:47 PM
Ok ready to build with you when u can. . .o sorry if there some inconsistancies . I have a problem with effectively getting my mid-points across before my main point focus:)
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The Atheist Geek says:
December 16, 2011 at 6:32 PM
Jamel, sorry, but I think that English isn’t your first language. Either that, or you’re messing with me here. Your post was almost unreadable. You also seem to be more interested in converts than you are in commenting on the actual article above.
These are not good ways to begin a dialogue, Jamel.
Still, what I could make out was pretty familiar WT stuff.
“All right, we’re the grownups here and God wants you to do as we say. Oh, you gosh darn kids in the back row just don’t get it! So sad really. We’re only trying to help you see things our way because we’re so right and stuff. Here, just read this Watchtower mag while I tussle your hair. Oh, and you owe me a buck for the mag. Hey, free isn’t free, kid! Satan will get ya if you don’t read our truth! Come back here!!!”
This is what every isolationist sect that is generally deemed to be odd, fear mongering, or otherwise “out there” likes to say. For me, it remains as completely unconvincing as it is creepy cult-like.
Have you ever noticed that anyone who doesn’t think the way the Society wants them to is presumed to be screwed up somehow? It never occurs to the Society’s leaders, or many Witnesses, that it might be the other way around.
This is conveniently deemed to be worldly or apostate thinking by the Society. I consider it the mark of an earnest quest for knowledge and a sign of humility.
Thanks, Jamel, but I’ve been there and done that. I’m still very glad I did.
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5 Responses to News And Links For Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses: Inside Australia’s Chilling New Cult
Ty says:
September 29, 2011 at 3:46 PM
I like google+. Twitter, not so much.
That defend website looks like hours of lulz.
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The Atheist Geek says:
September 29, 2011 at 5:08 PM
Main thing about Twitter is that there seems to be a lot of writers, editors, and other people like that on there. So I get to lurk and suck up their tips and advice. :-)
I could probably do articles on both web sites (I think they’re by the same folks anyway). I’ve just been picking away at my podiobook project of late.
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Ty says:
September 29, 2011 at 3:52 PM
Ooh, I like their defense of the 607BC date. “Every secular historian thinks this date is wrong, but none of our numerology works if it is, therefor NYAH NYAH NYAH WE AREN’T LISTENING!!!”
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The Atheist Geek says:
September 29, 2011 at 5:11 PM
I think that’s how they defend a lot of things. Have you heard about the investigation in UK over their referring to apostates as “mentally diseased?” It could actually be something like a hate crime over there, apparently.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/war-of-words-breaks-out-among-jehovahs-witnesses-2361448.html
Here’s a quote from another article that kinda sums it up:
“Current members of the church are starting to believe the term ‘mentally diseased’ could be in breach of British hatred laws; multiple groups of former Witnesses have made an official complaint to the police, who are now investigating the matter.”
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Ty says:
September 29, 2011 at 6:57 PM
I have a low tolerance for noise in my signal.
Twitter is an extremely noisy communication channel. Filtering it is too much work for it to be worthwhile to me.
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One Response to News and Links: Christopher Hitchens Has Died
Ty says:
December 21, 2011 at 9:10 PM
Gotta smile at that famous ‘Christian love’.
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4 Responses to A Reaction To “‘Mentally Diseased’ and Politcal Correctness.”
Spiritualbrother says:
November 7, 2011 at 4:33 AM
Good points,Isaac. As for Tom I think he wants to defend his beloved organization against what he feels are unjust accusations.
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The Atheist Geek says:
November 7, 2011 at 6:05 PM
I think you’re right, Spiritualbrother. I just think that the truth lies somewhere in between.
I also feel this is a good opportunity to point out some of the cultural issues between JWs and former members. I’m working on a audiobook about this stuff right now, so it’s especially on my mind. :-)
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The Atheist Geek says:
November 7, 2011 at 9:13 PM
I just noticed that all my posts have suddenly gone all italicized on me. Sorry everybody, I don’t know what causing it yet.
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Vincent Deporter says:
March 8, 2012 at 1:42 PM
Here’s the wonderful letter, written by Barbara Anderson, who intelligently addresses the slanted and horrid attitude of the Society.
http://www.freeminds.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3167:an-open-letter-from-barbara-anderson-to-watch-towers-writing-department&catid=57:watchtower-news
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9 Responses to For The Disfellowshipped, The Bad Associates, And The Disowned: You Really Do Have A Choice
Cynthia says:
March 25, 2012 at 5:54 PM
Ex-jw here & an atheist for about 12yrs. I find it hard to fathom that I ever even “believed” there is or was a god. Hell, there’s books about the boogie man, santa clause…we’ve all been told about the tooth fairy growing up but were all know none of that is true. Why would I ever believe yet another book written by men about a god when clearly there is no proof that this book is true also? And you’re right, we make our own families. They don’t have to be blood. My (blood) brother still deeply entrenched into the so- called “truth” is only my brother because we have the same birth parents. He lives 15 miles away and I haven’t seen or heard from him for almost 2 yrs since our mother passed. He wasn’t there for her (she left the JW’s yrs ago), is not there for me or my son and as far as I’m concerned he’s just someone I used to know that’s caught up in the cult. And that is NOT family.
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Josephine says:
April 7, 2012 at 10:38 PM
Thank you once again!! 4 years away from “the truth” and still gun shy aboot being around people. We moved 1200 miles away from everyone we know, so that helped. What I find amusing is, my hubs was a born and bred JW and he is moving on just fine. While I, an non-organic JW, am having the trouble. Better still, it’s his family doing the shunning!!! I come from a “worldly” family. LOL
Anyway, thank you again for what you do.
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The Atheist Geek says:
April 15, 2012 at 7:33 AM
I don’t know I thought I had already approved your comments, Josephine, but that’s why they didn’t show up sooner. Thanks for the kind words.
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Jan Reier says:
June 1, 2012 at 12:18 AM
I’m sorry to hear that your family has shunned you. I too have been shunned, as an ex JW, my wife divorced me when I discovered what lying false prophets the Watchtower really is. I know you hurt, its been 20 years since I left and my life is a wreck still, I find it incredibly hard to get over never talking to my daughter, mother, brothers and sisters. What I don’t get is, how can you be an athiest? If you see a birdhouse, you must know someone made it, do you think the birdhouse made itself? How much more complex is this universe, the stars, the earth, life, think about it, where did life come from? If evolution is true. then why aren’t there cavemen today? Shouldn’t everything still be in a state of evolution? There is no God, so shouts the fool! I know you were hurt, the Watchtower Society is just one of the false prophets Jesus warned us about in Matt. 7:15. Don’t give up on God, there is not another hope and in case you haven’t heard, hell is real, I don’t care what the false prophets teach, they are habitual liars. Please consider how simple a birdhouse is and yet, even you must agree it has a maker, can the universe that exists with awesome laws and design just happen? Don’t be a fool that says there is no God. Seek him while you still can. I will pray for you and my ex family.
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The Atheist Geek says:
June 1, 2012 at 10:44 AM
Jan…oh boy. There’s a lot of foot-in-mouth kinda stuff going on with this post. I must warn you before you go any further that I question your motives. Please don’t expect me to be especially nice here because you have already earned a fair amount of disdain. The sad thing is that many evangelists are strangely oblivious to the effect their efforts…and their conduct…has on those they try to convert. I am going to try to explain some of the problems now. Some of what you’re about to read is simply my impatience with people like yourself. Perhaps my reasons will become clear as you read along.
First, no, my family has not shunned me. I have no blood relatives who are JWs. I was never disfellowshipped. Perhaps, in your over-eagerness to proselytize, you didn’t actually bother to read my article or to note anything about my history. If you had, you would probably have noticed that I don’t appreciate being preached at to help others further their own personal goals. If you had bothered to get the details straight, it would have been easier to convince me that you had good intentions. But you blew it. Next time, please try harder to respect the people you are trying to convert instead of simply seeing them as targets.
Secondly, I have an army of local JWs, Mormons, Pentecostals, and even Gideons where I live who are (frankly) just as bad at converting others as you are. Note that I try to respect the feelings of religious believers who post here, but as you are beginning to realize, my tolerance for condescending proselytizers is quite low. I hope my response will encourage you to think before you try to convert anyone else. Believe it or not, I am trying to help you as much as I am guilty of getting a few things off my chest with this response.
Thirdly, your post was more offensive than it was encouraging. Mostly, this just made me sad. This is why I’m being so candid with you instead of trying to mellow what I say with weasel words and all that. You see, it was you who kicked open the door with comments like, “There is no God, so shouts the fool!” and “Don’t give up on God, there is not another hope and in case you haven’t heard, hell is real, I don’t care what the false prophets teach, they are habitual liars.” Either you are so clueless that you have no idea how offensive these comments are, or you simply don’t care because you want to put the beat down on somebody and you thought I was that somebody. Way to reach out, BTW. If you want to lord it over someone, I’m sure you have a neighbor you can torment with all the fear mongering and insults. And no, I don’t care if the Bible says nonbelievers are fools. I’m blaming you for your comments because you made them. Don’t try to hide behind excuses. It will only make it worse.
Fourthly, I find it unlikely that you really are concerned about the hardships I’ve experienced due to being shunned by my family. Not that they have shunned me, but let’s pretend you got it right just for fun. Jan, like 98% of the evangelists I have met throughout my life, you seem more interested in the satisfaction that comes from putting others in their place, knowing that Jesus is watching and is very proud of you, and/or the general euphoria that most evangelists feel when they think they’ve done something that will earn them a place in paradise, than you actually are in making me a convert for my own good. Not that such an assumption isn’t condescending and annoying in and of itself, but I digress. It should be obvious that you have done more to push me away from your goal than to draw me in. And I seriously doubt I’m the last person who’s reacted this way to your attitude and assumptions. Please consider this: taking my comments to heart will not only help you become a better evangelist, a better servant of Jesus, and a better person, it will also make you more bearable to your neighbors and co-workers I’m sure. That is demonstrable, so my efforts can actually make the world a slightly better place. The idea that making me a Christian will improve anything is not demonstrable. Who is doing more good here?
Finally, please learn something about atheism, atheists, and the arguments you put forth before going another round with any nonbeliever. Again, you come off like a bad stereotype for evangelists everywhere. You are so sure, but so clueless. Jan, you can’t pigeonhole an entire group of people into a convenient stereotype and just run with it instead of taking the time to learn anything about your intended victim. It’s easier and quicker, yes, but it’s also lazy and ineffective. It gets you into trouble, like it did with me today. It offends, even unintentionally. It makes you look like “the fool” instead of me, the atheist. And the arguments you pulled out…dude, I’m sorry, but they suck. They have been shot down a zillion times. You will have to actually take the time to look up what I mean, because I’m not going to tell you. And frankly, you should have taken the time to do this already. If you care about making converts, then you should feel motivated to actually look them up TODAY. There are blogs, videos, and podcasts that are available for free all over the web that explain why they don’t work. Of course, if all you really care about is telling people what they should do with their lives and getting that imaginary shoulder-pat from Jesus for your efforts, I’m sure you won’t bother.
But Jesus is watching. Will he be impressed, or will he shake his head with disappointment at you?
Jan, in summary, I realize that I’m not being terribly nice to you. But you weren’t nice to me. And this is not a place for you to score points with Jesus. This post was for XJWs who are having a bad time of it and you took that and turned it into a chance to push your agenda. I don’t appreciate that. The theme for today: please think before you convert.
I have attempted to make you aware of why many people dislike evangelists so you can begin to improve and even improve other proselytizers you may know. That, at least, is a positive. And I spent a lot more time and effort on it than you did your comment. It wasn’t my only motive here, I admit. But I’m hoping you’ll take some of it to heart and, as a consequence, will be less clueless and offensive in the future. If you come back with a respectful attitude, I will return that attitude. Just remember: neither I nor my readers are here for you to earn your way into Heaven at our expense.
Not everyone sees the world as you do. Try to be more open about that and you’ll be more compassionate. Right now–and I’m sorry for saying this–but I think it’s mostly about you and what you need. Again, that makes me sad. :-(
Have a better one, Jan. Peace.
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Gina Melton says:
June 6, 2012 at 2:30 PM
Believe as you wish, but all Christianity and thoroughly reading the Bible ever did for me was make me into a non Deist Buddhist. Namaste.
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The Atheist Geek says:
June 6, 2012 at 3:24 PM
I find many things useful about Buddhist philosophy, Gina. Been trying to get my meditation on for some time, now. :-)
Thanks for the comment.
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Tommy Mac says:
June 8, 2012 at 2:39 AM
@ Jan:
Have to back up AG here. Not that you will ever probably return to this page to read the follow up comments; I have the feeling you’re more than happy with your “Hit & Run” form of evangelism.
1st: The bird house analogy: one of those tired and ever so weak comparisons that borders on brain dead.
Look, science has proved that the Earth is millions of years old, the universe billions…and yet proponents of The Bible wish us to believe it was done in six literal days, or six figurative days of 1000 years each, depending on which denomination you subscribe to.
The question then becomes: why would God give us the brains to discover a science that DISPROVES what He had written in His Holy Book?
Consider the speed of light, and try and understand that there are stars we can see that are projecting light BILLIONS of years older than any religion claims the universe actually IS…think about that, and leave your birdhouse story for Sunday School kids, k?
then there’s your “Hell is real” comment.
I find it mind boggling in the extreme that anyone can simultaneously believe in a God Of Eternal Love and and the concept of Eternal Damnation. It’s frankly one of the FEW things I thought the JW’s got right ( yes I am a former Dub) in that they did not teach the belief in Hell, only death as “eternal sleep.”
Examine your God…really LOOK at Him. Do you not find it hypocritical in any way that He would send His Son to supposedly DIE for the sins of all Mankind and yet still condemn us to HELL for an eternity of suffering if we either do not believe in Him or follow the wrong religion???
and for the record: threatening an atheist with Hell is like threatening to hit a boxer with a wet spaghetti noodle…we’re not exactly gonna shake in our heathen booties, sorry.
Do us all a favor: Turn off your computer, go crawl in a corner somewhere and spend your free time praying for our souls…and shut the f**k up.
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4 Responses to News And Links For Atheists: A New Strategy
The Atheist Geek says:
March 6, 2012 at 6:44 PM
Anyone having problems accessing the site?
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Ty says:
March 6, 2012 at 8:51 PM
And now it works. I’m really curious about why I was getting thrown at the webring every time I showed up.
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Josephine says:
April 7, 2012 at 10:48 PM
I have been sent to webring a couple of times of separate occasions.
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The Atheist Geek says:
April 15, 2012 at 7:31 AM
Sorry it took so long to approve your comment! I thought I had already done so. Thanks!
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6 Responses to News And Links For Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses: Chemicals found buried in upstate NY…
Danny Haszard says:
December 31, 2011 at 3:49 PM
Straight up doctrinal facts on Jehovah Witness cult.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses teach preach that Jesus had his return aka second coming October 1914,then they spin all sorts of doctrinal embellishments on that date with 1918 being their appointment by Jesus as sole heirs of this 1914 Kingdom coming.
They teach Michael the Archangel is one and same as Jesus.
Have a deadly dogma prohibiting whole blood transfusion but use cow’s blood calling it *Hemopure*.
They teach only 144,000 go to heaven,on and on and on with made up man made dogmas……JW are a spin-off of the second adventist and have this in common with the SDA both of which shun Christmas holiday.
Jehovah’s Witnesses promotion of their Watchtower sect has the net effect of stumbling and turning people off to the real Gospel.
Jesus said: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte; and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves” (Matt 23:15)
-
Danny Haszard born 3rd generation Jehovah’s Witness dannyhaszard.com
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The Atheist Geek says:
January 1, 2012 at 9:41 AM
Danny,
Sorry bro, but you are dangerously close to spamming my web site right now. These are not well thought out arguments that are relevant to the posts in any way. They neither support nor deny anything I write about, and they do not encourage any sort of discussion. Instead of adding to the articles, they seem more like a list of gripes and complaints that have no bearing on anything here other than the fact that I do criticize the same organization you are criticizing. But writing stuff like that is kinda, like, my job here. You know? Do that on your own web site if that’s the tone you’re going for.
If you truly want to write something here, contact me about doing an article as a guest. But I will want a different style and tone than the ones shown in your comments. If you don’t think I’m treating you fairly, convince me I’m wrong by contacting me directly. You can find my email on the About page. I would appreciate it.
No disrespect intended.
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Ty says:
January 2, 2012 at 6:53 AM
“Jehovah’s Witnesses promotion of their Watchtower sect has the net effect of stumbling and turning people off to the real Gospel.”
Oh no! Their fake beliefs are different from your fake beliefs?
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The Atheist Geek says:
January 2, 2012 at 6:06 PM
Yeah, I can’t help but feel that Danny is just posting stuff here to promote his own web site. I asked him once to stop it once already.
I don’t even mind the religious comments, but I want them to be relevant to the topic. Right now, it kinda seems like spam. :-/
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Sleepy says:
January 13, 2012 at 2:28 AM
I don’t like spam.
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The Atheist Geek says:
January 13, 2012 at 6:08 PM
Not sure why your comment was held up, Sleepy. But thanks for the input.
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2 Responses to Update on “Truth Be Told” Documentary About Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses
Danny Haszard says:
December 29, 2011 at 5:56 AM
The Jehovah’s Witnesses on one hand fill their books and lectures with details about how evil and corrupt every other religion is, but then when theirs is exposed as corrupt they fall back on how it’s “voluntary” to be a member, and how it’s not nice to say nasty things about them, and how they’re being “persecuted.”
Jehovah’s Witnesses are unpopular for many reasons, none of which matched the early church except for non-political involvement, which is not exclusive to them at all. They are like carnival hucksters preaching the need to become a Jehovah’s Witness or die at Armageddon.
They say they promote good family life? Only until you disagree with the leadership in Brooklyn on the slightest of points, and then they completely divide and destroy the family. Then they write hypocritical articles like the new July 2009 Awake! “The Bible’s Viewpoint – Is It Wrong to Change Your Religion?” and make themselves look open-minded and progressive, but practice the most destructive forms of shunning of all religions if you disobey the leadership’s ever-changing doctrines, dates and rules.
Anyone can be persecuted, which proves nothing if you are a religion invented in the late 1800s by a man who was into pyramidology, numerology, and who stood on the top of a building with a white sheet waiting to be raptured. 130 years later, they are still awaiting a false hope. -
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Danny Haszard dannyhaszard (dot) com
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The Atheist Geek says:
December 30, 2011 at 9:11 AM
No need to advertise like that here, Danny. This is already a pro-ex Witness site. :-)
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20 Responses to What Is Sparlock, The New Ex-Witness Meme?
Phinehas Treptow says:
June 2, 2012 at 12:44 PM
The WatchTower Corporation filed claims and had the video’s taken down. I made this video with parts of the animated feature criticizing it. It ‘should’ be protected under the fair use act. Anyways, since the link above is no longer good I thought I would share this:
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The Atheist Geek says:
June 2, 2012 at 1:11 PM
Thanks, bro.
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The Atheist Geek says:
June 2, 2012 at 3:37 PM
If others want to post the videos to other sites, or make critiques like the one Phinephas posted, I will keep putting links here to them all. Just keep me updated.
Maybe some big web site will take a look at this and find it worthy of spreading around.
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Ruben Ortiz says:
June 2, 2012 at 3:59 PM
Please join us on the fan page
https://www.facebook.com/SparlockTheWizard
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The Atheist Geek says:
June 2, 2012 at 10:52 PM
Ruben, I’m already a member of that group. Maybe others will see the link and join, too.
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Ty says:
June 3, 2012 at 6:46 AM
I totally want a Sparlock. But the arcane failure penalties for wearing armor make a fighter wizard problematic.
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The Atheist Geek says:
June 3, 2012 at 7:17 AM
Someone’s been playing Diablo 3 again, haven’t they? :P
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The Atheist Geek says:
June 3, 2012 at 7:38 AM
Ty, here’s our next bestseller!http://martianmigrainepress.com/submissions/the/chronicles/of/sparlock/the/warrior/wizard
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Ethan says:
June 4, 2012 at 12:56 AM
I so hope Sparlock gets on the Simpsons. That would make this ex-jw a VERY happy man. :)
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Dan says:
June 5, 2012 at 12:21 AM
I also wrote a critique of that video here http://junkdrawerofthought.blogspot.com/2012/06/this-is-sparlock.html
Thanks for posting this article.
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The Atheist Geek says:
June 6, 2012 at 8:09 AM
Thanks Dan. I tried writing to PZ when I wrote the other atheist sites, but couldn’t find a contact button. Glad he caught it anyway. He called them out on their atheist articles in the AWAKE! a while back, too.
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Dan says:
June 6, 2012 at 12:26 AM
This story was just picked up by Pharyngula. It’s getting a lot of comments. http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/06/05/episode-cccxxxv-the-sparlock-thread/
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Amelia says:
June 26, 2012 at 10:20 AM
I had my youtube videos removed by order of the Watchtower after they got over 80,000 hits and and had over 600 comments. That was in 6 days. I wish I had copied the comments from JWs because they were outrageous claiming I had made the video myself to discredit jehovah’s witnesses and put them in a bad light. I wish I had that much talent and money! I took screenshots of the watchtower copyright notice and kept copies of the emails I received. I think it is good to keep a papertrail of these events regarding watchtower. If anyone doubts search my youtube channel as I have left them up and I dont think youtube has taken them down and wont until the date for me to appeal expires.
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The Atheist Geek says:
June 26, 2012 at 3:17 PM
Thanks for that, Amelia. Again, far as I can tell, this is legit. To everyone else: if it wasn’t made by the WTS, why did they have it removed initially?
Amelia, if you’d like to send me the file, I will post them to add to the legitimacy of the video.
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William says:
June 26, 2012 at 12:34 PM
First time visit out here, h/t to Penn.
All I can say is wow! Stunningly wow!
Although there are many many examples of irrational behavior due to mysticism (religion being the most prevalent form), the video (part 2 was what I viewed) is again a POWERFUL example to illustrate vividly the child abuse that goes on under the pathetic guise of religion- particularly Christianity, and in this particular case JW’s.
Folks, there are real children out there all over America, and around the world, being indoctrinated into this bullshit without even a second thought. No, worse, with the active thought that what they are doing to their children is moral – that it is good for them! It is profoundly child abuse, make no mistake about it. For many it takes years (if ever) to recover and join the real world as living, thinking, rational beings.
We all admire Mark Twain as one of Americas most treasured authors, so I will leave you with this quote of his:
“Strange…a God who could make good children as easily as bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; mouths Golden Rules and forgiveness multiplied seventy times seven and invented Hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man’s acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him!”
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The Atheist Geek says:
June 26, 2012 at 3:15 PM
William, you will find lots of stuff about this online if you do a search for Sparlock. There’s a concrete company by that name, but everything else is pretty much about this. It spread faster than the DVD! Many JWs haven’t even seen it yet, so many of them are claiming it’s a fraud. Far as I can tell, everything says it’s legit though.
Thanks for posting and for visiting the site.
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Sydney says:
June 26, 2012 at 11:43 PM
WOW! Just WOW!! Damn..I was a Witness til they threw me out when I was 20 the big Disfellowshipment. THANK GOD..LOL My family is still in and some of them still don’t speak to me but whatever..This right here is a thousand times Wrong.
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Pingback: Ten Things You Didn’t Know about Jehovah’s Witnesses. | Michigan Skeptics Association
Elyse says:
December 4, 2012 at 7:03 PM
To anyone who thinks this video is fake… I saw the dvd box at my very Jehovah’s Witness parents home quite awhile ago. It wasn’t until I heard the name Sparlock and saw this article that I realized exactly what it was. Wow. I think I will be slipping it into my bag next time I am there so I can pop it into the ol’ dvd player when I am feeling down.
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Ana with a red A says:
January 12, 2013 at 2:05 PM
This video is very real. I have the copy in my home. I am a recently open Atheist living with my parents in a Jahovah’s Witness house hold. Tensions have been high since I came out of the atheist closet to them three days ago. I have seen the whole video and didn’t really have a problem with it. Yes it’s a contradiction to say that magic is bad when many biblical prophets preformed miricals in the name of Jahovah, but what we believe and teach our children should be our own business. To a witness it’s immoral to teach our children to NOT believe in a God at all. We as people need to find our common ground and stand on it. Without reaching over each others lines just to smack each other in the face. I don’t agree with my parents and I don’t agree with the way they treat me for being atheist, but I understand how they feel and I allow them the right to feel it. Without argument or bitterness, I simply accept what they believe in with or without their acceptance of me. I’m happy with myself and my parents and I wouldn’t change them for the world.
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2 Responses to News And Links For Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses: Governing Body Letter, Reduced Magazines
Ty says:
April 26, 2012 at 5:17 PM
Good luck in school.
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The Atheist Geek says:
April 30, 2012 at 6:08 PM
Thanks man!
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2 Responses to UPDATES On Sexual Abuse Case In California
Jesse says:
June 21, 2012 at 11:22 AM
Wow, those Facebook posts are disgusting. I wonder how I would have reacted if I heard a story like this when I was a JW. I can’t believe people are throwing comments out like, “you’ll get yours armageddon, for lying about the org!” For any active JWs that may be lurking on this site I want to remind you that you read a news story. You don’t have all the facts! A jury found beyond a reasonable doubt that the Watchtowers policy protected a child molester. Candice is a victim and deserves sympathy not threats of destruction. I had witnesses at my door a few days ago and not bowing that I was a former member the man said, “Jehovahs witness are the most loving organization on the Earth today!” It’s Funny what some people consider loving behavior.
P.S. FYI Jws, your org can appeal the verdict but they will pay 10% interest a year on the money owed. So, if they lose the appeals you may have to up your donations to help cover the costs. Just put the money in the box titled, “worldwide work.” And least now you know what the money is going to.
Jesse
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The Atheist Geek says:
June 22, 2012 at 9:02 AM
Jesse, big news you might want to comment on at your own site: it appears that the Society’s assets have been frozen. (!!!!) I have been searching the web looking for any comments from lawyers and whatnot. But for those with JW relatives, it could mean that they’ll take this as a sign that the world is ending. That in and of itself is news.
I’m working on an article about it right now.
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8 Responses to The Biggest News Since Sparlock: OAKLAND JURY HOLDS JEHOVAH WITNESSES RESPONSIBLE FOR SEXUAL ABUSE OF FREMONT CHILD
Dan says:
June 14, 2012 at 10:35 PM
Thanks for reporting on this. I agree that this could be big news, especially when the jury decides how much the punitive damages will be.
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The Atheist Geek says:
June 15, 2012 at 9:29 AM
Sparlock was an opportunity to make the world aware that there are serious problems within the WTS and that the culture of JWs isn’t just about average, harmless Christians who like to knock on doors. This is a far greater opportunity than Sparlock was. The Caleb DVD was merely creepy. This is genuinely damaging, evil, and screwed up on a whole deeper level.
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Valerie Olson says:
June 15, 2012 at 5:11 PM
This is shockingly similar to my experience as a child in the 1960′s whose mother studied in home with several members of Jehovahs Witnesses for a few years.
In JW theology, (at least back then), there would be 144,000 who would reign with Jehovah in heaven and the rest of the JWs would inherit the earth. Non- believers would cease to exist. My mother became acquanted with a man who claimed to be one of the last of the 144,000 destined to reign in heaven. He invited my (single) mom, two younger sisters and I over to watch television at his home a few times since we didn’t have one. He found a few occaisions to fondle me in the dark while we were there. I was eight years old. My mom became suspicious and questioned me. I was embarrased and said nothing happened. This also happened in California. We stopped seeing him after that, and I don’t recall his name. It can’t be the same man, so this seems to have been in the organization for a long time.
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The Atheist Geek says:
June 15, 2012 at 6:44 PM
No, it isn’t new. Silent Lambs is an organization that is trying to put a stop to it. The fact that an org rose up for this specific cause against this specific religion is an indication of how bad it is all by itself, really.
I’m sorry to hear about the things that happened to you. There seems to be plenty of cases like it, so it certainly doesn’t have to be the same person involved with this one. But whenever you have an org or a culture that values authority too highly, then you’ll have problems with people taking advantage of those systems. Unfortunately, power in the WTS only flows in one direction. Elders will always win against average Witnesses. Unless they break the rules by taking their case outside of that system, as this person did.
Good for her. I hope your life is better now.
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Helen Hail says:
July 4, 2012 at 7:01 PM
Will you be following the appeal of the JW’s against the judgement?
There are plenty of Brits who are as interested as I am and so far the case hasn’t hit our newsdesks (deplorable).
Regards, Helen.
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The Atheist Geek says:
July 4, 2012 at 7:39 PM
Definitely. Right now, there seems to be a lot of garbage swirling around about it. I almost didn’t even post the claim that their assets were being frozen because it sounded hard to believe. People are batting this stuff back and forth at the moment.
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Spade says:
August 29, 2012 at 2:48 AM
This news troubles me. Wasn’t Candace Conti originally supposed to receive 28 million dollars?? It seems like the Watchtower stalled the case, sugarcoated it, and whined and begged until they lessened the amount to a measly 11 million.
True, the money doesn’t really matter, (especially when the JW’s reputation is sure to deteriorate because of these past events.) But I am a bit troubled that even a major case like this is unable to stop these religious nutcases.
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The Atheist Geek says:
August 29, 2012 at 12:08 PM
I think this is just how the process works. The law is a complicated and fickle thing. AFAIC, she won, and that’s good.
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One Response to News And Links For Atheists: Intelligent Design is Stupid-by Neil deGrasse Tyson
Kevin says:
June 7, 2012 at 10:58 PM
Great videos, thanks!
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6 Responses to Was The Sparlock Video Really Made By The Watchtower Society?
Call Headquarters says:
June 27, 2012 at 3:37 PM
This is brilliant. You have created a time capsule. At the moment, JW’s are forming opinions of this video before the WT has had the chance to tell them what their opinion should be. They are judging the video with their true personality and not their cult personality. Wonderful. When the WT tells them what they SHOULD think of it, I am sure the discomfort of cognitive dissonance will overwhelm some, and they will wake up.
Praise Sparlock the Magical Warrior Wizard, fighting to free those in the grips of the Evil Watchtower Empire!
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Sing L Forfun says:
June 27, 2012 at 4:26 PM
Thanks for this post, I have bm’d it for doubters. Your evidence is overwhelming, and it is an astute observation that the JW’s disclaiming it are speaking from their true self. They will sing a different tune when instructed by the FDS.
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Chuck D says:
June 27, 2012 at 4:51 PM
This is a great example of what is called the “veil of ignorance” in action. This phrase does not refer to being “ignorant,” but rather to being unaware of the outcome of a particular issue before rendering an opinion and thus showing an unbiased opinion. You see this all the time in political speech; whatever is said or done by the opposition is always judged wrong after the fact, but no one ventures the correct approach beforehand least they agree, God forbid. And in this case, even active Witnesses are expressing the opinion that this video is absurd, as it is. However, once the veracity of this video is established beyond any doubt, it will be interesting to see the mental gymnastics they will apply to rationalize it as “good” and “up building.” Why? Because they will have to. They will need to adjust their initial reaction (which, as we witnessed here, was often correct) to match the one they were instructed to have. But the audit trail provided by their comments will reveal just how disingenuous this is.
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The Atheist Geek says:
June 27, 2012 at 5:00 PM
Guys, thanks for your comments. If anyone wants to post an experience relating to this, or wants to copy and paste a conversation they’ve seen online, please feel free. I would like to keep a record of this to make it hard to deny the real point of Sparlock.
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David Villarreal says:
June 27, 2012 at 9:08 PM
This is just brilliant on soooo many levels! First, friggin Penn Jillette! ‘Nuff said! Second, he’s an atheist and famous. I can just foresee how this could be completely misquoted and twisted around as is customary with the Witnesses to seem like this devout brother gave a good witness to this celebrity and defended the mothership– err.. the Watchtower. Who knows? this might even become material for some interview at a future district convention. You know the ones! Where they sound overly rehearsed and unnatural and sometimes the interviewee literally reads his answers to the interviewers questions right from a script he or she is holding in his hand… Yea, you know the ones. Also, how ironic is it that Penn Jillette is a magician and Sparlock is a “magical toy” which witnesses have a serious problem with? You guys remember the Smurfs and Avatar ban? When I was growing up it was Beauty and the Beast, the Lord of the Rings but Harry Potter, Twilight, even Disney World and Mickey was targeted by some of the more overzealous witnesses because of the movie Fantasia where Mickey plays a wizard. This is just so laughable and makes me even more glad I left that crazy cult.
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One Response to Interview With “Truth Be Told” Creator, Gregorio Smith
Josephine says:
July 4, 2012 at 9:09 PM
Thank you for this interview. I was curious aboot the progress. We have 3 children and that are being shunned by my husbands parents, and siblings. I don’t really care anymore that they shun us…but the kids!?!?! My husband was raised in “the truth” and couldn’t even watch Sparlock. Hopefully more will wake up and leave this terrible organization.
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4 Responses to Anonymous (Hackers) Digging Into Watchtower Society Computers?
Pingback: Anonymous (Hackers) Digging Into Watchtower Society Computers? | emperor dave
Amelia says:
July 21, 2012 at 5:19 PM
They have just announced they have succeded in obtaining the files they were after. I hope they have,
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Robster says:
July 22, 2012 at 12:29 AM
What on earth do thery expect to find in the watchtower computer? It’s probably a battery operated calculator. These people don’t even have a watchtower. Their pile in New York is only eight stories high and that is hardly a “tower”. And their name is a giveaway too. No one has ever witnessed the magic jew or the god thing. Very sus.
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The Atheist Geek says:
July 22, 2012 at 2:01 PM
I believe they are looking for a list of known pedophiles within the organization. Procedure–to my knowledge–is to send records back to headquarters about any known pedophile.
Supposedly, this information–or whatever they have–will be released by tomorrow.
Other sites have reported more on this than I have. Due to the nature of the whole thing, I’m reluctant to post too much until we actually see the outcome. It’s a little hard to sort out fact from bogus claims right now.
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3 Responses to News And Links For Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses: 10 Things You Didn’t Know About Jehovah’s Witnesses
Adam Bourque says:
July 6, 2012 at 8:29 PM
I fixed it! :P
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The Atheist Geek says:
July 6, 2012 at 10:36 PM
No hard feelings! I think you spelled it that way in your email to me as well. Heck, I didn’t even see it myself until I went to link to it.
Anyway, thanks Adam!
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The Atheist Geek says:
August 5, 2012 at 1:45 PM
A comment from Jane Thompson to my article at Michigan Skeptics:
“I didn’t get past the point where he misspelled “Aryan.” I don’t care, I stay away from Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses and pretty much all
Christians. The kindest thing I can say about them is that they are hypocrites”
Since comments are closed over there, I wanted to say this: as I pointed out in the article, that’s not the kind arianism I meant. JWs are not Nazi’s or whatever. Thanks for paying attention.
Guess that’s why Jane didn’t complain about the fact that there are 2 “number 3″ items on the list. :P
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2 Responses to Shunning: No, It Isn’t Just A Matter Of Choice As The Society Claims
Adrienne Sanders says:
August 18, 2012 at 3:30 PM
I am so happy I found your blog! I am also an exJW atheist. Even though my family is xJW as well they all turned to other forms of christianity, for solace I suppose. It must be hard for them. anyways. keep writing!
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The Atheist Geek says:
August 19, 2012 at 10:02 AM
Thanks a lot Adrienne. Lots of XJWs turn to other denominations. If you’re an atheist like I am, it can be hard to find things to talk about with them. Half of our complaints about the WTS can also be applied to many other faiths, so it gets … awkward.
If you’re looking for friends with more in common with you, have you tried JWD, JWR, or XJWSec? JWD is a very large forum with lots of users from all over the map. But JWR, which is smaller, seems to attract more secular-minded exxers. And XJWSec is a secular forum for XJW by definition. Another one is The Broad Road, which has a chat room you could visit. There isn’t usually much there until Friday nights, but you can meet other XJWs that way. The visitors there tend to be more secular, though not always.
I also have a forum that I just started, but nothing much is going on there just yet.
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3 Responses to News And Links For Atheists: Westboro Baptist Church Military Protest Countered By Zombie Demonstrators
ReasonBeing says:
August 14, 2012 at 9:59 AM
Thanks for the blog plug. It is much appreciated.—RB
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The Atheist Geek says:
August 14, 2012 at 10:30 AM
No problem. Looking forward to more from Reason Being. :-)
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ReasonBeing says:
August 17, 2012 at 10:49 AM
Thanks. I haven’t blogged as much as usual this summer, work heats up for me then, but will start getting back to it daily soon.
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2 Responses to Is Christian Evangelism Really As Selfless As Evangelists Would Have Us Believe?
Helen Hail says:
August 5, 2012 at 4:50 PM
Funnily enough, my last run-in with a JW door-knocker nearly ended in him getting thumped on the nose. Not only did he want to discuss my reasons for turning away from God, despite my desperate desire not to enter such a discussion, but he hid behind a much younger gentleman who was rather challenged in the intelligence department, and the more defiant I got, the bigger his grin got. The younger man was becoming rather distressed as the discussion got more heated and I felt very bad about him being subjected to this behaviour – one of the very few reasons I did not hit the JW on the nose (but isn’t that why those people are there?)
In the end, I threatened the JW with the Police if he didn’t get off my property and that finally seemed to do the trick, except he left with a cheery “See you next week” which really made my verrucas ache!
And this behaviour really sums it up for me – the more determined they are to convert you, the less manners they seem to be graced with and so I would agree that the real reason they are desperate to convert is not so much that Jehovah will be pleased if they do, but that Jehovah will be sad that they didn’t. And my opinions don’t come into that equation at all.
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3 Responses to Guess What The Society’s Latest Trainwreck Is All About? (HINT: Apparently Deaf People Shouldn’t Masturbate.)
becky says:
September 26, 2012 at 9:29 PM
Dude! How do I join The First Atheist Church? I’m currently a member of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but I would like to expand my religious experience. I’m also an ex-JayDub turned atheist.
Ooops. After 29 years a JayDub, I accidentally considered the possibility that other ideas might be true, and found myself laughing at the absurdities I was hearing in the congregation.
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The Atheist Geek says:
September 27, 2012 at 12:01 PM
First Church of Atheism: http://firstchurchofatheism.com/
Spiritual Humanism: http://www.spiritualhumanism.org/
I have registered with both these groups. I actually carry a card saying I’m an ordained minister of spiritual humanism.
Compare prices for the packages before you take this step. :-)
There’s also a Duddist church some have joined. My best friend and I actually made up a religion we called Duddism in high school, so that always stuck with me.
It only had 5 Commandments because they were easier to remember than 10.
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CyniQ says:
November 26, 2012 at 11:31 PM
A friend stumbled [hehe] onto your blog and sent me here. Interesting stuff. I was born a JW. 5th generation, actually. I do not currently hold any belief in a deity or anything supernatural. But religious subject matter still fascinates me, particularly JW stuff.
4 Responses to How To Avoid Making Big Mistakes When Coming Out As A Nonbeliever To Jehovah’s Witnesses
Lauren says:
August 25, 2012 at 3:38 PM
This is a great article, you helped me with a lot recently even though I never posted my name. Thanks!
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The Atheist Geek says:
August 27, 2012 at 8:02 PM
Thank you!
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Vanessa says:
September 7, 2012 at 4:15 PM
I am not too afraid of losing my family and friends. I don’t want to but I can survive that. My main problem is my husband. He loves me with all his heart and I could quite possibly ruin his life by coming out. We got married having common values and goals. He has a vision, a dream of what our life can be together and coming out would smash that to pieces. And if we were to split I honestly don’t know if he’d ever recover. He’s a lot older than me (doesn’t look it ;P) so he’s got less of a chance of finding someone else within a reasonable time span, especially since he’s a pretty unique and artsy person that lives in a fairly small town that he’s not willing to leave. I could fade. I could do that if I weren’t married. But there’s no real way to go unnoticed by your spouse. They’ll pick up on it the first month you’re not in service. I know there’s probably no good solution to this but any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Sorry for writing you a book. I haven’t had a soul to talk to about this.
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The Atheist Geek says:
September 8, 2012 at 8:07 AM
Thank you for sharing your story with us Vanessa. It not only expresses the plight many ex-Witnesses face, but reminds us that faders (and other non-Witnesses who pretend they still believe in the Society) have all kinds of reasons for not “coming out.”
BTW, your comment was not a book. You should see most of my responses across the site. Those are books. :)
Vanessa, if you did fade or come out, what is the expected outcome that you’re afraid of? Do you come from a KH of apostate hunters who DF at the drop of a hat, or are you afraid that your husband may be compelled to leave you – even if you fade all quiet-like?
I know of some exxers who lost their spouses either because the spouse refused to remain married to someone who was DFed. I also know of situations where the elders exerted pressure on the believing spouse to leave the ex-Witness and they finally caved in.
Does your husband have any idea that you have doubts? It sounds like he doesn’t share them and he’s unlikely to leave their “truth.”
Thanks for sharing your story.
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4 Responses to News And Links For Atheists And Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses: Candace Conti Awarded $28 Million in Jehovah’s Witness Child Molestation Case
Lauren says:
October 21, 2012 at 5:03 PM
Hello,
I was excited when I read that you are pursuing higher education. If you do not mind answering, have you declared a major? I hope you enjoy your classes. I know that what you are doing is very difficult (work and school) but hopefully it is equally rewarding.
Like most Jehovah’s Witnesses, higher education was not an option for me. I was taught not to focus on education, and believed Armeggedon would come before I graduated high school! During my junior year of high school, the society changed their stance on higher education; saying we could only pursue higher education to further our spiritual goals.
I remember feeling such anxiety about my decision. I feared what would happen if I attended school for reasons other than my spiritual goals. I chose to forego higher education, and pioneer instead. Looking back, this is the decision I regret the most (second only to getting baptized)!
Two years later I realized I did not want to be a Jehovah’s Witness. Since that time I have addressed the regrets I had, starting with enrolling as a full time student. Every time I think of the friends and family I have lost at the hands of the the organization, I am determined to make the most of my choice to leave!
I wish every person who has left could follow their dreams too. I only know one person who has left, and we are very close. When I see how the society has destroyed her life, I become angry. Nothing would make me happier than for her to overcome the obstacles before her. Losing another person to this battle is disheartening- RIP Oompah.
There are times I am consumed by the regrets I have. I feel like I should have accomplished more in life. I feel like I should be able to make friends. During these times, I try to focus on the positive in my life. I think about the people who have been affected far more than I have.
I love reading your articles. I know you are very busy, so thank you for writing them. I view not being a Jehovah’s Witness as an opportunity I should never take for granted. There are so many positive things they are not allowed to partake in. That would be a really nice topic to read about in the future. :-)
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The Atheist Geek says:
October 28, 2012 at 10:13 AM
Thanks for your kind words. I will keep this in mind as a topic for a future article. I’m not able to write much just now–I’m told the program I am studying in the school’s most difficult, so it’s hard to keep up sometimes. But I will have time off around Christmas.
Thanks for reading, too.
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AtheismTV says:
November 6, 2012 at 12:36 PM
Hi,
We’re looking for someone who can write Atheist news bulletins for our TV news show. Interested?
Yours,
AtheismTV
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The Atheist Geek says:
November 6, 2012 at 2:14 PM
Tell me more.
atheistgeeknews@comcast.net
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2 Responses to The Mayans Were Wrong! Why The Hell Am I Still Here???
David says:
December 25, 2012 at 2:46 PM
Unlike Jesus, who did schedule the end of the world for the 1st century.
youtubeDOTcom/watch?v=CbBYLQxC7z0
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Beth K says:
January 18, 2013 at 5:57 AM
They have already figured it out! It had to do with the cumulative effect of thousands of years of leap days! The new date is March 15, 2015. There’s enough time to write and publish new revised editions of all of those end-of-the-world books. On March 16, 2015, they’ll figure out that they left something else out. Rinse and repeat, for as many times as the suckers will buy the books and seminars.
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3 Responses to To Jehovah’s Witnesses: Our Experiences At Our Kingdom Halls Aren’t About You
Milton says:
February 5, 2013 at 12:47 PM
I think that there are a few reasons for the reaction from active JWs to the experiences they read or hear about from ex-JWs and non-actives. Probably the main reason is that they’re approaching it with a very large bias based around the belief that those telling the stories are apostates with an axe to grind, and the belief that they are in “the Truth” and thus have a balanced view of the issue.
Due to that bias, any experience that they have along those lines will be minimized and rationalized, while those they read/hear about “must be an exaggeration.” I would never even have dared to visit a site like this when I was an active JW, or read or pay any mind to such talk. If I had, I am sure that I’d have found a way to make it fit the narrative (“they’re making it up” or “they’re exaggerating” or “they’re magnifying someone’s faults” and so on).
Being deeply involved in a group like the JW is mentally crippling. You are programmed to start from a bad premise (The WTS is God’s organization and cannot be wrong) and are willing to shape your reasoning to conform to it in any way possible. Even after I’d drifted away, even after I came to grips with my lack of belief in God, I still felt that reflexive urge to defend the Society from its critics. It gets its hooks very deep into a person.
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The Atheist Geek says:
February 5, 2013 at 2:26 PM
I think you’ve made good points, Milton. If you search other comments I have received from active JWs on the site, you will see a certain amount of this at play. The phrase “mentally crippling” is, I think, totally applicable. The issue is that they think everyone else is mentally “crippled” (or diseased?). I’m not sure it’s even possible to have a real conversation with a JW under such circumstances.
Some of them even think that’s a good thing.
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Milton says:
February 6, 2013 at 11:39 AM
I think it’s because of the effect of the teaching. You come to believe that you are part of a small and exclusive group that knows the real, 100% pure, no-doubt-about-it truth through some insight that others must lack, since the truth is so simple and clear. People who believe differently are not only mistaken, they can’t even seem to grasp the obvious. This breeds an arrogance that I can recall very clearly now. One of the things I felt most keenly after coming to grips with not being a JW was a sense of utter embarrassment– that I was so smug and arrogant while being so clueless. It is humbling.
I also think that it is one of the more insidious aspects of the inculcation that the WTS performs on its followers. When you’ve built yourself up and are quite impressed with your own superiority, it becomes that much harder to accept that you were just another of those ‘ignorant schmoes’ that you looked down on for so long. Since most of that process is subconscious, it’s very difficult to understand it and fight against it. That subliminal manipulation is both very effective and very, very immoral in my opinion.
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One Response to News And Links for Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses: Warwick OKs Site of New Watchtower Headquarters
The Atheist Geek says:
August 3, 2013 at 8:30 AM
Sure seems like more people are coming forward about pedophile cases among Jehovah’s Witnesses. Almost makes you think it’s a bigger problem than anyone was willing to admit. Of course, that would be wrong.
Except that it isn’t.
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