comments from JW's on www.jehovahswitnessblog.com part 1

SheriO
I agree with Ron. They see these people as dead anyway unless they come to the kingdom hall especially if they leave the organization. They don't realize that it makes them zombies to think this way. If they can profit off of someone's tragedy and control their people all the better. (Now remember folks. Don't go to late movies.) A little girl was fatally wounded that night. Its nobody's fault except for the gunman's. Her blood is on nobody else's hands. How dare they blame these people for even being there. It seems like the man's opinion was as good as fact when it would've been better to say nothing. If a JW had been there, would he be remembered as the one who went to the movie and got himself killed? Geeeeeez!
Dillen
It wasn't any one's fault, that got shot, who went saw the new Batman movie...the guy obviously was sick in the head, for he LOVED what the joker could do to innocent people! I hope those who are injured do recover and those who didn't make it, my heart goes out to their families. :3
I saw it on news myself and the WTS are sick, sick people! They think it was those innocent people's fault just for watching a movie, was something they asked for or expected at that time? JWs don't know what they are talking about and as if the shooter would be staring in at an empty cinema room! Fantasy talk. JWs loaded language is nothing but fantasy talk, so they don't know what is real any more. They make sick to my stomach! How dare they not show any sympathy for these innocent people! If it were me, what do you think my JW sister would be feeling right now, if I was there and survived the shooting by an injury? Would she listen to her JW friends talk her "down" about it as if it was my fault the Joker shot me or she'd have (hidden) sympathy for me? =S :3
Sorry, I'm just angry...but my last question there is an example, IF I were there. :3
Jonathan
The thing about that elder's comments is they seem like words directly from the WT because they fit in so well with the JW mindset, but the WT can deny it as an official stance because it will never appear in a sanctioned publication.
Deranged jdub
That's the same thought I had, however; the WBTS denies what they put in print too. I remember being told that we didn't need to read the older publications, and what about everything printed regarding 1975? As long as you sit at home and read the bible, and preach- your life will be worry free.
Stephen dropp
Typical jw response
Ron Raymond
Not surprised as the rationale is Armageddon is any day now and those victims were dammed to eternal nothingness anyway.
Harold
Last winter l flew to Vancouver from Edmonton to see the Stanley Cup hockey final. My Jehovah Witness mother upon hearing this said "Jehovahs Witnesses don't go to Hockey games as that is a wordly event, and J.W.s are to be no part of the world."
She laid a guilt trip on me saying l was 'cursed by Jehovah, cursed by the Holy Sprit, cursed by the Bible for having done so. Really?
I responded that l was a formally disfellowshiped J.W. and that l don't abide by their heneous priciples or 'rules'. Have'nt for 20 years. I told her l did'nt want anything to do with her or her 'cult'. I feel good for that sane decision.
noh8inmyheart
"Hockey games as that is a wordly event, and J.W.s are to be no part of the world."
That's far more preferable than spending the evening singing Kingdom Songs to a guitar accompaniment and I was forced to do many times when I was in the cult.
Deranged jdub
Total BS... in the States a lot of JDubs are season ticket holders to prof. Sports. Was it the game the Bruins won? GO BOSTON!!! :) AND we used to get game updates on our phone and discuss after meetings if the games were televised during meeting times...
Robert7
I remember the exact same sentiment, but much worse after the Sep 11th attacks. I went to the Kingdom Hall looking for comfort and support, and the only thing they mentioned were the 11 or so brothers killed. Never in that meeting or any future meeting did they mention the other 1000+ people who died. That forever left such an impression on me on how selfish, self-centered and thoughtless Witnesses really can be, and slowly led to my eventual leaving of the faith.
Paula Ann Walker
Sadly, this is no surprise for me, I have heard it so many times before relating to different tragedies, man made and natural. In fact, when my teenage son was attacked late one evening, after taking his girlfriend safely home; neither my parents, or my parents-in-law were sympathetic to his injuries. They all told my husband and I that at 15 years old, he should not have been out late at night. They went on to berate us that if we had remained 'in The Truth' it would not have happened.
That was over 20 years ago now, and I have never, ever regretted walking away.
Thanks for this post, so well written. Terribly sad. I'll share, bec ause this cult need to be exposed.
Chris
of course, because once you are in the cult you are protected from all bad. Yeah. didn't help those who were captured by hitler.
good thing you left. I was raised as one and left when I was 17. I'm 22 now. While i still struggle with making friends (since I had 0 growing up since my focus on on jehovah) at least I don't have to worry about getting up early sunday mornings and going to the meetings to hear BS about this.
Deranged Jdub
Hi! I feel horrible about what happened. It sickens most heartfelt people! Your blog today really irriates me. The control is out of control! I am so sorry for those families! They HAVE TO HAVE our support! Some really good stuff could come from this in the form of folks getting involved in gun control or other "help" support groups.
I am rambling, but so what. I have no affiliation to the link , I just thought it was very interesting info and wanted to share. http://christiananswers.net/q-... ...JDUBS MORE DANGEROUS THAN KKK... WOW! :) Love your site, and it is the only one I really follow.. the rest of the ex-Jdub sites tend to be on the BOO HOO side.. and I want to live my new life w/ no regret or bitterness.. Learned a lot and nope don't want to dwell on it! Thanks for your site!
Steve
Blaming the victims is nothing new for this organization. Remember that you could be disfellowshipped for having been raped.
Oh, but they are such a "loving" group!
Flo
Wow,my mom is a JW and even she would find that sickening! She was totally upset about the shooting,I thought she was going to cry.
Isaac J. Harris
Once again, the Society is clueless about the impression they are making on "the world." The bubble is so dense, they are simply unaware of what jerks they are. Let the gaffe machine continue.
Sakura
I heard about the shooting from my dad while I was sleeping. I was actually prompted to go with my "worldly" friends that night. And i really wanted to but i can't ever do things like that simply because I live at home with my JW parents and I attend the meetings. I never liked these non-biblical rules. And what makes me mad is that my mom said something along the same lines. "well you know there weren't any Jehovah's witnesses there." and I replied There may have not been in Colorado but I know of JWs going to midnight showings and one family who even gets to go on stage took his whole family to see the avengers! she used the excuse that well he's young he doesn't know. No excuse. I wish they would just let people live. And now my mom told me this morning that there's a "mandatory" meeting. All my life I've been told that when they announce that it means something is going to happen. Is Jehovah talking to them? Should I be afraid?... Making the choice sort of seems like accepting your own "death certificate" as one ex jw said.
Chris
mandatory meeting? so if you don't go something would happen?
they've been saying that for years and nothing has happend. they say "no one knows the day or hour" pretening to the end of the world, so how can they know?
If you are of age where you can make your own decesions, just dont go. I left at the age of 17. I'm 22 now. my family relationships are rough but hey, at least I don't suffer anymore. At least not in this case.
Sakura
My mom always said there will come a time when they announce having a mandatory meeting and everyone not there will be left out and not have a clue as to what's going on. its as if there's some secret plan. And you're right. I'm of age (19, I'll be 20 in September) but ahh i learned all this stuff like right after i got baptized and started dating. And i always wonder is it a trick. I don't know if I'm supposed to feel like this but it's just a little confusing.
Steve
Yes, Sakura, it is a trick. Jehovah doesn't talk to them, they just sit around and make this crap up. What they do is neither faithful nor discreet.
Bonnie
This reminds me of the attitude and what I heard growing up as a J Dub at the Kingdom Hall and assemblies when the subject of Armageddon came up and people felt sorry for the children who would die. Time and again, from the stage we were told, "big rats produce little rats." So we should not feel sorry for them.
I was just making the comparison yesterday on my page between Dubs and the Westboro Baptist Church. The JW Cult is much more insidious than the WBC because it does evil under the guise of love, compassion and the lie that this is what Jehovah God wants us to do, and think and feel.
I got out after 40 years. My kids got out a few years later. It's a horrible, sickening, heartless organization that shows no fellow feeling for human suffering.
Sara
While I do not agree with the control aspect, I do have to wonder....I heard there were young kids in the audience. If they were not young, then ignore this, but if they were young, their parents kind of suck.
mark palo
Why am I not surprised? this enforces the title of "Cocoon" that Barbara Anderson used in the title of her book. You're supposed to feel all warm, fuzzy, and safe as long as you suck at the teat of the Watchtower. Of course no JW's were at the midnite screening because they were too fatigued from having to knock on doors all day and attend the meetings. The bOrg should have their own version of the "Dark Knight" and call it Flicker Man. A stupid, er I meant a super hero who flickers in and out of peoples minds with new understandings. His arch enemy is Mighty Truth Man who makes Flicker Man stain his BVD's when exposing him to the light of truth.
Don
Thanks for your insight. I am not a JW. Since you left the organization do you have any spiritual beliefs?
Liz
Nice. Glad I left 34 years ago.
zeb
Not the sort of movie i would have gone to.
But That elders logic says the woman who is raped going to work should have stayed home.
So we are all protected in the Kingdom Halls are we? Ask that young woman from California who just won the court case.















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andy
you can always get a job as a window cleaner.. :facepalm..
johnny
Good one thanks.
Sakura
Great article! My parents extremely discourage me from attending the university I go to. It went so far that they even said once "Higher education takes you away from Jehovah and his organization! Look at what it's doing to you?!" ( I love hanging out with my "worldly" friends and I'm currently date a "non-believer") Now they said this right after the Assembly last month when the GB representative announced that there was trouble in the news (regarding the sexual abuse case). I looked it up and tried to reason that maybe there could be problems and maybe there was a secret policy. and it wasn't her fault. It makes sense that a sinful human would try to cover things up. but they literally bad mouthed me and said "That's apostate thinking! Don't you trust the bible and Jehovah's Organization?" They make it seem like this organization is not capable of making mistakes or being outright wrong.
Harold
It's a 'black &white' world for the J.W's ; with absolutely all the 'knowledge and truth' within the org. and blackness, falsehood and death outside the org. The epitome of cult indoctrination.
I could'nt have said it better.
Lady Libertine
I cannot be the only that burst out laughing when I saw this cover.
Seriously?
I've heard "Don't test God's anointed servants by ignoring the Governing Body's counsel on higher education" three weeks straight in public talk outlines! LOL!
Harold
Good viewpiont Teeny. Thanks.
Harold
Man, you hit it right on the button again. Congradulations for a well written informative article again. 'Food for thought!' I truly hope those holy crusty old men at the Watchtower headquarters have ha the priviledge of having read it also.










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Nico
Just forwarded to my friend who's going through a divorce with her still JW husband! He's already threatening to use some nasty slander. Thank you!

Chad
Know if there is anything like JW Child Custody in Canada?
Danny Haszard
Cults like Jehovah's Witnesses will 'love bomb' the recruit until the 'honeymoon phase' has elapsed.
Jeannie Mills, survivor of the Jonestown Massacre, said, "When you meet the friendliest people you have ever known, who introduce you to the most loving group of people you've ever encountered, and you find the leader to be the most inspired, caring, compassionate and understanding person you've ever met, and then you learn that the cause of the group is something you never dared hope could be accomplished, and all of this sounds too good to be true, it probably is too good to be true!"
Don't be lured into an apocalyptic cult!
--
Danny Haszard been there,born 3rd generation JW
rosemary osborn
Pathetic. That cult has damaged so many over the years. I feel sooo sad for any child born into that religion. They will live a disciplined, regimented joyless childhood(molded into little adults) I am praying for tha cult to finally go down and the world to know the followers were duped. Praise GOD when it happens.
Andrew
No, praise those trying to stop cults, not god who, if he exists, sits by idly.
Nancy J. Sage
I will promote you and your website in my 2nd edition of my book "Going Undercover To Rescue My Daughter, From The Cult Of Jehovah's Witnesses" It will be released for publication in a couple of months.
Thank you for your diligent efforts to stomp out Child abuse.
Nancy J. Sage
Andrew
That'd be great, Nancy! I am really looking forward to reading your book and reviewing it with Teeny.
Teeny
Hi Nancy,
That'll be fantastic! I can't wait to review your book.
Regards,
Jaymes









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Pedro
Drama at the District Convention full of @#@#$@#$@#. Here is what the message the drama tried to convey as "Jehovah's will." or say the WTBS will:
1. Brothers, if you dont get baptized you will not get married as all sisters will avoid you. Drama tried to paint all non-baptized brothers as evil and that you will end up in total misery if you marry one. Drama to portray a wimp, spineless brother as the ideal marriage mate,
2. Drama was heavy handed in goading young, single married couples to pursue the Young Single Married Couple program, where you will live in eternal bliss. What a load of crap.
3. Drama is pressure-packed in getting you to get baptized. Time and time again, they kept reiterating the phrase unbaptized publisher..... Indicates that there are lots and lots publishers not wanting to get baptized.
Funny how I know a number of JWs who's kids have left or committed the sinful deed but then bring their grandkids to the conventions and proudly show them off at that. I know a number of JWs who have married non-JWS but over time have gradually accepted their fate and become a JW. Wonder how these feel when they watch a drama like this.
One thing, WTBS push for more Internet present will result in total failure.
Teeny
Hi Pedro. Cheers for the detailed report on the drama.
I have personally noticed that the problems within the Watchtower Society are normally portrayed in their dramatisations.
So if they were pushing dedication, it means there's a problem.
Such a lovely religion (cult).
Regards,
Jaymes
Dillen
A free-thinker would read, "Crisis of Conscience", at his/her own free will regardless of what the WTS says. Most JWs are caught up in fantasy land and they think anything bad they see or hear in this system is a sign of Armageddon etc. truth is, they don't know anything about us (worldly) people. There is one thing we're always doing to survive -- helping those who are stuck in a horrible, homeless shelter! JWs can think and daydream all they want about us "horrible" (worldly) people, but they can't do anything except run and hide away from the world! Their magazines are purposely giving them bad news from what they hear in the media and also making up their own bad stories to scare them even more! We all know the WTS are guilty people for turning the innocent ones into victims. The Universe hates their guts! ;)
Bonnie
Nobody has pointed out anything in this blog that is incorrect about JWs, not only because everything you have stated is true, but because they are not taught critical thinking skills. They are taught to "immediately reject" anything they view as an attack on their organization as apostasy. They are taught that to actually research and look into the claims of others against their organization would be "dangerous, foolhardy, playing with fire, etc." and result in them being disfellowshipped. Controlling the masses by fear is such a great way to go, don't you think?
I had a JW friend who said she considered herself a "free thinker." I asked her if that was true, had she read "Crisis of Conscience" and what did she think about it. She said she didn't have to read it to know it was wrong. I asked her how she could criticize something as wrong that she hadn't even looked into. She had no answer. Finally, I got her to admit that she hadn't read it because she is NOT ALLOWED TO read it. So much for being a free thinker.
I remember reading "Watching the World" as a kid - I was raised in the cult. Even at an early age, I sensed the negative tone of it all. My biggest revelation, I'm ashamed to say, because I was so thoroughly brainwashed by the cult, came at age 42, when I left, and realized that non-dubs were kinder, more loving and good than any Dubs I ever knew. Age 42!!! If this doesn't show you how good they are at keeping people closed off from reality, I don't know what would.
Keep doing what you're doing. I love this blog and I've shared it with all my friends. It's high time the world realized how deadly and dangerous this horrible cult really is.
Andrew
What a wonderful comment, Bonnie. Thanks so much! All your points are very valid.
Thanks for sharing our site with your friends.
Sally
Hah! We used to call it the "funnies" too! I always used to scratch my head at the news items they chose to comment on. Never usually any hard news, just filler items.











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trusting poet
Moreover, Jesus said that we should not be judging one another. We look at the outward appearance; God looks at the heart. He sees accurately and judges mercifully. He has committed judgment into Jesus’ hands, not ours.—Matthew 7:1-5; 24:21; 25:31.
But this only applies in certain circumstances, because when they feel like it they will be Judge, jury and "executioner".
In my own personal experience I went to the elders of my congregation to ask for help. I told them I had sinned and felt spiritually weak and no longer felt sure of what was right.
Their response was not a loving and kind response, it was not a "let us help you". It was, " As a pioneer you are a pillar of this congregation. Others look to you as an example for their young daughters. you have sinned and we cant tolerate that, you will be disfellowshipped."
I never understood what sense it made to cast someone out who came to them for help? I told them I was having issues, doubts, problems with my spirituality, and instead of helping me they forced me into a situation where I wouldn't be allowed to talk to anyone and anyone who wanted to help me couldn't talk to me...
I just couldn't understand what happened to the mercy and the kindness? Why I was judged so harshly for admitting my own errors?
Sakura
So are you still Disfellowshipped?
I was publically reproved. I admitted my errors because i wanted to do the right thing. To me, it was a mistake. I will never go back to the elders because it made no sense to me that they should judge me and possibly cut me off for reasons i did not want to disclose to them. If God will judge me then so be it. I'm keeping my mouth shut until i find my own "truth"
trusting poet
Yes, I am. I have tried a couple times to go back, but in all honesty the bigger desire for going back was just so that I would have friends again, not so much for the religion. I am still confused about a lot of things, but I am educating myself and learning for the first time to make my own choices. I have been df'd for 10 years, but the organization has still had a hold on my head and my thinking abilities all this time. I have been learning a lot of things recently, and I am not ashamed to admit that I have been shaken to my core! It is a very tough thing to handle when you realize for yourself that everything you were ever taught and believed in is a lie. Now that I have allowed myself to see things I am looking back and thinking on events that took place and I wonder how I could have been so stupid? How could I actually think that the things that took place were normal and ok? I was molested by an elders son from the time i was 6 til about age 9... I had told my mom because she had taught me that someone touching me was wrong. But when I told her, she didnt protect me. Instead that elder and his son came to our home to "talk" about it. And nothing ever happened...
I am sorry for rambling and going off topic... I just have a lot going on in my head and its just begging to come out!
Alf1
Wow! My heart goes out to you dear one. I've heard much about molestation in the JW religion. I have friends who've gotten out of that c**t. My sister is a JW...been one for many, many years. I pray that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will save her so that she will have eternal life. Please email me, if you like. Would like to know more about this false religion. Thanks.
Steve
Sakura & Trusting Poet,
Please follow the link I gave above to the JW Support forum; they have an Apostofest party-board for ex-JW's trying to get together. Or Google "Apostofest" to hopefully find one near you. If nothing else, I think you would both find their forum (or the one Teeny recommends) a source of comfort and support. Also, feel free to contact me (see my website) for a safe off-line exchange of email addresses.
Sakura
Trusting poet:
I'm scared of leaving because I'm afraid of what i might do. I can't even handle the stress im already under! Being DF would top it all off. I wish there were like gatherings for people like you and I and even everyone the contributes to the site. it would be supportive and comforting. I know what you mean about the thinking abilities. I get very depressed when i think about my situation and how i wouldn't stand a chance in Armageddon according to the beliefs. It's all such a shame. I don't have any friends in the organization anyway. I never listened to that bologna about keeping only witness friends. It would've been so much easier if the witnesses actually tried to help keep children and teenagers focused and on the "straight and narrow" by providing us with JW schools or programs. It's like, how do you expect us to fully detach ourselves when "worldly" people are around? Im sorry all this has happened to you. :( and talking about things on your mind always helps. or writing them down. I kept a diary and a journal during my "dark" years. This site helps me though and knowing that someone else out there is in the same situation most likely.
Steve
Trusting Poet,
Please know that you are far from alone in such thoughts! I think just about all of us who have left have thought "How could I have been so stupid!" when we look back. Though your situation as a vulnerable child certainly wasn't due to stupidity on YOUR part. I'm just sorry that I was ever part of an organization that could condone such sickening crimes.
Forums can help, and, given your pseudonym, here's a poetic introduction to one: http://smmcroberts.net/poetry/...
Pinkit Rose
When I left the Watctower organization in 2006 I was told I as leaving Jehovah. That meant to me, they were calling themselves Jehovah. The WT has no power over me, only Jehovah and now that I left them, I have a better chance for Salvation then I did when I was a JW.
Steve
Leaving the org was your salvation!
Steve
So much for being honest and forthright; when the truth is embarrassing they equivocate.
It's similar to how they state that blood transfusions are "a matter of conscience" as if there were no repercussions such as being shunned and threatened with death!
They speak with a forked tongue: saying one thing to the public and another to those whom they've already sucked into the organization.
If JWs are the only ones to be saved, I'll pass on salvation, thank you very much.
Bonnie
That's exactly what they believe, Dillen. After Armageddon, so they say, Satan will be bound and unable to influence we humans on earth for a thousand years. That will give us plenty of time to do the work of the Lord... you know... things like... get rid of all the dead bodies of the non J-Dubs whom Jehovah destroyed right at the get go... oh no, wait... I think the "birds of heaven" will be "picking those bones clean," so I guess we'll be studying our bible and reading the "newly opened scrolls" for a thousand years. Great! More meetings...
Anyway, fast-forward a thousand years and Satan "will be let loose" to give each of us survivors "one final test." I do so hate pop quizzes, don't you? If we don't pass that test, then BAM! Dead again!
If this sounds absolutely ridiculous to you, you are not alone. This is what happens when a cult like Jehovah's Witnesses, picks and chooses scriptures in the Bible to hang their beliefs on, twists them beyond belief, subjects them to the interpretation of a bunch of old farts in New York, then spits them back out to their brainwashed masses as the gospel.
Sincerely,
Glad To Be Out After 40 Years in This Hell
Dillen
When they say those who were born centuries ago that weren't a JW, will have the opportunity of ever-lasting life...but, what if those worldly people who died ages ago don't want to be JWs? Will they die again and be sent off to hell or wherever? That is another question you gotta ask them...what if they don't want to be JWs in their new system? I hear in their new world one scratch or mistake you make will kill you instantly! Ouch.
B_LO
Jehovah does not want any of his children to be destroyed, just as you wouldn't want to destroy any of yours. that is why you will be given a chance to learn about GOD, if you don't already know the truth. Jehovah's Witnesses are most like the Christians of the 1st century. I remember something i did in the 5th grade history class. The teacher told one student something. he then turned to the person sitting behind him and told that student. he turned and told another and so on. by the time the message got back to the teacher it was all a lot different than when it started. That is what has happened to Christianity since Jesus 1st taught his disciples how to be Christians. Over the centuries Christianity has been compromised with the practices of other religions, religions that GOD found detestable, some of which had their start in ancient Babylon (The City of False Religion). To name a few: Christmas = Winter Solstice. Winter Solstice is paganism as well as easter. Easter = Ishtar, the supposed queen of heaven. Union of Church & State (so called Christians vote for a man-made kingdom to solve their problems even after Jesus said his kingdom would crush all man-made governments) is pretty much satanism. Satan was the one who questioned GOD's right to rule mankind saying "man can rule themselves". there are those that know better. those knowing that "man has dominated man to his injury". True Christianity is no part of the world. They do not vote or look for a man-made governments to solve mankind's problems, BECAUSE: Jesus said his Kingdom (or Government) is no part of the world. (you know, the model prayer..."Let your kingdom come..."). what is a Kingdom? according to webster: a land ruled by a King or a Queen. So that would make Christ, King. That means he will be ruling over the land. but who will he rule over? If everyone goes to heaven to rule with Christ, then there would be no one to rule over. that is why the 144,000 are the only ones going to Heaven, to help judge (because they know what it is like to be imperfect beings). There will still be many Jehovah's Witnesses on earth, as well as many other GOD-fearing people. But the Witnesses will be the teachers & those who didn't get proper understanding the 1st time or were just flat out misled, will be able to learn the truth from God's Witnesses. Think of all the great people that are gonna come back to life during the 1000 year reign of Christ. They will be teaching everyone what they know as well. It was intended for mankind to live on earth, in the physical world created separate from the spiritual world. ALL of GOD's purposes will be fulfilled. *****One of his near-future purposes will be fulfilled when The United Nations does away with all the religions that prostitute themselves to the world governments. Since Jehovah's Witnesses have no influence as far as politics & the governments of the world go, they will not be affected the same way that your religion will be. Just don't be mad at them, because The Bible (Revelations) said false religion would fall. so if now you don't believe that Jehovah's Witnesses are GOD's people, then maybe you will when the U.N. reduces your church to memories. Oh & that date is right around the corner. I can't wait to see what the good ole blogg is looking like when that happens. peace and love & it's never too late to go back
davereekie
I have a bruise on my head, in fact i think i have 2...I'm not dead though, just a small point, a tiny point that first prophecy you speak of is the ramblings of a very hot and sweaty desert dweller... B-lo, someone once said the more you dig the more you wont like... you clearly havent dug.
Steve
1. If an almighty being "doesn't want to" do something then it's a safe bet that it won't happen. Think about it.
2. Christianity was not a pure new religion which was later tainted with Paganism. It grew out of Paganism and its belief in the dying and reviving gods of vegetation. THe entire notion of the son of a god (or king) dying for our redemption was taken from the Pagan "mystery religions" by Saul/Paul and then a biography was later built around as people mistook an allegory for literal history. Do some research. I especially recommend Sir James Frazer's The Golden Bough and his Folklore in the Old Testament.
3. An almighty being would not need anyone's "help" to judge, least of all those who had no governmental experience and who chose to be "no part of the world".
4. "Think of all the great people that are gonna come back to life during the 1000 year reign of Christ."
They won't know "the truth" of course; it changes daily. All they'll have is "old light" and would be considered apostates if they taught what they knew. Also, be careful what you wish for: http://smmcroberts.net/blog/?p...
.
4. If it was "intended for mankind to live on earth" why, according to the laws of physics, will the Sun become a Red Giant in 12 billion years and consumes the Earth? Don't you claim that it was your God who created the laws of physics?
5. "...when The United Nations does away with all the religions that prostitute themselves to the world governments" Since this is a prophecy of the Watchtower's then it would be sensible to give it as much credence as the record of their past prophecies warrants: zero.
B_Low
If I make it to paradise, i'm sure I'll see you there.
- B_Low
2012
Steve
B_lo,
At some point I have to give up on trying to reason with you, no matter how much I may feel I need to atone for having spread WT lies in the past. We're just about at the point where we're going to have to agree to disagree as further discussion would be pointless. But I'll have one more go:
1. Adam & Eve would not have lived forever without eating from the Tree of Life. There is no other way to understand Gen. 3:22. That means they were not perfect: they were dying just like the rest of us, and could only live forever by eating the magical fruit. That means the basis for the Ransom Sacrifice is gone, and the entire edifice of the WT religion rests upon it, as you even mentioned in one of your first posts. If you don't get this simple point by now I'm not going to explain it to you again -- ever again.
2. Acquired characteristics are not inherited. There is no chromosome in the DNA for sin. Just because my father sinned that does not make me a sinner in need of "salvation" any more than I can play the steel guitar just because my father learned how before I was born.
3. Jesus DID sin: he lied, he whipped people, he committed vandalism, he called people "fools" (which he himself defined as a sin)...
4. Killing one person for another's crime (or "sin") is blood-thirsty injustice and just plain stupid. But I've already explained this to you. It's hard to imagine why you don't get it until we factor in the brain-washing.
5. "God does what he wants and it will be righteous... because He said so...you have to respect that He knows best." If God does what he wants then he wont "kill his children" as you've already stated.
But, in reality we have no idea what "He said" all we have are writings by anonymous barbaric authors of the Bible who mostly said (very conveniently) that God wanted to kill their enemies. Then they added the folklore of the surrounding nations. But they didn't get it quite right: the original "Adam and Eve" story was told to explain why people die while snakes seemingly live forever (shedding their skins and thus seeming to rejuvenate themselves). The snake was God's messenger sent to tell the first couple to eat from the Tree of Life. But the snake was sly and told them to eat from the Tree of Death instead, while the snake himself ate from the Tree of Life. The corrupted version of this ancient bit of folklore makes no sense, yet now sits at the heart of Christianity.
6. You asked: "who says God has to change the laws of physics"? My answer is: Anyone who says that it's possible to live forever on a paradise Earth.
Of course we don't know everything, but we do know that the Sun has already burned up about half of its supply of hydrogen and that it is burning it up at a rate of 620 million metric tons a second. We've seen what happens to other stars the same size as our Sun, so we know what will happen. As it burns up its fuel (converting hydrogen to helium in the fusion process) it changes: burning ever more brightly (and hotly). So, even though it will be about 12 billion years before the Sun becomes a Red Giant in its death throes and consumes the Earth, it will only be about 800 million years before all multicellular life has vanished from our no-longer habitable planet. We know this as surely as we know that if you turn a glass of water upside-down it will eventually empty out.
7. Yes, "some people believe in solid evidence". But you are not one of them since you insist on supernatural explanations when the solid evidence shows that the universe is expanding (which means there had to have been a Big Bang in the past). Please find out what a scientific theory means before you denigrate it. We don't have to recreate the Big Bang to prove it true. Please learn about the "scientific method" and develop critical thinking skills; I cannot take care of all of your education in these posts.
8. Yes, I can discredit the Bible without being able to create life. In fact, I have done exactly that in my book.
9. Yes, it's possible to create something and then not care about it. But there is no reason to believe that any conscious being created us. It is an old hypothesis that should be discarded since the evidence is all against it.
Thanks for attempting to answer my main question, which I'll now repeat since I think it's gotten lost in the flurry of words:
"But since this [making the Sun burn forever] requires that God is able to change his own laws, why didn't he change the law of 'a perfect life for a perfect life?'"
But your answer is too full of holes for me. It consists of:
(a). "God wanted to show his love for people".
Which I guess he did by abdicating his rulership to Satan, giving them death, a harsh environment in which to scrape a living, painful child-bearing, and by killing his son. All of this instead of just forgiving Adam for his ignorance regarding right and wrong. (Even though the Bible tells us that this same God "winked" at the nation of Israel's ignorance for centuries.)
(b). "God does what he wants, and whatever that may be will be righteous."
So he wanted to kill his own son and most of his "children"? How very "righteous" indeed!
I don't buy the Bible's explanation for any of this; it is full of nonsense and inherent self-contradictions. Worse: it gives a horrendous meaning to the word "love".
I don't believe in gods, sons of gods, virgin births, holy wars, faithful and discreet slaves, "Words of God", talking serpents, or miracles. I deal with reality, and I don't care to hear repeated half-thought-out attempts to justify belief in any of these things once I have taken the time to adequately demolish all such arguments in the simplest language possible.
So please don't respond unless you have something new to say. We've all heard your tired arguments before and most of us have long advanced past such primitive thinking. I do have a life.
B_Low
first let me start by saying that I am interested because I don't usually get to talk to people who share your beliefs. also, i do not believe EVERYTHING Watchtower says, as we are all are human (as far as i know), & make mistakes.
second aside 1st: Adam & Eve were perfect. perfect health; perfect living conditions; everything they needed in life given to them. God never said that they couldn't eat from the tree of life. they just hadn't got around to eating from it. Adam was not created with an expiration date. his life then has little to no purpose. live for a short while & die. what does that accomplish? nothing. sorry. death could only enter the world through the disobeying of that 1 law. Death was a choice. at the time of their transgression, they knew that there creator who loved and cared for them said that they would die. who do you trust, someone who gave you everything, shows you that he loves & care for you, or an animal that isn't supposed to talk, that you just met?
first aside: through one man sin & death entered the world. had Adam not eaten from the tree of knowledge, he could have still produced sinless children, had he been given another woman. perfect Adam sinned yet sinful Adam died. Perfect Jesus never sinned, yet died as if he had sinned. perfect beings don't die, imperfect beings do. that also goes for the second aside. a perfect life redeemed both man & woman because woman also came from man.
the final aside: Adam was perfect & would have had perfect offspring, but when he sinned, it's as if he changed his DNA. therefore his offspring from that point forward would have the same death gene. that is, they would all end up dead. & his offspring would now be born with a sense of good & evil. so now you know good & evil & that at some point you will die whether you do good or evil, just because death is in you. imagine Adam had children before eating of the tree of knowledge. only he & the children he birthed after sinning would have that death sentence. but since Adam damned EVERYONE to the grave, there was a need for the countermeasure. there are a lot of things that we today consider justice, yet if you really think about it, is very barbaric. Jesus didn't have to come if he didn't want to. he loves mankind just as much as God because he is the most like God.
your main point: "i" "think" there is a few reasons why. one possible reason was to show mankind, even the most the most evil men how much He loved them. " This is how much I love you all. Here is my only son that i love even more than you, taking the blame for your inherited sin, tortured to death, basically being the fall guy, so that you can live."
this is not a contradiction at all. 1st off, "can't" & "won't" are 2 completely different things. 2nd which should be 1st, God is God. He does as He wants, and it will be righteous...because He said so. you can question it but you have to respect that He knows best. another thing, who says God has to change the laws of physics. mankind is limited. we don't know everything there is to know about our universe. if we did, we wouldn't still be looking into space for clues. and if we don't know everything there is to know about the universe, then we don't know everything about the physics of the universe. thus meaning that something that we are not familiar with could happen to prevent the sun from turning red giant or from harming us, IF man's theory is even correct in the 1st place.
to my knowledge, lying is the only thing Jehovah can't do.
that is not the entire basis of the Watchtower Religion. i wonder what you say about other denominations of Christianity. it must be a lot worse. or have you just singled out the Watchtower?
scientist are trying to recreate the big bang. they will never do it. since when has non-living matter created living matter? but they will always try as long as God hasn't intervened yet. & since they will always try, it will always be a theory. always be an alternative to the belief in God. some people believe in theories, some people believe in solid evidence. some theories are right. until they can pull off a big bang, it will remain a theory. AND until science can create new life any ANY WAY, other than the obvious natural reproduction, you CANNOT DISCREDIT THE BIBLE. that is until you prove that life can be created without God, supernatural will always be the best explanation.
If the Bible isn't fact, then wouldn't it still be reasonable to say that whatever created us, is at least, as calculating as we humans are. the Creator would have to be at the very least, just as smart as we are. & if He is just as smart as we are, He has the capacity to love, care, hate, whatever. He would have to share at least some of our qualities & be aware of the all of them. how else would we get them. Our creator wanted us to to experience certain things. that means He cares. He cares whether we smell, or love or feel, or else we wouldn't have those qualities. even if He wants us to suffer. that would mean that He cares whether or not we suffer. but He still CARES. is it possible to create & not care about what was created at some point? and if He cares, then He is interested in us. & if He's interested in us, that means He watches us. I'm going in circles. the point is, our Creator whether or not from Bible account, cares if we do or do not enjoy life. therefore cares about us, even if not about our well being
let me just hit submit before I go on forever
Steve
B_Lo,
Having answered your questions, turn-about is fair play: I have some for you (which may, in the end, steer us back to the topic of this blog.)
You explained the Ransom Sacrifice as: "Jesus would come to earth and redeem mankind by a ransom sacrifice, a perfect life for a perfect life".
As an aside: Shouldn't it be "TWO perfect lives for TWO perfect lives"? Or at least "a perfect life for two perfect lives?" Otherwise, where's the ransom sacrifice for women? Or is it just such a paternalistic religion that no one has ever given them a thought?
As a second aside: Adam & Eve were NOT perfect. Having never had a chance to eat from the Tree of Life, they were destined to eventually age and die from the start. You'll remember that the Bible clearly relates God saying how he had to remove Adam & Eve from the Garden "lest they should eat from the tree and live forever". Also, at the time of the transgression they didn't know good from evil. Perfect? Hardly.
The final aside: There's no justice in taking the life of a person who didn't commit the crime. Say you had an imbecile brother who stole a piece of fruit because he didn't know right from wrong. Your brother needed medicine to live, so in punishment for his crime the court took away his medicine so that he died. But after that the court was still not satisfied and cried out for more blood. So they executed YOU for the crime and called it even. Such a court would not be considered a court of justice by anyone but barbarians.
But the main point I want to make, and the question I really want you to answer is this: In order to live forever on Earth you said that the creator of the laws of physics will change the laws of physics. Okay, that's a reasonable answer within the context of your mindset. But since this requires that God is able to change his own laws, why didn't he change the law of "a perfect life for a perfect life?" According to the Bible, God's only-begotten son pleaded with him in the Garden of Gethsemane to spare him if there were any possible way to do so. Why would the son of God make such a request if he knew it was impossible for God to break his own law of "divine justice"? Evidently Jesus really believed God could change his own law, and would do so [since "anything you ask the Father in my name will be granted"] up until the very last when he cried, "My God! My God, why have you forsaken me?" Having read the Hebrew Scriptures Jesus would've been familiar with the many occasions in the past where it was related that God had forgiven sins without the shedding of blood. So why not for him: the most important person who ever lived, and the one with the closest relationship with God?
The Watchtower theology contains this major contradiction which is a fatal flaw. If we are to live forever on Earth then God will have to change his law to keep the Sun from becoming a Red Giant and consuming the Earth. But in order to "save us" from death we have to believe in the Ransom Sacrifice which requires that God cannot change his law.
I anticipate the WT reply: "Evidently God can change the laws of physics (as demonstrated by all of the miracles in the Bible) but cannot change the divine law of justice." To which my reply would be that according to the Bible, God changed the divine law regarding the need for blood to be shed in order to forgive sins in the following instances: Forgiveness via prayer (Num. 14:17-20; Hos. 14:1-4); flour (Lev. 5:11-13); jewelry (Num 31:50); and money (Ex 30:15-16). Not to mention forgiving the Israelites repeatedly "for their father's sake".
Thus endeth the lesson, along with the entire basis of the WT religion.
The Witnesses are the only ones who NEED to be saved -- from the Watchtower. This site is helping to do just that.
Steve
Okay, though this is going pretty far afield from the topic of the OP.
1. "do you believe in an intelligent creator that cares about us?"
No; my life hasn't been a sheltered one. I have seen too much to allow such a conclusion.
For details on why the god of the Bible cannot exist, please see my free online book: http://smmcroberts.net/religio...
1a. "if not, do you think that we are just lifeforms that just appear randomly throughout the universe?"
Yes.
2. "what are your thoughts on the purpose of our short lives?"
There is no ultimate purpose, but it is up to each of us to create our own purpose in our own short lives. To live life to the fullest requires exercising our sense of empathy so that we can share and contribute to the joy of others and help eliminate suffering.
3. "what are your thoughts on good & evil?"
Good pretty much results when people act empathetically. Evil usually results when people act contrary to their sense of empathy. Patriotism, religion, and other forms of group-think are the primary culprits in getting people to act against their sense of empathy. (Think of: shunning family members; refusing to save their life with medical treatment; hating apostates; disfellowshipping rape victims...)
4. "do you believe in/ever seen UFO/extraterrestrials?"
No. I think there's a fair chance that life exists elsewhere than on Earth, but not in our immediate vicinity. For over 12 years now the SETI project has been listening for radio-wave patterns (which we would reasonably expect to be emanating from any advanced civilization) but has only heard a silent universe thus far. Radio waves travel at the speed of light: much faster than any physical object ever could. So the incredible distances to where other advanced life-forms might exist precludes any being living long enough to survive the journey. Also, in order to have reached the Earth by now they might have had to start that journey before the Big Bang (or at least before planets had a chance to form and cool and for life to evolve). Which, of course, would make the notion of aliens from outer space visiting us impossible.
No angels, no gods, no ET's. For all intents and purposes we are on our own, and need to take responsibility for solving our own problems.
Steve
B_Low,
I can't imagine why you'd be interested in my personal beliefs, but if your curiosity is sincere then contact me via my web-site; we don't want to further derail Teeny's blog post. (Click on my name above, then on "Contact Me" at the bottom of my home page.)
Andrew
We don't mind - please do carry on here!
B_Low
few more questions
1. do you believe in an intelligent creator that cares about us?
if not, do you think that we are just lifeforms that just appear randomly throughout the universe?
2. what are your thoughts on the purpose of our short lives?
3. what are your thoughts on good & evil?
4. do you believe in/ever seen UFO/extraterrestrials?
Steve
I have no need of such crutches.
B_Low
so your religion is....?
Steve
B_Low,
No, you obviously still don't get it. If an almighty being doesn't want to do something it's not going to do it, period. You may have to do things you don't want to do, but that's because you're not almighty. And please stop whipping your children; that's child abuse!
I will take pity on you at this point and let you know that you are making a fool of yourself by your posts. This is an apostate site. Everyone here knows everything that you're pitching already, and it only serves to make us roll our eyes and shake our heads in pity for you and in amazement that we could've ever been so removed from reality to have believed what the Watchtower spews out. Except for the lurkers we have all moved far beyond all of that. I was a Bethelite, not a faker. I have written a book about Jehovah's Witnesses, carefully examining all sides of their doctrine and history. I have also written a verse by verse commentary on the Bible proving to any non-brainwashed individual that it cannot possibly be "God's word".
You can't convince anyone that this garbage is true just by saying "no doubt in my mind". That's exactly what Rutherford said about the Ancient Worthies being resurrected in 1925.
Doubt is the beginning of wisdom.
Don't just parrot what the Watchtower tells you: you owe it to yourself to read other opinions before you can make an informed decision. The WT may tell you that "Jesus is all over history outside of the Bible" but the fact is that no historians at the time he supposedly lived wrote one word about him. That's a fact you deserve to know if you're going to dedicate your life to this organization. But it's not a fact you'll ever learn by reading WT literature.
Bible prophecy is a fraud. All of the prophecies were either written after the fact, or were obvious or generic enough to be a safe bet. There are also Bible prophecies that failed. It all amounts to nothing. If you're waiting for the Watchtower prophecies to be fulfilled then you are wasting your life.
You need to open your own eyes; I've pried on them long enough.
B_Low
0. Im skipping 0 for now but i'll be back on that later
1. i don't know what u are talking about "missed the point". i got it. u wrote that in response to me writing "Jehovah does not want any of his children to be destroyed". i don't want to whip my kids, but i do. tell them no enough times & then it's time for action. Jehovah doesn't want to destroy any 1 of us, but He will.
2. Jesus was already around, as he was Gods 1st creation. everything else was created by God, but thru Jesus. when God told the serpent what He told him, it wouldn't be long before Jesus knew what he had to do. Jesus knew what he had to do long before there any other form of worship existed. and it's safe to say that Satan also knew what Jesus was gonna do. way before paganism. no doubt in my mind Satan influenced paganism. Satan's wisdom far exceeds our own also. He can easily trick us because he is smarter than us. no doubt in my mind that this is one of those tricks. I don't need Watchtower quotes. just common sense. u can easily find Jesus in history without the Bible. so that's proof that he existed for those who don't believe. next thing to prove to the non-believer is whether or not his life was like the Bible says it was. i think there is even evidence of him being put to death
3. God can do everything Himself if He wants to. He doesn't "need" anyone to "help" (since you want to be technical) do anything. 144,000 going up. it's the way it is. they will judge. consider it a task that has been given to them
4. well, the disciples know better than we today because they had Master Teacher. the Bible doesn't go into detail about how they will be brought back. just says they will be resurrected. but I'm sure they will all be happy to be alive again or at least shocked. all of those non-believers will now believe in God. & belief in God enables fear of God. God said they will have to know. so they will have to know that He exists & is Almighty, none others like him. even if it's right before He destroys them
4b the "everything exist..." answer was more toward your question do i think God created the laws of physics. everything that exist, planets, people, laws of physics, whatever, was created by someone. i said that because i got u confused with Andrew, who was posting between our post. but i think i answered by saying "at the end of Revelations in The Holy Bible there was a new heaven & a new earth was seen and the holy city of Jerusalem
had no need for the sun or the moon." and do i REALLY have to say "everything, except God". stop being technical. i know that you know that i know God has no beginning. let's take it seriously. God did design the laws of physics. they didn't design themselves. the sun according to the laws of physics will become a red giant, unless The Creator of the laws of physics says different
5. the U.N. has more influence than people think. it operates like a world government even though it isn't. religion has influence on world governments thru politics. Bible prophecy always come true. Watchtower has been wrong about some things, but what denomination of Christianity has given you these prophecies at all. a lot of them still think that Revelations is all literal. and the ones that know better, never give their churchgoers the information. I guess we will just have to wait & see when it comes to the U.N. but what would happen if churches in the U.S. were taxed? that is, if they lost their tax exemption? two things would happen. First, it would be taxable on its taxable income. Second, donors (in our case, those paying tithing, fast offerings, and other offerings that go in the tithing envelope) would no longer be able to deduct their donations in determining their taxable income. how would that change religion? what if this is what the U.N. will influence? religious tax. then what? anyway, the Watchtower hasn't drilled anything in my head. i've probably been in a Kingdom Hall less times than you. i've did a lot of bible reading for myself. when all else fails, Bible prophecy will keep your faith in tact. prophecy fulfillment is the proof. we have to wait for that though. If I knew your relation to the Witnesses, as far as what you know about their prophecy, i could better understand you
also (for the other readers), there are people who are not Witnesses, who claim to be Witnesses. there are also Witnesses who never really understood what they were learning, who then left & said "I used to be a Witness". u know, fakers. they have them in every church. people who pretend to believe just to be apart of that fellowship
Steve
B_lo,
The real question is: what are YOU doing on this site for apostates?
0. Science contradicts the Bible. Please do some research on this rather than trusting the liars who write the Watchtower to do your thinking for you. Here's a starting point: http://smmcroberts.net/blog/?p...
1. You missed the point. If "Jehovah does not want any of his children to be destroyed" and "If an almighty being 'doesn't want to' do something then it's a safe bet that it won't happen" [which you agree is "correct"] then the inescapable conclusion regarding "Jehovah killing his children" is, to quote you: "it isn't happening". This is a simple syllogism: one tool of the skill called "critical thinking": something I acquired after I left the Watchtower religion.
2. Please show me where in the Bible it says that anyone in the Garden of Eden (population 2 if we discount talking serpents) knew "that Jesus would come to earth and redeem mankind by a ransom sacrifice". Or just show me the name "Jesus" anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures. Or even just show me anywhere before Paul's writings where it says that the son of God is going to come to Earth and be sacrificed for our sins "a perfect life for a perfect life". You can't, because it doesn't. And please don't go running to your Watchtower books looking for quotes about "prefiguring"; that will not be sufficient to back up your claim. Instead, read the books I have suggested and become enlightened on how Christianity is a form of paganism gone awry. The Gnostics even said to the early Christians, "Hey look, you guys are mistaking our allegories for literal history!" But I guess they were too "unlettered" to understand what an allegory was. (Lack of critical thinking skills at play once again.)
3. Your reply completely misses the point again and simply lapses into "witnessing". You originally said "the 144,000 are the only ones going to Heaven, to help judge (because they know what it is like to be imperfect beings)". Now you say God and Jesus don't need their help. Which is it?
4a. You say "The people of the past know the truth better than people of the present".
What happened to the doctrine of "the light gets brighter"? If Moses is resurrected the first thing he's going to want to do is sacrifice a goat and murder anyone who lifts up a stick on the Sabbath. David will want to find some Philistines to slaughter, and Joshua some Canaanites. "Bible Students" from the Russell era are going to make a pilgrimage out to the great Pyramid ("the Bible in stone"). Those who died in the Knorr era will want to disfellowship anyone who has had an organ transplant... Do you begin to get the point with these examples?
4b. I told you that the Sun will consume the Earth in 12 billion years when it becomes a Red Giant, putting a damper on your hope of living forever on a paradise Earth.
Your reply was: "Everything that exist was created."
How you can conceive of this as an answer to my question is beyond me. I'll assume you could not find an answer in the Watchtower so fell back to "witnessing."
But in reply to your assertion, let me ask you two questions:
1. Does God exit?
2. Was God created?
If you answer Yes to the first question and No to the second, you'll need to strike your "reply" above.
5. The U.N. has very limited powers in world governments. Look at how the U.S. ignores being condemned by the U.N. for its war mongering. The U.N. has even less influence on religion. The charter of the U.N.'s Declaration of Human Rights states explicitly in Article 18:
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
It is only the Watchtower that makes the U.N. into a boogeyman with no evidence to back up their assertions. Trust me, the U.N. is not about to attack religion. If the Watchtower says that they will do this, then that's all the more reason to believe that it will never happen. Can you say "1925"? How about "the generation that witnessed 1914"? With all due respect: Can you say anything the Watchtower doesn't currently drill into your pitiful head?
B_LO
i AM done. you couldn't disagree with anything that i said except science supports The Bible? which it does. And I don't recall preaching either. i just answered everyone of your questions with reasonable answers. but some people choose to believe that nothing created them. that they have no purpose. that's a sad life. no hope. nothing. just a few years of existence & then forgotten. just wait for the U.N. to handle their business. then you can fear God
Andrew
1. Do not ignore that the JWs were associated with the UN.
2. I have a purpose in life, thanks. I am also very happy.
3. People don't choose what to believe, it is an internal process.
4. I disagreed with the biggest problem in your long comment, to which you only have 'it does' as a reply. I showed two good examples of where the bible and science differ. It's the opening page!
5. You have not provided any reasonable answers. You are making religious assertions with no supporting evidence (which, incidentally, is preaching)
6. I do not believe god exists, therefore I can not fear him.
7. Just because you WANT there to be a bigger purpose to life, that isn't evidence that god exists. Cancer patients really WANT to not have cancer, but that doesn't make it go away.
Thanks for passing by.
B_LO
I'll start by saying, if you don't believe what The Holy Bible
has to say then why even be on this site? sounds like you are
more of a science guy. The Bible & Science actually go hand in
hand. The Bible is supported by science.
I'll just go down the list. you had 5 points
1. you are correct. if it's isn't purposed it isn't happening. I
don't know where that came from but ok
2. such a broad subject. religion. it wouldn't even have the
title "religion" if everyone worshipped the same god, the same
way HE directed them to worship. Jehovah always had witnesses,
before Saul/Paul was even born. Noah, Abraham, etc. they
worshipped God by listening to Him & doing what He told them to
do. religion is a form of worship or as webster dicionary would
put it: the belief in and reverence for a supernatural power
accepted as the creator & governor of the universe. with that
being said, Jehovah's faithful followers were around before
paganism (Able to name one). they just didn't have a name yet.
they really didn't need a name until people started worshipping
false gods, to set them apart from the false worship. the 1st
prophecy recorded was in Genesis 4:15. Satan would bruise
mankind in the heel (sustainable injury), & Jesus will bruise
Satan in the head (fatal injury). right there in the Garden of
Eden Jehovah hinted at the coming Savior, way before paganism
was even a thought. at that point in time, it was already
understood that Jesus would come to earth and redeem mankind by
a ransom sacrifce, a perfect life for a perfect life. therefore,
it cannot be said that Christianity grew from paganism (not 1st
century Christianity). watered down Christianity that share
pagan belief & man-made tradition is not TRUE Christianity. it
shouldn't be called Christianity at all.
3. The Almighty doesn't need "help" to judge mankind. He has
however, crowned His only begotten son, King of the Kingdom of
The Heavens. And since the Kingdom Of The Heaven will rule over
mankind, Jesus will be the judge, along with the sealed 144,000.
The 144,000 do not need worldly government experience, because
the seven-headed wild beast, which is symbolic for the world
governments, is in opposition to The Kingdom Of Heaven (Jesus'
government). Heavenly Government (solving all mankinds problems)
versus Worldy Governments (unable to solve makinds problems).
God & Jesus are billions upon billions of times wiser than the
whole world. whose governing experience world you rather have,
the imperfect worlds' or The Perfect Creators'?
4a. The people of the past know the truth better than people of
the present because they had a Perfect teacher as well as
scripture. If nowadays doctrine seems to change, it's because
Satan has flooded the world with false info & distractions just
as it was foretold. that is why people have struggled to find
the truth. The Truth? the truth about what? the truth about God.
who He is, how He is, what He has done & what He created, etc.
How He wants to be worshipped. The Truth. confirmation that
Jehovah is The Almighty.
4b. Everything that exist was created. you probably weren't
present when your car was made, or your shirt, or television,
but you know it didn't make itself. think of your senses and how
they enable you to enjoy certain aspects of your life. If you
have children, think about how much you love them (your own
creation). The only thing that mankind has done since put on
this earth is build & create. we create because God creates. we
were made in His likeness. we build like they build in the
heavens. at the end of Revelations in The Holy Bible there was a
new heaven & a new earth was seen and the holy city of Jerusalem
had no need for the sun or the moon.
5. it has already been set in motion. Babylon the Great (the
world empire of false religion) has been influencing the world
governments for a very long time and the U.N. sees it as a
problem. the solution: get rid of them. Jehovah's Witnesses are
no part of the world, no part of the government system, so they
will not be affected the same way as false religion. if you
don't research anything else, research religious infuence within
the world governments.
Andrew
You obviously are just here to troll and preach. You say, "if you don’t believe what The Holy Bible has to say then why even be on this site? sounds like you are more of a science guy. The Bible & Science actually go hand in hand. The Bible is supported by science."
Your first question is flawed. What has interest in the Bible got to do with sharing experiences about Jehovah's Witnesses?
The bible and science do not go hand in hand. Evolution and our ape-like ancestors is science. The big bang is science. Genesis says a magic sky daddy created everything in 7 days in the same form they are in today. Stop talking out of your ass.
You're done. Won't be replying unless you bring something valuable to the conversation. You sound like someone who has never actually looked at the arguments against his position.
Steve
Dillen,
As for killing you instantly for making one mistake in the "New Order": This is Jehovah's "loving arrangement" for "keeping the congregation (then the entire world) clean". I recently depicted how this will work in my blog post: A Glimpse of Heaven at http://smmcroberts.net/blog/?p...
Teeny
So let me see if I've got this right: Jehovah will kill 99% of the Earth's population, then bring back about 4 billion people in the resurrection, then kill all those who want to cling onto free will.
Sign me up!













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Brad L. Wilson
you just have to love this crap, there is nothing and I mean nothing that surprises me with the jw world past or present. do hope you had a fabulous holiday.
Cheers - Brad
Lacy
"We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented".-Elie Wiesel
The court of law will prosecute and sentence people who are aware of crimes being committed and who say and do nothing to stop it. If Jehovah is the Almighty Judge, wouldn't his standards be the same or higher? He didn't instruct the Israelites to sit back and do nothing and just let him take care of wrongs. He commanded them to fight wars, help the oppressed, and take initiative. If He is supposed to be unchanging, why do the Governing Body think He changed his standards?
DERANDGED jDUB
Sounds like the pontifications of a drunk... wasn't that his secret sin? Other than a nasty temper, and ... dare I go on?









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Derangedjdub
I don't consider myself "smart", but I do crave understanding the "why's"... I've been doing a fair amount of research and having a lot of "ah ha" moments. I'm not telling anyone what is right or wrong. That's between you and your maker- but I will add - thinking about my next tattoo and I've been joking around about getting the "heathen" fish w/ legs symbol- but there again- I'm not an evolutionist.
Andrew
But evolution is fact. Really, it is. Just as it is fact that Earth orbits the sun. Whatever one believes, it should never ignore or take the place of facts that have supporting evidence. The only reasons people deny evolution is because it gets in the way of their religious beliefs which have no evidence or because they don't understand it properly. See: http://www.jehovahswitnessblog...
Derangedjdub
Thanks Andrew!! I didn't intend to "knock" evolution. I hope that wasn't the impression I gave- truthfully I don't know what to believe. Tattoo's are forever so I tend to really think through my image/symbol choices!
I had been responding to a comment by Sakura, but it didn't seem to stay "in line". :-)
Derangedjdub
I am really glad to have JWB as a resource. It is a journey. There are all the facts, but at the end of the day it boils down to "you". Seems very simple- a no brainer- but after being in the Borg for so long "you"... Ego... ID... are like undiscovered countries. I did feel a little bit like "hey dummy science is the answer"... Lol and having mechanical engineers for a dad and grandfather... Logic -facts- equations- science are part of my foundation. :-) I want the input, I will take what you say- and think on it. Can we have a chat forum set up? Thanks! Daria
Steve
Deranged,
Your description of your journey sounds very much like my own: Once I left the WT religion I dabbled in deism (mostly due to Thomas Paine) and Russellism, and a few other isms before I stumbled upon the writings of Darwin and the scientific method. There's no harm in checking out everything; I was just trying to give you a shortcut. But each of us has to find our own way.
Derangedjdub
I will admit - a enjoy a good debate! :-)
Derangedjdub
Let me put this in perspective. (**ahem .. Mine) on many different levels I'm deprogramming. In all my years in the WBTS it's only been the last 3-4 yrs that I've started questioning. Half that time was spent flip-flopping on the "wait on Jehovah" method... At this time ... I'm a kid in the candy store looking at all the jars and bins full of wonderful candy. I want it all. I will gorge on candy and after- when my stomach hurts, I'll wish I hadn't. My next trip... Probably more selective... Point is... I've had a cult cramming their opinion down my throat and now my knee-jerk reaction is... WHOA TONTO. I hope I'm "maddening" you .. :-D if I were to say- I don't believe in science... That would be pure stupidity- at the same time I do want to understand the "why's" to all the other subjects previously mentioned... Why are people into the occult- why are people into eastern philosophy- in reality asking why is a basic scientific principle, and I intend to find out. Did god acidentally spill his coffee and it dripped into the primordial (right word??) goo setting off the evolutionary process? I do love our volleying. Your serve!
Andrew
Well I can't take your journey for you, nor am I cramming my opinion down your throat. I am simply pointing out the best method that might help you along the way, and also pointing out that some things in life are not a case of choosing whether we believe it or not, but looking at the evidence. There are valid scientific answers as to why people are into the occult, or into certain philosophies.
You make the discussion sound like a competition when it is not. It's just a sharing of opinions.
Steve
"What is truth?"
How about: "aligning one's beliefs to external reality."
So far the scientific method is the best process we have for attaining that goal.
derangedjdub
Andrew, et al
What is truth....
That's were I am at. Yes the earth obits around the sun, Yes I can believe that, Yes I am going to die and that is it.. no more.. but.. what is truth?
Andrew
Why are you leaning towards deism?
People need to learn what good things are to believe something. The only good reason to believe something is evidence. That which we know to be true is that for which we have supporting evidence.
There is no good reason to believe in the supernatural - something for which there is no evidence whatsoever.
I agree with Steve - the Scientific method is by far the best method we have for discovering what is real and true, as it is an inherently honest process that goes where the evidence takes it. Until the scientific method gives us an answer for something, our default position should be 'We don't know... yet," rather than throwing in a supernatural belief.
Derangedjdub
Hi Andrew,
I don't think you're being aggressive. I'm in my research phase, and I really want to educate myself on everything- Deism is what I'm leaning towards- but then I find myself fascinated with the occult, eastern philosophy, Marxism, and science. Right now I am trying to process "God". why have humans no matter what race- have "god" but god doesn't interact with god's believers. Throughout all history... OR... is it just a name that has been given to "the universe" as my Reiki practicing buddy believes. Ultimately I'm all over the map, and enjoying the ride.
Steve
I say, "Bravo!" to your passion, Andrew. We need more people like you who are passionate about the REAL truth!
Andrew
Thank you, Steve. I'd say that trying to get people to accept evolution is one of my primary goals in life. It maddens me that so many people object to something so awe-inspiring and yet so simple, and factual! It's the same as people arguing for a flat Earth - so preposterous that I can't help but get passionate.
Andrew
No problem, Derangedjdub. My point is, though, that we should accept whatever the evidence tells us. The evidence tells us that evolution is true, beyond any doubt. I'm sure you don't struggle with whether you believe the Earth orbits the sun or not. Same with evolution. People far too often mix up SCIENCE with religious belief, as if we can simply choose on our own personal feelings whether what science teaches us is true or not. Some things are true whether we like it or not, and evolution is one of them.
Sorry if I sound aggressive - I'm not; I'm just very passionate about this subject.
Derangedjdub
...the pagan nations surrounding the Jews at the time practiced bloodletting in some regions, and ceromonies. To stand out as different the Jews were instructed to abstain from blood. Some of the Ba'als were worshipped with outrageous orgies and child sacrifice ( convenient way to unload an unwanted pregnancy) - SOME of the worshippers of Ba'al ate the children sacrificed to Ba'al ... Where do you think the word "cannibal" (canni- ba'al) comes from. Tattoos were identification to different religions and whatever "god" the person worshipped - for protection or warning. My rambling point... The bible books were written as warning and instructions... FOR THAT TIME... They totally applied because the reader would understand the application based on current events. It is also why there are so many obscure little edicts. They just don't apply today.
Sakura
Really? So getting a tattoo is ok? not that i want one but is it? You sound very educated. Me gusta (I like)
johnny
Where is it written that the only accepted sexual position is missionary? Whats wrong with the rest?
Im pretty sure that majority of men in the congregation are pervets, men who hide behind the cloth fantasizing about other sisters during meetings then go back home and make LOVE to their wives.
Then their are some who are so sick that they pick on children may be because they were once abused or may be their wives are too tired of SUBMITTING to their horny husbands, then their are wives who think that sex is disgusting and only fit for young couples.
When you belong to an organisation that tells you what to do all the time this is exactly what will happen. Thats why theres so many files hidden in bethel that the society doesnt want us to know.
Maria
Acts: 15:28,29: For the holy spirit an we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, To keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled from fornification. If YOU carefully keep yourselves away from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU. ; This answers the blood thig you mentioned earlier; and I'm almost positive your confusing yourself with the Watchtower study edition of March 15 which says on page 28 section 13 to follow the example set by Paul for sacrificing all of the oppertunities he had in life to continue faithfully doing his volunteering of the service to god he had and the tells us to consider Philips:3:13:" forgetting the things the things behing and stretching foward to things ahead." which Paul himself says, but I don't really think it makes sense that the Watchtower itself says noy to listen to Paul if considers us to use that passage in our daily life to stretch forward and keep focused on what lies ahead. If you could tell me what watchtower says this I could Ask a brother or an elder for a more exact or explanation to if it really says that or why. Sincerely, Maria. :)
DERANGED JDUB
Sara is not a very good Christian. She has been told to absolutely hate what God hates.. and Stay Clean in the eyes of God... Doesn't the WBTS clearly direct the witnesses to stay away from "mentally ill" apostates because a little leaven will spoil your pure worship? Why is Sara interacting with "y'all" on that intimate level "email"... You should tell her elders.. it's your duty to keep Sara's congregation clean, and free from reproach. I hope Sara gets her head on straight and starts practicing what she preaches every Saturday from 9:am - 12:ish.. minus coffee break, and random driving around... xoxo MUAH
Bonnie
My all time favorite example of the Dubs "going beyond what is written" is when it comes to grooming how they are told to dress. My son was told he had to wear a suit coat and tie if he wanted to read at the book study and he was not allowed to grow a beard - even a neatly trimmed one (he looks great in a beard). I was constantly counseled about my cleavage or knees showing. I have big boobs and legs - forgive me - stop looking elders and elders WIVES if you're so offended! My daughter-in-law was counseled for bending over to pick up her books off the floor at the Kingdom Hall causing her slip to show.
Why do they not see how hypocritical they are? I told my Dub sister once that she was the most judgmental person I know. You would have thought I told her she had two heads. She was livid. Why don't they see how critical and judgmental they are of others? They are taught to keep an eye on their own affairs and not others, but that's exactly what they do - watch and nit pick and gossip about others behind their backs. JWs are the biggest bunch of gossipy, judgmental, small-minded twatwaffles on the face of the earth. Jesus loved unconditionally; JWS do NOT. EVERYTHING is conditional.
I got out after 40 years of this hell. So did my kids. We are now "dead" to our Dub families but it was worth it.
davereekie
Nice work boys.... May i direct you to the "advance medical directive"!!!! A large volume of work indicating the many blood derivative's that are deemed acceptable to use in conjunction with bloodless surgery??? Where is all that in the bible? oh yeah and the elders secret book...I could pull this shit out all day long as I'm sure you could.
Steve
Oh, yes: the poor victimized Witnesses. Why don't you leave them alone, Teeny and Andrew? Take a clue from how THEY leave other religions alone. I mean, you'd never hear a Witness criticize someone else's religion, would you? You wouldn't hear them call someone's religion a "harlot" or an "old hag" or a "tool of Satan" or anything like that, would you? Why can't you be as nice as they are?
But, Sara, please help me out and show me in the Bible where it says to only baptize people after they've sworn their allegiance to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. And where, exactly is it written that they were given God's stamp of approval in the year 1919? And how about that Scripture where it says to "turn in your time" each month? I can't seem to find any of these in the Bible, but I'm sure you must be able to.
Actually, if we take "Do not go beyond the things that are written" literally, then the Watchtower should never quote or base their beliefs on the Gospels, since they were all written AFTER Paul's writings!
Derangedjdub
They were written before and after Paul. Most of the books that became bible canon were in circulation in different geographies. The book "Lost Christianities" by Bart D. Ehrman shows just how many Christian beliefs were popular prior to the founders of the Catholic Church deciding which letters and writings would best suit their agenda- aka The Bible.










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johnny
Another example of valueless words is found in the Watchtower.
andy
now im am well out of the claws of WT HQ i cannot believe how stupid and gullible i was during my time under their control. as a person i am very sceptical of all things but somehow i let what i truely think go.. obviously a lot of this is the conditioning you have, especially if like me you was brought up as a JW. i live daily with the disgust of what i was lead to believe was "the truth" when i now find out its far from it! my battle now is to try and get my mum and dad to understand my point of view which is hard when they believe it all so heavily still..
Sally
"However, apostates speak their own wisdom, and their words are valueless, a stumbling block to any who might listen."
Wow, seriously? There's some circular reasoning for you. Apostates' words are valueless because we say they are.
Steve
Let's see now: false prophets claiming to speak in Jehovah's name, whose words prove to be worthless. Now, who could that possibly describe? There's some organization like that, I know, I had it on the tip of my tongue, but I lost it...
I hope no one here thinks this could describe the WT with its long record of highly accurate prophecies and its in-touch-with-reality truths! I know that the plethora of words spewed forth from the Watchtower are not worthless. You can't convince me that they are. When their words said that organ transplants and vaccinations and blood transfusions were against God's law, those words weren't "worthless", they were much worse than worthless: they were deadly.
And how could anyone ever think that the WT could be described as not promoting the peace of the congregation or of tearing down the "brotherhood"? Who is it, after all, that takes care to disfellowship and publicly reprove, and squash any honest dissent or questioning of their word (to the point where everyone is afraid to think for themselves)? Who is it that cares enough to actively interfere with their relaxation and "fun" and apply much-needed pressure to get them out in service? Surely that makes for a happy, peaceful congregation. I know in my own case that I'm never grumpy or irritable when I'm denied relaxation and my nose is held to the grindstone. No, it helps me to get along all the better with everyone! The WT is certainly demonstrating their psychological insights into the human condition yet again in this article.
Catherine
This is why some kill themselves and/or their families because the stress gets to them. No wonder they are such a joyless bunch. I pity them.
Danny Haszard
The big difference between Jehovah's Witnesses and Christians is that the Watchtower Society's central core creed proclaims Jesus second coming in October 1914.
They sometimes try to obscure this today and say that he came *invisibly*.Yes,all other Christains are awaiting Jesus return,the JW say he ALREADY came in 1914.
Watchtower society membership data is compiled by them,there is no way to verify.Interesting that they have recently admitted to losses in almost all industrialized countries.
Reports from TIME Magazine-*An even more extreme example of what might be called *masked churn* is the relatively tiny Jehovah's Witnesses, with a turnover rate of about two-thirds*.
That means that two-thirds of the people who were raised Jehovah's Witnesses no longer are.
Jehovah's Witnesses are the highest loss of any religion.
--
*tell the truth don't be afraid*--Danny Haszard
Catherine
Well said, Danny. I'm one of the 63% who was raised a Witness and left. Hoorah!











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Steve
Why u hate Jehovah? Me Jehovah Witness. Me clean toilets. No need edukashun. Surv Jehovah. And cumming soon!!!
Seriously, I'm fuming over this WT article. Education "wastes your youth"?! It's yet another "discreet" quote for the record books. I'd still be a janitor to this day if I hadn't left the org when I did and pursued an education.Without an education I'd probably still half-believe the organization was "the truth" and still be living in guilt and fear of Armageddon.
So let's see now, what have we learned from this Watchtower article so far? Don't take time to relax or have fun, and don't take time for an education. Spend all of your time disseminating WT propaganda. You'll be exhausted and dumb as a brick, but at least you'll fully experience the "spiritual paradise on Earth" enjoyed by all of Jehovah's people.
Lorreine Geralde
"And finally, “Rather than looking to the advanced educational systems of this world for security, a Christian trusts in Jehovah,” and becomes a window cleaner."
I can't help myself but have to laugh so hard to this. If they say that higher education wastes valuable youth years, why most people with higher education have a better life? :/
JJ
My sister ran away from higher education and got babtized the year this article was released, probably because of this article. Talk about a wasted life.
The Watchtower Bible and Tract society is run by evil manipulators who hide their imperfections to the very people they are controlling.
Harold
O.K. So what happens when these pompous arrogant discerning 'elders' get physically sick or injured? I bet they go running to a doctor. And they don't tell the helping doctor who pursued a 'higher education that it was a total waste of his/her youthful years. (pursuing propaganda). They don't go seeking a window washer or janitor do they?
johnny
The higher your education the more you become a threat to the JW org because the loonies on top are not well educated that is why they are still stuck with 607.
Lacy
Funny how like you never hear anything about how Job celebrated his children's birthdays, you also never hear anything about how Jesus spent his youth learning a trade, getting an education, working, and then didn't take up the ministry until he was 30 years old and had accomplished all that first. He put all that before the ministry not the other way around.
Bonnie
Anyone who has been in the JW Cult long enough knows that different rules apply to elders, elder's wives and their offspring. They are at the top of the JW hierarchy at each Kingdom Hall, followed by Ministerial Servants, their wives and children, followed by Regular Pioneers, etc. until you get down to us peons (my category because I was a woman who worked full time outside the home). Anyone who tells you there is no CLERGY CLASS among JWs is either a liar or has never been with them long enough to figure it out. Our elders used to hold their elder meetings right after the regular meeting ON THE STAGE for all to see. One of the MSs kept kids off the stage. What a bunch of arrogant bastards! But I'm not bitter...
Geowyn
Strange thing was, in my former congregation it was ok for the children of elders to go to college, and in a neighbouring congregation some even went to university.
Bonnie
Yes, a college education is a "waste of youth years," as opposed to, say... marrying at 18 because you're not allowed to have premarital sex or masturbate and you're so deranged by hormones that you marry the wrong person way too young and throw your entire life away by staying with them forever because everyone knows, "Jehovah hates a divorcing," and getting a low paying job and slaving away at it for the rest of your life. But hey, just rely on Jehovah and keep your eye on the prize. What bullsh---!!! Said it before; saying it again - glad to be out after 40 years in this horrible CULT!
Puppy Dawg
I am 55 years old, was a Witness for 30 years, believed everything I was told. Finally got my degree at age 46 after years of struggle. It is not realistic to live life as the Witnesses tell people to do. Not realistic, not scriptural, not necessary. Short and sweet.
Teeny
That's great that you decided to educate yourself later in life. I did too and it's helped me immensely. What did you study?
Sakura
I couldn't help but laugh at everything you said. it's so true!
Sally
I knew a man who started studying with JWs while he was attending MIT. He quit school one month before finishing his studies and got baptized. His was held up as an excellent example of clear thinking.
Danny Haszard
Watchtower leaders say:
" If an elder or a ministerial servant is promoting higher education to others for the material advantages or the status it may bring, he is calling into question his qualifications to serve the congregation because of the effect on his and his fellow appointed brothers’ freeness of speech. (1 Tim. 3:13; Titus 1:9)
The body of elders may therefore determine that the brother no longer qualifies to serve.If a person is serving as a regular pioneer only and the body of elders determines that he no longer qualifies to serve because of decisions he has made with regard to higher education, the person, the congregation, and the branch office should be informed of the deletion in the usual manner."Letter to All Bodies of Elders March 6 2012.ps.
---
Respectfully submitted-Danny Haszard Bangor Maine
andy
i wonder how they deal with someone who is an elder now (and grew up as a JW) spent many years getting university degrees.. or is that something best now to ask lol
Danny Haszard
Jehovah's Witnesses and no college education.
Higher education should be promoted indeed.
Anyone who has been a Jehovah Witness for decades like myself knows that college education was a defiant act which surely would get you sanctioned by the JW church.
Fact today this year 2012 the Watchtower leaders of Jehovahs Witnesses have backed off from their no college mandate but for 100 years they said no college I grew up a JW for 50 years and nobody was allowed college.
Here is a helpful chart:
Educational Rank - Religion - Percentage of members that are college grads:
1. Unitarian Universalist: 49.5%
2. Hindu: 47%
3. Jewish: 46.7% 7.
Agnostic: 36.3%
Catholic: 20%
Lutheran: 18%
Seventh Day Adventist: 17.9%
Baptist: 10.4%
Pentecostal: 6.9%
Jehovah's Witnesses: 4.7%
Derangedjdub
... So... When you're 55 yrs old... Cleaning windows with no retirement plan... Then what? Oh yeah... Keep praying and going out in service- that will fix your quality of life.










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Kathleen Conti
GB: "Well", why don't we just put her in charge!!!
Sally
Good one, Teeny!
Derangedjdub
It's got to be because I'm hung over from celebrating my 40th birthday last night But...
Thanks DH... we know.
Another great spin on the silliness Teeny! Thanks!
Andrew
Happy Birthday, Derangedjdub!
Derangedjdub
THANK YOU!! :). My present to myself...guilt free living!!
Andrew
Yeah, I enjoy that everyday so on my Birthday I got myself some books instead! Ha! ha!
Danny Haszard
Jehovah's Witnesses are in *breach of the preach*.
Jehovah's Witnesses proselytizing is a false Gospel. (Gal. 1:8)
Straight up doctrinal facts on Jehovah Witness.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses teach preach that Jesus had his return aka second coming October 1914,then they spin all sorts of doctrinal embellishments on that date.
They teach only 144,000 go to heaven,on and on and on with made up man made dogmas……They have infighting,crime and child abuse as bad as any church out there.
Jehovah’s Witnesses promotion of their Watchtower sect has the net effect of stumbling and turning people off to the real Gospel.
Jesus said: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte; and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves” (Matt 23:15)
-
Danny Haszard born 3rd generation Jehovah's Witness now a Christian
*Tell the truth don't be afraid*
FMI dannyhaszard(dot)com








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Bear
I don't get it, it was happening in the lords day because kingdoms had already fallen and one in power and one unnamed right?so in the lords day thru to now but now they now it's UN, so what's the point
Lady Libertine
LOL!!
It took me a minute, going " What? I don't see it..." before seeing the glaring " the fulfillments of revelation take place during the Lord's Day".
Oops!
Huh, so what do we make of that? 1914 overhaul, anyone? Hey, it's subtle (something they're usually just not...but possible).
Especially on the wings of a rumor saying that doctrine is about to be shaken up in a major way.
whiskey sweet
just thought you'd like to know, wt edited the wol.jw.org article on you. kudos for taking screenshots.
Andrew
I don't see that they edited it... can you point it out for us?
whiskey sweet
this is really freaky. 15 hours ago, wol.jw.org said this:
6 Shortly after the start of the Lord’s day, the seventh head launched an attack on God’s people—the remaining ones of Christ’s brothers on earth. (Matt. 25:40) Jesus indicated that during his presence, a remnant of the seed would be active on earth. (Matt. 24:45-47; Gal. 3:26-29) The Anglo-American World Power waged war with those holy ones. (Rev. 13:3, 7) During World War I, it oppressed God’s people, banned some of their publications, and threw representatives of the faithful slave class into prison. The seventh head of the wild beast as much as killed the preaching work for a period of time. Jehovah foresaw this dramatic event and revealed it to John. God also told John that the secondary part of the seed would be revived to increased spiritual activity. (Rev. 11:3, 7-11) The history of Jehovah’s modern-day servants confirms that those events took place.
now i'm really freaking out.
whiskey sweet
oops. i see what happened. sorry. i was referencing the SAME article, rather than the previous one. i got confused.











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Vanessa
I don't know, but would like to. As to the Society's definition that the FDS is the renmnat of the 144.000 left on earth at any given time' as a class, I have long felt this makes no sense. The FDS is shown in the scripture to be feeding the domestics. The domestics are viewed by the Watchtower as being the individual members of the 144,000 left on earth, aka the FDS. In effect the FDS and the domestics are the same thing. It is sometimes explained by JWs that the FDS is like the forest, but the domestics are like the individual trees.The FDS then is actually feeding itself. When compared to a teaching that the Watchtower vigorously rejects, the Trinity, there seems to be a double standard at work on the part of the Watchtower. John 1:1 says In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. JWs will very quickly explain that if the Word was with God, the Word can't be God. The language clearly shows two different individuals. By the same logic, if the FDS is feeding the domestics, how can they be the same group of people? The language clearly shows two different entities.To me, this is a glaring example of a double standard in Watchtower logic.
Les
What about other criminal activities (not sexual offences) that the WTBTS may hide, because it is policy to "protect" wrongdoers? The WTBTS has some serious explaining to do to it's adherents and I think a heck of a lot of them are going to abandon the "faith".
Could a registered sex offender still be regarded as an active JW? If so, that would be, in my opinion, a contradiction in terms.
Andrew
Hi Les,
Yes, registered sex offenders can be active members of the Jehovah's Witness religion. The JW policy also says (which I can't find on the new revamped jw.org - surprise surprise!) that members who have sinned a long time ago, like 10 or more years, can even serve as elders. If someone has the link to the child abuse policy, I'd appreciate it.
themike
"if he exists" comment removes you from the ability to have a view at all. because there are two sides, and thats one that says the church has ONLY an interest in the SPIRITUAL FAITH of a man regardless of the land they live in, and the other side is Secular. Should a church have to run to the police when any member is told of an illegal activity, such as in confessionals. IF YOU DONT BELIEVE IN GOD ANYHOW, then you cant ever see ANY view but One. Only a man that 1.believes in god 2.believes in secular law can really have any viewpoint at all. you cant bee STRONG in one view and weak in the other either. As far as I see it, the issue with this one chick is small potatoes. Its ridiculous to think any church should look into all the comments made by its members and see if the police should be called. CHURCH is about REDEMPTION of the SPIRITUAL, not getting once's just punishment by whatever country your in. Thats not their job. On the other hand a "policy to cover child molestation" seems really unlikely.That sounds more like Fox news spin Because there certainly is no "policy to cover over child molestation 101". So what there must be is a behavior that Some spin media controlled person sees as "policy to cover over child molestation". Such as, not being in the business of running to the police on confessional issues.the catholics also dont have a "policy of covering molesters". But they have however saw a problem and LEFT THAT PERSON IN POWER over minors and placed them somewhere else, once it was clear the person did it and not hearsay. Is that what happened here? Based on the behavior of you people on this site? likely not. You people remind me of the KKK sites making up every reason in the book why obama is bad, but NOT cuz he's black! LOL
themtb2007
This is rediculous. Churches dont have to have an "understanding" of child abuse and its effect on people at all, any more than they have to understand the effect of drug use. Churches are about a book, and its god. The bible. So what does the BIBLE say about sex outside the marriage? because thats all that matters to a man in the church. And sexual deviancy is all that matters to God. Life or death.
So again, how can some act that someone did against you in a church equate NON belief in God? or a total disregard for the entire teachings of the church? So wait...lets say you are a muslim, and you believe that Mohammed is a prophet. Then someone steaps from your home. Its a muslim. So Mohammed is no longer a prophet?!?!
Maybe god is as far as the people you put your faith in. Perhaps ms canti was worried about people and not about God. Unlike the churches, Jws have a thing about males being in cars alone with females, And OTHERS see and notice and SAY stuff about it. Like any other group of humans, people will gossip. So even if a church were to Not take action in your eyes, How is it that others wouldnt? because ALL of them are somehow evil and pro pedophilia? such logic is like saying ALL blacks are criminal and accept criminal behavior because it happens in the open in their neighborhoods!
If the church were rresponsible for the actions of others, NO ONE would go to confessionals in the catholics! Do you realize how many illegal acts that people have left to come to church? The church is a place for repentant Sinners, not those who have the impression that they are without sin.
And what is legal in one land is illegal in another. So in Muslim countries, should the JWs report incidents of adultery to the police so the woman can get stoned to death?! LOL
You people are looking very narrow and very american at in issue, when the church is bigger than the country their headquaters is in.
themike
So this person now feels that whever she learned with jw's is now false because she was molested by a member? How can that be? so the jws dont celebrate christmas. So because she was raped, christmas is all good? jws dont attend wars and join armies. So because she was molested, she feels god dont mind joining the army? or drugs and drinking. because she was molested shes all good with that now? Or how about the notion of hanging with people that are talking against God? so because you get molested by a man in the church, you now believe in evolution? LOL So wait, when an atheist molests someone, does that make them Jws? this is like bin ladin doing the bombing in 9-11 and every ran out to bomb any brown people in the middle east! LOL
Jason
Geez, what have you been smoking. You can't even put together a coherrant sentence. Maybe you should stop before you embarrass yourself even further as you wouldn't seem to understand logic if it slapped you in the face.
Andrew
themike, Stop being a fool. You have no idea what Candace believes and your logic is.. well it isn't logic. I think what is more odd is that even after the Jehovah's Witnesses have been conclusively proven to protect and aid child molesters, that you would come to their defence.
themike
and how do YOU know what "candice" believes? when a man become famous or rich, he seems to have a lot of cousins all the sudden
Andrew
I don't know what Candace believes, nor do I claim to.
themtb2007
Courts have also conclusively proven that Blacks shouldnt vote. Then they conclusively proved than they can. Then they conclusively proved that obamacare is unconstitutional, then they say it is not. They said that OJ is innocent, then they say he is guilty. Lastly CHURCH is about GOD. And NOT A ONE of you is bringing that notion into the issue. What does GOD expect in a worldwide church? Can the church do more than speak unto the spiritual Wrongness of an act? HOW is one illegal act worse than another? because it involves what YOUR country determines to be a child was involved? I am talking totally wide when it comes to the issue of sex. YOU people are calling people monsters, based on YOUR PERSONAL governmental laws of "child". Do you even realize that the "courts" change THAT definition as well as they please? do you realize that consent age is 16 in most states? Yet if a person is seen dating a 16 yr old it clearly would be seen as innapropriate? Unless you were in some other country...where such an act is commonplace...THEN all the sudden youre normal! LOL GOD is bigger than the country youre boxing him into... YOURS. CHURCH is bigger than the country youre boxing it into..YOURS. GOD and CHURCH are not concerned with the varied crazy punishments each area chooses to hold week to week. The usa in fact Changes its mind every 4 years as to what is good and what is bad! What is illegal, and what is not...Changes. Let me show you how the laws of varied lands are crazy, and you yourselves are puppets to mass thinking... 16yr old is consent..BUT that couple cant take pics of themselves till 18 or its child porn.The 18 year old can get a job at a stripper club, but she has to be 21 to enter into the club !! Now wait, if youre the band, you can enter at ANY age! LOL the jacksons played at some places they were too young to enter!! Now how does a church deal with all that? this is not about pay unto Caesar ...because that is talking about taxes...even though people use it for everything else. Church cannot allow itself to be pawns to the wishy washy land laws on various things AND THAT INCLUDES SEX. the bible FIRST regarding sex. AND WHAT DOES IT say to do? unrepentant people need to go. THATS IT. so a church's hands are clean. Again, just like in adultery, if the law says its a crime punishable by death, in some country,WHY would a church care? thats on the land itself to worry about that. You know whats funny> psychologists openly have laws that state they dont have to say ANYTHING in many cases!! And that is seen as noble! LOL Wait, I forgot..you guys dont read too long. I wonder can I break this down into a twitter length comment! LOL
themike
How can you say "I'm an atheist, but pray for candice!?" this shows how people will follow like sheep. You talk abotu jws following like sheep, and an atheist comes on here and does the ole' "pray for me" line heard all over the tv media and social networks. political figures as well. And there is also a "rely on jehovah" mocking tone. So if someone is abused by a man of the cloth, does that mean that the person now belongs to the atheists? Why cant a person see that they were assulted by a person in a church and not say to themselves that God is not with ANYONE in that church worldwide? The logic is not sound. i dont care what organization youre with. If you were molested in school, and several teachers covered it up, is SCHOOL bad? or is THAT school bad? if its the policy of the school to cover it up, does that now imply that education is bad?
It seems to me, along with posts like you guys is a buddy buddy mentality with atheism and people like that. i dont get where that ties together with some chick that got molested by some guy at a church? So because people do bad things while in places where they are not, then the WHOLE IDEA is bad? well if thats the case, blacks have every right to shoot every cop they see due to the brutality and cover up of police officers and officials. In fact, white people should all die in the usa due to the cover up of many many things from the 60s. ALL whites as a people are therefore evil from within right? Whatever logic you use to say what I am saying is wrong, could also said to debunk you guys as well and your awkaward act of somehow condemning God along with the people's actions.
Andrew
themike, the pray comment is a joke. Simple.
You are missing the main point. What ties this all together is that the Watchtower society are themselves partly responsible for what happened to Candace by their policies which allow molesters to go unpunished and to re-offend. That's what this whole case is about. That it wasn't just one individual doing something evil but that the Watchtower were also culpable. It is a victory because now maybe some children will be better protected.
Now if God is not responsible for the actions of Jehovah's Witnesses as a whole, (if he exists) and this reproach has been brought on his name, then this would mean that Jehovah's Witnesses are not the true religion.
Gayle
http://apps.alameda.courts.ca....
I can't get in large print to read,,could you let me know update?
Biblexaminer
The TRUTH will be the end of Watchtower.
themtb2007
And what will "the truth" spell for the churches around the world that are not "the watchtower"? seems to me, they have been waltzing around "the lie" for quite some time. Maybe god could care less about them. And God is more worried about this message board! LOL Hes not worried about the middle east murders. he is worried about the jehovahswitnessesblog website! You guys must be really powerful. A connection to god almighty!! WOW that must be a pretting good internet connection! LOL
Kathleen Conti
Jaymes,
Thank you for your update and yes tense is just how we feel waiting for the Judges decision, it could be any minute now with the dead line being tomorrow August 25th. I think this long delay is only going to spell out bad news for the WT, I think it's going to be real ugly for them. Their evil ways have finally caught up with them.
Joe
Hi Candice, Congrats and I feel for you, I'm sorry!
Just a short note, I have witnessed much apathy from Elders and WTBTS on my STD Divorce Case.
I have documents that claim they don't believe in STDs either. They still challenge me on the "EYEWITNESS" part, just like you.
I have 200+ pages of documents to prove my case and help yours.
I can't afford an attorney. But would like to help you win your APPEAL. Please let me know.
BEST WISHES,
Joe
ps, pleaase respond with caps on subject line.
Loren.
A letter to the gb.
I read the transcripts and you- Mr Watchtower are both idiotic and unaware or unmoved by the damage you are promoting.
Candace and her mother-The way that they have suffered in the so called “truth”-the “pure organisation” is both appalling and incredible.
If Kathleen had not of endured all that she did in this organisation, and then consequently her daughter too- well they both would have had a chance at being fine, at avoiding all this horror, this abuse and its repercussions. But you made it this way.
This case highlights - the effects of abuse, sexual abuse with in a family -over generations- whilst showing that a group that claim to be gods truth and pure is in fact a weak cowardly self-serving heartless business. A fraud.
You claim to be a refuge from pain- a place of hope, yet in reality are the very same place/arena-that the pain was created in.
The impure place-Yes the source is the infection -is the watchtower & all fed and nurtured from the same damned infected petri dish.
A self-perpetuating hot house of bacteria where paedophilia was and is nurtured and allowed to multiply.
Shame on you men in suits -with your titles and magazines and writing department.
Shame on you and your insincere back covering sneaky letters and files.
You yes you- who claimed to publish the much needed “good news” and ground breaking insights that the world so desperately need..
Yet there you are- Looking out over cliff tops and commenting and warning of the impending rocks and dangers ahead.
The watchtower symbolises a unique vantage point right? A protective lighthouse.
That’s what you claimed in court. Well you didn’t see this coming did you, some watchmen you are.
You watchtower- who let paedophiles remain baptised and walk amongst you (and your babies) despite claiming to get the unclean thing away from you.
You know what unclean is and that’s why you harbour uncleanliness as you and it are one and the same. Shame on you.
Shame on you for not knowing love for not being evolved grownups, for being weak men of no real heart, men with no integrity other than to listen obey and be blessed.. Just like the kids video says. You are no better than oversized but very dangerous infants.
The wt has made you that way and like obedient traumatized stripped down children you do as asked and obey.
Kathleen Conti
"Wow" Loren, I could not have said it better ....And believe me I say it all the time and every chance I get.
Loren.
Thanks Kathleen. I have read through the court transcripts and I have read much on the stuff on line. This morning I saw the topix page and I saw that some of the posters on there are heartless stones of people, their words shocked me, they have no understanding of child abuse and its consequences. I was so angry, but I guess we should pity them as they are unwell, a sickness of the soul.
Well done Kathleen, you and your daughter are an inspiration x
Steve
I'm so proud of Candace for not just "waiting on Jehovah" to make it right (as if abuse could ever be "made right"). No child should ever have to go through this. The actual damage can never be compensated: the only way it will stop is by punitive damages. I hope they're as large as can be.










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Jackie
Though I'm lost at the way this works , cheers for sharing it nevertheless.
anon
I am not a jw but i know that every thing you was teached by them is a lie.And about their end of the world thing is also a lie they say the world will end in 1914 and then in 1925 then in 1941 then in 1975 and 2000 mayby more times and nothing happen they are just liers tell to the other people who are not in the watchtower if they will met them on the street or in knock the door to ignor them and say you are not interested and say to keep theyr religion and belif,but do not say who send the information.I want the whole world know they teach only lies and heresy.
Sorry to say that but it is the truth Jesus is a God of love and if you love your family,friends and God the true haven who is the one who can not be seen in the sky there you will go when God will take you.I don't want to say something bad about you but this is what I know.
Please do not say who send this information and don't say the mail adress.
youll never know
You know I have nothing against Candace or suing the WT simply because someone who is dear to me has also sued members of this organization at present for the same reason as Candace. I am happy, we are happy that she won because we believe that she deserves to and we understand what she went through more than anybody else here since the person I know also suffered under the power of the abusive members of wt and elders in the congregation. It was unbelievable for her that time and for me too, that elders can be so evil and mean and callous. And like Candace, her situation got worse too because she had developed serious mental illnesses because of the abuse and trauma she went through.
It was a hard situation for someone who sue's a fellow worshipper specially if an ordinary member would sue someone with a position in the congregation or in wt itself. My friend who I am telling you about suffered severely because a lot of people who knew what she did, that she fought for her rights, got mad at her and thought the very same thing any narrow minded JW would think, that she is just being used by satan. Her family also turned their backs on her.
It was shocking how she was treated. But NOT EVERYONE THOUGHT THE SAME THING, OTHERS RESPECTED HER DECISION TOO (at least, good for her). But if there is one thing that I taught from her experience it is to not mock God. I do understand how a lot of you feel, how much you hate the evil people in this society but I hope that you could at least, RESPECT the belief of others by not mocking God's name. Hate the society and the mean and selfish people in it but please NOT GOD.
My friend is currently still fighting for her rights in the court of law and is hoping to have the same faith and support as Candace had. I am sure she will be happy that even though justice is not sure for her, at least someone else in this world got it, at least there is hope. At least we can hope that an action of a person like Candace has taught them a lesson by now.
If we expect God to do miracles and control everything in this world like these court cases, then why not expect him to do miracles too, to save every suffering child or person, to stop global warming, to solve each person's problem.. well because God has a timetable, reasons beyond our human imperfect brains can understand, because he has already told us why in the Bible. so let's refrain from mocking him because he let justice prevail in Candace's case. It explains why, because God does not want child abuse and if someone is wrong, even if its the WT itself, he let's them suffer too. Maybe not in the same ways, maybe not immediately but what matters is that we can see it is not impossible to make anyone responsible for a crime to pay. God has nothing to do with human imperfection, sins and wickedness. God shouldn't be mocked or blamed.
We hope that all abusive members of WT and elders would pay somehow, someday. But blaming God about everything or telling him what to do or when to do it is just wrong. there are also broad minded people inside this religion who can see clearly and understands the fact that these elders are human, imperfect and can be wicked. (though a lot of people like penny is already clouded)
the WT is making God look bad by making him look like a God of cover-ups. Though he is not. As we can see, the sins of the people who wrote the bible were also reported, like Moises, David & Solomon. So it simply means one thing- God is not in favour of cover-ups. It is also a very crooked belief that suing a co member is against God's laws because in many references we can find if we read that suing a co member is not bad. It is not prohibited. So for narrow minded people out there, I simply don't know what to say. They keep on hating the victims who just fought for their rights, without knowing that every member of the congregation has rights to sue.
Andrew
I get your point, but disagree with it. I respect your right to believe what you want (so long as it doesn't hurt others), but I don't need to respect WHAT you believe.
Why is god controlling the court cases? Where was your god when the child molestation was happening in the first place? Before the lives of children were devastated? What possible excuse is there for allowing children to be harmed when you can stop it? No, your god, if he exists, is worthy of mockery and not worship. The bible says god has everything to do with suffering - he invented it as punishment for Adam and Eve and yet we all have to suffer as well even though we had nothing to do with Adam and Eve. It'd be like punishing my child instead of me if I committed a crime. It's nothing short of immoral and vile. god isn't love, he's evil pure and simple - just read the bible and you can see how he condones slavery, permits and orders the murders of innocent men, women and babies, orders rapes, killed every animal on the planet save a boat load, and then to fix it all, murdered his own son (or himself, whatever you believe). That isn't moral. I for one am glad he doesn't exist, and if he did, I'd happily die rather than worship a Hitler-like totalitarian dictator such as him who sits idly by while children are raped. F*&k god and stop making excuses for him.
Brandon Joel Hanes
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society pockets over 1 billion dollars per year in clear profit. This punitive award is not even pocket change. 10,000 cases just like it will not hurt them financially ever.
They will appeal this case to the United States Supreme Court on principle alone. They are image driven. If they can print in their publications "we won on appeal in the Supreme Court" it is all that matters to them. Many corporations must be cognizant of their financial resources and how a court of law impacts those resources. Many times they will take the punishment and stigma to stop the financial bleeding. WBTS is richer than God with American dollars and will use those to any extent to save face. This will only stop when they lose in Supreme Court. That is highly unlikely because the one with the most money wins.
We can all be optomistic but this is the harsh reality.
Ryan Kent
Here's an issue with what you said. And I mean this in no offense to you, just highlighting an inaccuracy.
The Watchtower Society hasn't been the financial giant it's been. They've had to sell off equipment, cut their monthly publication's page number in half, sell off over a billion dollars in real estate, just to afford a new, cheaper headquarters.
They've had to install credit card readers in Kingdom Halls because they aren't getting money the way they used to.
As for the idea they'll win the appeal because the one with the most money always wins, the Conti family won when they were $11.2 million poorer than they are now. So the one with the most money takes a backseat to the one with the better argument.
I do agree with the other part of your statement that the Watchtower is only concerned about how it looks and will look for every angle to exploit for their image. They've been doing it for a century.
Brandon
I would agree that by appearances sake WBTS seams to be displaying sign of financial difficulties but it is all speculation. What of the 1 billion dollar per year income they have generated for so long? Where is that money? What of the billions of dollars they have in real estate? What of the multi billion dollar plans they have and are diligently working towards in building a vast compound in Warwick? I personally think the evidence is compelling that their financial resources are embarassingly vast. Candace has won her case even with punitive damages being reduced. Yet there are still 2 levels of appeals that may be utilized by WBTS. There is no doubt WBTS is culpable for the sexual abuse of children, the issue should be why will they expend any amount of money or energies trying to cover it up....Again it boils down to image and how that image when brought down could cost them members and millions.
nessa
Penny - you really need to look back over yr magazines, I was told when 13 that end was so close, mother begged me not to have children, I am now 59 with 3 kids & 3 grandchildren, so glad I got my head clear & lived a full life. You need to look at material from 1975 & see all the errors, wake up to real truth :)
Frere Toc
I'am so happy for you candace. I am French and I don't speak your language well. But I really wanted to congratulate you for your courage and determination.
This has paid off, this is a great victory for all friends of liberty and truth.
At present you just keep your head high in front of all those who will be hurt once.
You're young, taking full advantage of your freedom. Carpe Diem !
Wholeheartedly with you. Regards, FT
De tout coeur avec toi. Amicalement, FT
johnny
@penny we have nothing against Jehovah, we are just angry at the org that claims to be his witneses here on earth. An org that protects paedophiles cannot be gods org. How many more children have to suffer in silence just so to keep the orgs name clean? JWs are well known for their preaching work and they love to talk about the love and care they have for one another, proof that only they themselves have the truth.
What the public and even majority of JWs themselves dont know is that there are thousands of child abuse cases within the org and most of these cases never reach the authorities. Majority of victims are threatened by elders to keep their mouths shut or else, i know because that is exactly what happened to a friend of mine.
The KH is supposed to be the safest place on earth, when children come to meetings with fear in their hearts that is not love. When you have paedophiles in the congrgation and no one knows about it except for elders that is not love.
The two witness policy is a mistake that needs to be changed. Paedophiles have taken advantage of this 2 witness policy for a long time now and its about time some one puts a stop to it. Thousands of lives have been affected because of it.
If the Watchtower Society really really cared about their fellow members they could have changed the 2 witness policy long time ago, if they do change it now that is good news but do you think it is done out of love ?
Andrew
Speak for yourself! :-D If Jehovah existed, I'd certainly have a problem with such a horrifically cruel being.
Johno
Nice to hear of the outcome,I have just come back from the"Safe guard your heart district convention held in Melbourne,I was not suprised by the talk that said"its not enough to contribute compulsively once but an ongoing contribution by direct debit is needed".
Yes I think the GB is in a spot of finacial trouble to ask that,I hope sis Candace enjoys spending the money,I hope that some of it was my contribution lol
Barbara Anderson
If you are interested in reading the Conti court documents and the Conti trial transcripts, you can find them here:
http://www.watchtowerdocuments...
Lohengren
It'll hardly dent the coffers of the Watchtower, but it's oh so satisfying to see all the negative press directed at them. Hopefully more abused people will come forward.
Aureus
Well, I'm both happy and terrified about this. As much as I am happy that Candace won the case, being a current Jehovah's Witness (because my mother is forcing me into it) my mom will probably take my paycheck when I start working to help the Watch Tower Society. If I try to say "No, thats my money, I'm going to need it for later," she will try to overpower me or threaten to take away my T.V., Phone, or my Computer. So as much as I love to see the Watch Tower Society suffer, I'm pretty sure I'm going to suffer as well, and I don't even believe in their false prophets.
Loren.
Aureus..hang in there and I am so pleased that your mind is free. That’s priceless.
Keep well and stash a little cash away for your future as it will be bright.
:)
Aureus
I'll be able to leave, meet up with my wonderful boyfriend, go to an art college and actually do something good for this world. Instead of spreding lies, hate, and fantasy tales.
Loren.
That sounds like an exciting plan. Focus on that -it will be wonderful.
I went to art college too.
Good luck.
Lohengren
That sounds awful. Hope you get out soon.
Aureus
I'll be 18 in 2 years then I'm leaving home. I don't have to suffer much longer.
Aureus
I'm not working yet, but I will be 16 and be of legal working age on Sept 2nd. I said when I start working, if I even find a job, she will DEMAND I give some of my money to the Watch Tower Soceity. And by some she will probably mean most or all of it. If she tries to then I'll do something about it. I need money to buy Microsoft Office to work on my creative writing.
Mike
You aren't 18 yet? Then she can't kick you out yet. You realize that your mother is stealing from you? You could even press charges against her. Don't let her push you around like that man. She can't do a hit to you. Computers are cheap nowadays if she bought it.
Arno
A "New Age" has dawned :)
A time for Ex-JWS to celebrate the slow but sure demise of a society that has gone ALL WRONG for so LONG!!!
I'm very happy that there is still justice in the USA courts.
Cheer up all! That nasty lil beasty in the bottomless pit is starting to see its butt!
goddidit
Assuming they have that amount of money to pay out, why do they?
Don't they claim to be a religion that puts all their efforts into 'spreading the good word', funded entirely by donations?
I'm really asking, as I don't have a complete understanding of the organisation (or finances).
Would appreciate being enlightened.
And congrats to Candace. Hopefully this will save some other innocent children in the future.
AK
Yes, Goddidit. They have BILLIONS of $$. You want to be enlightened, all repeat my theme for the day...do your research, please. Lots of truth about the JW's. The problem is, the JW's are FORBIDDEN to think for themselves..Whatever the Watchtower, Bible & tracy Society says, they do. They state beware of the big bad whatever, and stay away, and they do. Want to know WHY they are to stay away from things like FB or other sites who have negative things to say about them? Its because they might ACTUALLY find out the TRUTH about the "truth", as JW's nickname their religion.
The internet is exposing this "truth" group, and their leaders try to hide it from them every way possible. and THAT is the Truth!
goddidit
Thanks for your reply AK. I do know quite a bit about the org, having a family member involved and consequently doing a lot of research. I know it wasn't clear from my post. But I'm really curious about the money they have. Hypothetically speaking, if they were perfectly legit in every other way, is there any possible legitimate reason to have so much money? And if not, why can't the drones see the problem? I mean, maybe the org's wealth never occurred to them, but now this is very public, surely some will catch on?
unsignedhype
they do have a lot of money. they don't pass around a collection plate or beg for money from members or non-members either. if you see them do any of those things, then they are not acting in accord with the faith. there is a little box near the exit, where if you WANT TO, you can drop some money into it. if not you will not be asked. also, Watchtower is not tax-exempt like so many religions & churches. yet they continue to grow, reaching the furthest parts of they earth. there will be a kingdom hall in every land allowed. it's not hard to see how they stay open. the answer is just going over your head.
the reason they are worth so much more than your average church is because the average church doesn't have even a second church or a third. it's usually one church, 1 pastor. Watchtower has kingdom halls all around the globe. what people think Christianity is, makes up about 2/3 of the world population. that 2/3 say JW's aren't Christian & JW's say the 2/3 is compromised Christianity or in other words, not Christianity. therefore among those 33,000 denominations that make up the 2/3 or compromised Christianity, this church has their money from their members and that church has that money from it's members but they don't put it together because they are NOT together. that is, because they are not all in agreement. the church only has the offerings from their own members. the Watchtower only has the money from their members, but since their organization or "church" is so big, they have more money
Penny
I am a current Jehovah's Witness living in Sydney. I saw this post on Facebook and if I'm honest, feel a little disgusted with you all.
I am truly and deeply sorry that this young lady was abused, I really am, but to blame Jehovah's organization for this and to then swindle the American legal system, which is clearly the case, is an act against Jehovah. You were all Witnesses once, weren't you? Have you all lost your heads that much? Why not sue the evil fiend that did this. Expose him, not the society.
I was in Brooklyn, New York in 2009 and went on tour. You can see Jehovah's spirit at work. So once again, I need to ask why there's all this hatred against the society? Do you remember what it was like before you became witnesses? Maybe some of you were drug addicts, or even homosexuals. The society changed you. Please remember that and the good times. Do you remember the fine fellowship that was bestowed on you? My sister was disfellowshipped and until she returns to Jehovah will remain out in the cold. She's lost her friends and her family like you, thinks she knows better. You can run and try to hide from Jehovah, but never can you really feel liberated. Not after you've known all the wonderful things our God has done for you.
We're constantly warned against apostates and I can honestly see why. To be honest, I feel the most sorry for the author of this website. He/she seems to be extremely clever and bright and is a good author, but your wires are twisted. How old are you? Where are you from? Were you born as a witness or convert later. Also, what is your real name? Why do you hide behind the name "Teeny"? Do you feel guilty with your actions and so need to hide your identity? The end is so close now. Just take a look at this world. It's dying. Do you, Teeny really think Jehovah will allow it to die? Wise up and get real please. Your life and all your lives are at stake. Jesus died for us. Don't throw that away, please.
Again, I am truly sorry for anyone that has suffered abuse, but you can't blame the society for the mistakes of an individual. That's just not right. I do hope that the young lady can donate her proceeds to a charity or even find it in her heart to not accept the societies money. The money that they'll give you is from our hard earned donations. Please think about what you're doing. Both my husband and I are pioneers and have been for 21 years. You all know what that means. We have dedicated our lives to Jehovah. We could have gone onto higher education and earned a great deal if we wanted careers in this dying system, yet we chose Jehovah's way. In that time, we have helped many come to the light and I hope this comment of mine can restart your hearts.
Marc
Penny,
I've never been a JW but I talk to them a lot. Half of them, eventually, tell me how pure WTS is and blah, blah, blah. (you know what you've been instructed to say)
I'm also from Sydney and, just in case you've forgot, there was a massive investigation (and media coverage) into EXACTLY the same scenario in Wollongong (a city 100 kms south of Sydney). Many young people had been molested by a known paedophile and the WTS covered it up and even "allowed" the animal to do it again.
What I thought was the "funny" thing about all of this was that one of the victims became an Anglican minister who runs a church right next to the JW Australian headquarters.
Anyway, the more things change...
tim
Penny? Do us all a favor and follow the example of Jesus and go die for us.
Ryan Kent
I like my unique opportunity on here that I have never been a Witness. I'm engaged to a woman whose brothers and sister have fallen for the line of crap reasoning only the Watchtower Society offers.
First, if your little Mickey Mouse tour showed you Jehovah's Spirit at work, then your God is working overtime for the mormons. They've got ten million more believers than the WTS and spend less money and time to make converts than any Congregation of JWs. So maybe you should become a mormon if you want to go where your God is working.
Second, you're going simply by Penny in an effort to hide the fact that you're on a website the Governing Body didn't pre-approve for you. You're a coward who's so committed to Jehovah, you'll violate what you believe are his commands by coming on here. Then you try to discredit Teeny as shady because Teeny isn't her real name. Only Apostates speak out of both sides of their mouth. Just like you.
Third, but most important, Conti was raped by Kendrick as a child, but that wasn't what the trial was about. The Watchtower Society was put on trial to determine if they a)knew about the rape, b)knew prior to the rape that Kendrick was a pedophile, and c)enlisted a known pedophile to go out on service with a child alone.
The Watchtower Society, THROUGH TESTIMONY OF THEIR OWN ELDERS, knew all three things. They knowingly gave a dangerous pedophile access to a member of their congregation. By law, when performing any duties for a church, church leadership is responsible for the protection and well being of it's people.
They had their chance to do right. They let a pedophile rape a little girl repeatedly and when that girl reported him to the elders (as you're told to do), instead of being human beings and reporting this to authorities, the Elders followed Watchtower policy. Obviously, a pedophile isn't keeping two extra people around to witness his vile actions. Obviously, if he knows he can get away with screwing a 9 year old just by denying it, he'll deny it.
So as per Watchtower policy, a child gets told "we know you were raped but there is nothing we can do. You didn't bring any friends to watch you get raped and hey, the guy says it didn't happen. So don't go saying he did this or it's spiritual slander and we'll boot you from the church so you can't talk to friends or family under pain of them getting booted too. Oh! And we won't say specifically to not go to the cops, but if you make this accusation to anyone at all after this meeting, you'll be punished. But you have the right to choose, after all."
You Penny, are sick and immoral for defending people that protect pedophiles. You Penny only need to have the worst things happen to you for defending those who would hurt children.
And for good measure, the Watchtower Society could spin gold and raise the dead. It doesn't change the fact that they protect pedophiles and threaten the victims. Save a hundred lives, you're a hero. If you suck one d**k, you're a c**ks**ker. Guess which one the Organization is.
Zac
How is it that anyone can blindly separate the Watchtower from culpability in the cases of sexual abuse that have gone through civil courts. If so called "pioneers" would simply do the same amount of research and study into the issue as they do preparing their evangelical dogma they would swiftly see how mislead they are. Its never to late to wake up Penny. Your conscience can only bare the burden so long of drawing individuals into a godless man serving cult. Shame on you.
Jake
How sad it is when rank and file lifelong pioneers are so troubled by their own cognitive dissonance that they must reach out to a community that has unveiled them on so many levels. It is a clear indication that they are seeking some sort of conscience allay by defending their god and man led organization only to validate the years they have wasted misleading their own hearts and so many others.
Gob
You need to inform yourself before speaking in this manner. It sounds like you need to read the court case findings and exactly why the organization is culpable before jumping to conclusions.
Brandon J Hanes
Penny please study deeply the following links and delve paste the permafrost of the brain that holds you captive.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki...
Catherine
Well said, Brandon!
Jake
These links describe too a tee exactly what each and every current Jehovah's Witness suffers from. Penny's diatribe only illustrates this too well. And as was mentioned is very much a cammed response that rank and file JWs resort too when their own cognitive dissonance begins to wreak havoc on their psyche. You can lead a horse to water but we can not make them drink.
Catherine Metcalfe
Penny, I hold people like you personally responsible for perpetuating the institution that allowed my daughter to be raped by my Jehovah's Witness ex husband and get away with it for so long. That's right, I am holding YOU responsible for being to arrogant and cowardly to see the JW organisation for what it really is.
Geowyn
We can blame the society for not doing something about this. Children are being abused in many congregations and nothing is being done.
Derangedjdub
I hope you aren't the reason the holy spirit is being blocked in your congregation. Please pray for Jehovahs forgiveness- the branch directs you through the watchtower to NOT interact with "apostates". Why can't you follow your own rules??
Jason
Penny you are nothing short of a delusional sheep parroting what some old men in the USA tell you to think. Yes, you can blame the society for what an individual did when it is the society that created the rules which enabled a known sex offender remain unknown to the parents in the congregation.
I don't see why you should be proud of the fact that you have wasted your life by serving a mythical god whose english name was invented by a catholic priest. Educate yourself about the cult you belong to before you throw stones.
Loren.
Wow. You exemplify in the long toxic distorted so called moral post that this organisation either attracts very cold inhuman humans or maybe it made you that way. You sound like a poisoned parrot. Do you realize that you sound identical to any jw publication or are you all cloned at the meetings? What you may not realise that your words betray you; they serve as a fantastic example of why not to be a witness. Hollow empty words and heart. Your attitude is disturbing. Yuck!
But hey thanks for posting. You have scary outlook.
Quentin
Do not waiste time trying to explaion to the world what they do not wan to spend time in learning to understd . the old saying walk a mile i a persons shoes before casting a descision. we are not judges but carriers of the word. Jehovah is in full control of his Organistion. yes MEN and WOMEN will make mistakes and have to owe up for them as they and we are all human and make mistakes. now we must exercise the next commandment Christ sent for us all and tha is to Forgive and move on in life.
Ryan Kent
Crazy how when other religions make mistakes, you JWs call them false religion, but when you JWs screw up, its cuz people are flawed.
Fact is this: the Organization by law must protect its members. The courts don't care if a make believe God forgave a dangerous pedophile. The law says they aren't allowed near children.
Because of Watchtower policy, the Elders let a man they knew to be a pedophile go out on service alone with a 9 year old girl.
The girl told them she was molested by this pedophile they paired her up with and they said because she didn't have two witnesses (only one other victim at the time), the sick pervert was to be viewed as innocent. And let's face it, Watchtower policy says that if she continues to accuse a man the Elders deemed innocent, it's spiritual slander and she'd be disfellowshipped.
So when this horrible monster molested ANOTHER girl in the congregation, the Watchtower Society was responsible. That's not twisting the legal system, it's how the law works. Those responsible for crimes are found guilty of those crimes.
Now here's the thing: You claim Jehovah is in control of the Society. So you acknowledge he is protecting pedophiles, people who support and protect pedophiles like yourself, BUT he's letting children be hurt.
Some JWs have common sense, but sick perverted losers like yourself that defend an organization loaded with murderers and child molestors, you need to be branded so we can see your sickness from miles away.
Andrew
That is so true Ryan. If the Catholic Church had lost this case, JW's would be all over it as a sign that Catholics aren't the true religion!
AK
See, the problem I have here, is that the Governing Body is supposed to be appointed by God, right? So please explain to me why a loving and caring God would put it into the minds and hearts of these men to come up with a "rule" which states a victim has to have 2 eye-witnesses to the molestation or rape. This "brother" Kendrix raped his own daughter and the brothers knew it. Then he raped Candace over a period of three years. The fam went to the brothers, and the brothers are INSTRUCTED TO CALL LEGAL FIRST & ENCOURAGE THE FAMILY NOT TO CALL POLICE so as to not bring reproach on Jehovah. Um, don't you see anything wrong with that? If not, you are a fool and you too, have your head in the sand. I weep for the innocent children who have to suffer because the GB is too stubborn to change their rule to spare such heartache and horror for 1000's of children. That's right...do your research..1000's upon thousands, in fact. Don't beleive me? DO YOUR RESEARCH!
Andrew
Oh for heavens sake - the whole point of this court case is that the WATCHTOWER as an organization were found culpable. It wasn't just the individual person acting alone. It was the Watchtower policies that allowed this to happen, and they tried to cover it up! If Jehovah is in full control of his organization, then he must think child molestation is fine.
AK
Penny, to be honest with YOU I am a disgusted that you are agreeable to the 2 eye-witness rule. Have you actually READ any of the court transcript? The only ones trying to "swindle" here is the WTBTS. Even their lawyers couldn't refute the exposed cover ups. Get your head out of the sand and do your research; otherwise, you really look like an idiot, talking of things you know NOTHING about, quite obviously. And I will add: As a woman who, in essence, sides with the WTBTS, I am APPALLED you would do this. Just remember: Jehovah cleaned his house back in the day and he certainly can do it again. Who side will YOU be on? God's or the Org? Think, before you answer. I'm sure you'd be singing a different tune if Candace was your daughter, too. Shame on you.
Andrew
Penny thanks for commenting. Unfortunately, your response is expected. Please realise that the Watchtower Society as an organization implemented policies that directly led to children being molested, led to the cover-up and protection of child molesters and also meant that the acts were not reported to the police properly. This has been proven. Do you honestly think that Jehovah's Witnesses are flawless and that everything 'apostates' say are lies? Seriously, grow up and try actually getting the point here.
Brandon J Hanes
You know it's ironic, I have personal letters from Elders, Presiding Overseers, and Circuit Overseers stating almost word for word what you wrote in their efforts to "restart" me.
All of them are out of your precious "truth" now.
Keep pioneering in blind faith and tell yourself what you need to hear.









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peter
Andrew@ Pre-history, prehistoric. Shouldn't confuse your orthological way of seeing.
"Prehistory can refer to the period of human existence before the availability of those written records with which recorded history begins." Wiki. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...
P
Andrew
Thanks for clarifying for me, Peter.
Tom
Guys, the future is in our hands.
Let's all do what we can and expose the JWs lies across the Internet through eye-opening blog comments. Not just in anti-JW blogs like this one, but all over the net. Let's sow the weed seeds so thick, the damed JWs can't see where they're walking. After the organization's recent humiliations (Sparlock, Candace Conti, selling their Brooklyn property at bargain prices, etc...) this is the perfect time to strike! We can do it!
May the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society rot from the inside!
Lacy
This is absurd. I cannot believe you wrote this article and expect people to believe it! I have read every piece this blog has ever published and normally agree. But today you go too far. You really expect me to believe that Spiderman isn't real??? There are books detailing his escapades. And I have personally seen not one, but three video accounts that show proof of his existence. Ha! Spiders exist, people get bitten, radioactive things exist, and humans exist. Stands to reason that it is entirely probable he exists. I have faith. Plus, I've seen some pretty massive spider webs that I have a hard time believing a mere tiny bug could make. But as for the rest of the article, you are once again spot on. Just next time, try to be more sensitive to those of us who still believe in Spidey. Geez, next you'll be saying the Loch Ness Monster and Big Foot are fictitious.
Andrew
haha Lacy thanks for that. Made me laugh!
June Percy
I hope we can have discussion here not veiled sarcasm. I'm too old and weary for childishness.
JimmyCMulligan
@ June Percy: Veiled sarcasm? I only saw sarcasm in full view.
Andrew
June, I am very happy to have a proper discussion with you, without sarcasm. Far too many believers come here just to rant and rave, and too few actually want to talk about the subject. As long as you're actually open to hear my points and you aren't just here to preach, that's great.
You say that most things pre-history can not be proven. I don't understand what is 'pre-history'. Things happened before the past existed? Can you explain? And actually, we have a lot of evidence about things that happened in the past.
The bigger issue here though is that evidence is the best thing we have to learn whether something is true or not. Faith means you can believe anything, even without evidence, as you indicate. But that isn't at all testament to it's truth. Let's say we were having this discussion about another holy book like the Bhagavad Gita and a Hindu told you "You can't use science to prove the book is holy, you need faith." Would that have any impact whatsoever on whether you accept it? Would you agree with them? I highly doubt it.
Believing in something without evidence is not a virtue. It opens you up to believe anything. And believing in something despite evidence to the contrary is even worse.
Suzii Drums
The issue with the timing of the characters recorded in the Ebla Tablets is that it invalidates the times of events that are recorded and validated in related history. And geneaologies related to Abraham would have 500 +/- year discrepancies.
June Percy
I don't see a problem, you can't prove Abraham existed true. Can you prove any of your ancestors existed pre census, photography, birth or death or marriage certificates etc etc.?? How do you know? Something's are from oral tradition pre these things you can't prove anyone existed. Therefore I see no issue, you either take it as fact or not.
Andrew
June, if it's up to us whether we take it as fact or not then it isn't proper evidence of prophecy and can't be used to prove the bible is from god. Facts are things that can not be properly disputed, not things that we can can choose from two or more options.
June percy
Andrew,
I aggree that you can't prove scientifically that the bible or it's prophecies are from god. But how do you measure faith? It's a matter of faith not fact as most things pre history cannot be proven.
Number6
...like the theory of evolution?
June percy
Andrew
My point is you cannot always get proof from (archeology) etc. however you have to take oral and written history into account. Ask a Jew if Abraham existed. Ask a Muslim. He is not just a figure from the bible or a Christian figure. There is more than one cultural source. As I said you can't physically, prove that your own or mine exist does that mean they didn't??
Number6
No, June, it's the same "cultural source" for all three religions...
andy
we all know history is littered with "facts" that are edited to make them fact. if i write on FB that i am god in the future some idiot might believe it as "fact" without any evidence to back it up except its written on FB.. genius!!
Danny Haszard
The Watchtower Jehovahs Witnesses hierarchy is structured like a corporation.The lawyers have run the show since ca 1990.
Their *spiritual credentials* are also illegitimate the governing body claim to have become *spirit annointed* in 1919,based on the 3 1/2 year post 1914 and the dating for this is falsified on William Millers end times apocalyptic algorithm.--Danny Haszard FMI http://www.dannyhaszard.com
Suzi Drums
The Ebla Tablets contain the names referenced in the Awake article. That's the up-side for them. The down-side is that they are dated between 2500-2250 BCE -- hundreds of years before the approximate time of Abraham using timelines available anywhere on the web -- not just JWs.
There are many links with information on this, if you just search on "Ebla Tablets." For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E...











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Anon
That's hilarious, as a kid from Australia I always noticed the similarity and didn't quite understand why it was ok to sing that song at the meeting but not at school assemblies haha. There's another song that sounds like 'A Whole New World' from Aladdin.
DNCall
We Thank You Jehovah was composed by Henry Russell, who introduced my family to the Witness religion. He used "My Country T'is Of Thee" to launch his melody.
katbird_27
the we thank you jehovah song is close to a hymm isung at my church but i can't quite place it.
DNCall
Don: Jim Candido did conduct the Watchtower orchestra at times but did no arranging of the music. I'm quite sure that the arrangement to which you refer was actually arranged by me. Yes, I had Copeland's fanfare in mind, and you are correct that it was nearly note-for-note. The Kingdom Melodies series of recordings were premiered at the District Conventions and released later as CDs. The reason for the announcement you heard was to get people to listen to the music, since most just ignored it. You, on the other hand, listened carefully enough to register the impression you did. I'm guessing your careful listening and analytical mind played a part in getting out. I would venture to say that all of us who have left would have preferred never to have been involved in the first place.
All best, FK
Dangermouse
I love the arrogance that anyone well dressed is assumed to be a loony cultist.
If you tried that here in Aus you would make lots of friends, we love our anthem!
don
in 1986 i attended my first large assembly: the "divine peace" district convention at yankee stadium. there i remember being asked over the public address system to "please be seated and enjoy a musical presentation "that was composed for this assembly!"
well my immediate thought was that the announcer had probably employed a liberal definition of "composed"; the recording, which i later found out was "kingdom melodies 7", arranged and conducted by jim candido (bassist with the new york philharmonic), was probably PREPARED in some way for the convention in some sense..
then the music started. the opening series of trumpet calls were quite familiar to me. they were lifted directly from aaron copeland's "fanfare for the common man" - nearly note-for-note!! no exaggeration, and i'm not mistaken. at the time i was a trumpet player studying composition at the aaron copeland school of music.
to think that i had such a great warning sign about the journalistic dishonesty i would begin to encounter in my studies. i really must have wanted to join a group. sigh.
andy
brilliant, there is other songs that sound like normal mainstream songs as well











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Pinkit Rose
Jeus is the Life,Truth and the Only Way to the Father. It's not an Organization or a Church is going to save you, It's Jesus. So if you don't know where to go, go to Jesus. The evidence is in the Bible. I'm sure you can find them
Pinkit
Andrew
BeetleJeus... BeetleJeus... BeetleJeus...
Nope. He didn't show up.
Nico
The "Witness of 2" ruling for molestation or anything really is accurate. I've run into it 3 times. Twice as a child & once (attempted) as an adult. I don't remember the younger ones being investigated at all but I was 3 & under. They tried to blame me for the attempt & even let him keep having studies at his house. I don't even want to go into how many times mom's JW husband cheated on her! The poor widow lady that used to clean our house, & partake, he was continually after her until she could take it no more. She quit & several months later drove herself in front of a semi. In our car. It was ruled an accident but the Elders had to know better.
My mother's still brain washed. Please pray for her! Or think positive energy-thoughts whatever you do. She's a little crazy anyway & it just compounds it believing she's a 2nd class citizen with the end of the world ever-looming... They must be amping up the end of the world shtick again btw because she's been over after meetings all jittery twice now.
Bonnie
and yet... they SWEAR they do NOT use mind control... so sorry for all that loss, Nico. I don't pray anymore but I hope the best for your Mother. Maybe one day she will realize what a dangerous and divisive cult the WT Society truly is.
Mike
I was a JW for almost 50 yrs!I tolerated some of the politics because my whole family is JWs.The straw that broke the camels back was my nephew being molested and the scumbags trying to hush the crime by threatening DF for causing divisions!They said they had a new policy but its a lie!My molester finally got DFafter decades of molesting boys.My in laws are elders and are practicing alcoholics and liars.They would do nothing for the boy because they didnt want to lose their position!I wrote a letter saying I no longer wished to be associated with the Watchtower corp.This site is spot on!
Carol Ali
Let's get one thing straight. This JW blog IS ACCURATE! As stated previously, I myself was a JW for almost 30 years. My father was an Elder. One of my JW friends experienced her child molested so she knows all about the 2-person-rule (witness to the act). Also, I used to be BEATEN UP and hit, punched and kicked (aside from the emotional and mental abuse) by my JW husband, even while I was pregnant (losing my baby). Do you know what one elder said to me when I finally had the courage to tell them what was going on, after years of trying to cover it up and be 'loyal' to my husband? 'We don't need anyone bringing the police into it. We'll keep it within the Organisation. Jehovah will deal with it in his own good time'. I stayed with my so-called 'perfect husband' and had 2 more children with him. The bullying and abuse continued. The worse part is that my children saw some of the hitting and the way their father treated me. Some role model, their 'spiritual' father!! All this is FACT. I was the one being abused. I was the one whom elders refused to help. There have been no lies in this JW blog, just the TRUTH (and I mean TRUTH in the correct sense of the word, not TRUTH as in 'we're in the 'Truth' crap religion!). Those of you who say that it's all lies either aren't JWs so you just hear what you want to hear and believe, or you are a JW but have been well and truly indoctrinated into this CULT.
Bonnie
I'm with you, Carol Ali. 40 years in the cult for me and 22 of them with my abusive Ministerial Servant husband. The elders fed me the same line of BS they did you and the same dangerous advice they still are pushing in the February 15, 2012 WT, to stay, pray, study, be patient and hopefully he won't kill you and if you're really lucky he'll become a witness too. There is a really great video for ex-sisters like you and I that I totally can relate to on YouTube and why we stay with these dangerous men way beyond reasonable time limits putting ourselves and our kids in harms way. The WT society is blood-guilty of all abused JW women who are eventually killed by their spouses. Here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
Dillen
That girl doesn't know what she's talking about...yeah, we make mistakes but making people choose between family over religion is just outright wrong! That girl can complain all she wants about you guys but this blog is my favourite one because you know how to write well by sticking to the point. She does sound quite brainwashed -- defending the JWs as if it's OK to have children trusting a complete a stranger that will hurt them! That's sick and wrong. I got no evidence to back up my support why the JWs is a fantastic religion because I came out of it feeling very hurt and lonely! JWs don't know what unconditional love is, so they are blinded to keep picking a terrible god over themselves and children.
Geowyn
Everything posted on this site is 100% accurate. My formerly Dub Mother, 40+ years in, loves to read the articles now the scales have fallen from her eyes.
If any JW can come on here and prove something posted is wrong or inaccurate I will eat my computer.
JWB's Reckoning
are you ready to eat your computer or were you just lying again!?
scroll to the top, hit JW Beliefs tab. scroll down to the Jehovah's Witness Rule, read was it says about the JW policy, everything.
after you have done that, go to this link below
http://thirdwitness.com/childa...
after you have read THE REAL POLICY (really, all you need to read is Chapter 2, unless your slow), you will see just how wrong & inaccurate the JWB post really is. if you can't see it, you are slow. some people just don't have the brain capacity to be a Jehovah's Witness. others are just stubborn. others rebellious. others evil
i don't see why slow people won't be forgiven. i mean it's really not their fault. some people just have low IQ's. but the rest of us...
Andrew
That only seems to back up what we have said... that the two witness rule applies. It says, "Still opposers say this is bad policy since child molesters usually do not molest with others around. This protects the molester and not the child. To this we say, The rule book is the Bible. Repeatedly the Bible speaks of the need for two witnesses to establish any matter."
It also says, "we know that two different children who are molested on separate occasions by the same person would qualify as the two witnesses" - so basically if one child is abused, they need to hang about until a second one is abused... and not to do anything until such a thing happens.
"The bottom line is that it is unscriptural to disfellowship someone at the mouth of one witness. Surely God's word should take precedent over the thinking of imperfect men." So, the article you point to CONFIRMS that the two witness rule is real, rather than prove us wrong, and tries to excuse it by saying it is scriptural. Nice try, but no honey.
Teeny
Andrew, I honestly don't have time for this guy. We've asked him to prove his point, yet all he does is talk tosh. Please ban him.
I have time for anyone that wants to find out the truth, not push their own agenda. It's obvious to me that this guy is more than confused about Watchtower policy.
B_Lo, if you want to be allowed to comment again on JWB, email me and let me know why I should allow you back on.
Suze
I was a JW for 30 years and I have seen no inaccuracies, lies or bullcrap in this blog. In fact it is very well researched and factual. Maybe if Jacquie had actually been a JW and then researched it, she could see it for what it was too? Probably her Mom or someone close to her is one and hey, no one likes to think badly of the beliefs of a loved one. But Jacquie, its not the regular JWs that this is about...its about the controlling organization. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society which treats them like sheep and is continually coming up with doctrines which can potentially hurt them... from the blood issue... to the shunning ....to the problems of not reporting known pedophiles within their congregations. It is a dangerous cult!
Jeffrey Roberts
I do believe this blog is as accurate as you can get. Nothing on here is wrong. How do I know this? I was raised a JW from infancy.I was baptized at 11 years old, a pioneer at 17, an MS at 19, went to the Ministerial Training School at 22, an elder at 23. I know a little more about the inner workings of that cult then most people do. I can tell you all that if you knew what goes on behind the scenes as it were, it would make you sick. I accomplished a lot in the 28 years of my life spent in that religion and I can tell you by what I know now, I wish I could get it all back.
Rhonda Williams
My father was an elder. He was appointed long before I was even born. I've always wanted to know what when on behind the scenes in "Elderdom" - between JC hearings and shepherding calls and their training. I left the cult 3 years ago at the age of 31. I've grown a lot emotionally since leaving but still wonder what was so important to my father that I never got to see him except at the dinner table, at meetings and in service. Maybe you could fill me in sometime? ;-)
Loren.
For the record I am not a Jehovah’s witness either, just a short time study. I have since researched this organisation and been hurt by it many times. I also think that all you express on your blog is truthful.
Speaking of hate mail I am shocked by the remarks some jw's make on the Conti case. Their words are hateful and ill-informed and devoid of any love or understanding of child abuse and it consequences, devoid of any love of fellow human, and human as a child too, the most vulnerable developmental stage.
No wonder the jw's are a hot house of paedophilia when members attack abuse victims in the way they do. Its appalling.
The woman above is over identified with a group that has no moral integrity therefore I would dismiss any attempts she makes to protect it. Her mind has been damaged.
She has the Jehovah’s sickness.
Sizemik
**For the record I am not a jehovahs witness…..**
Yeah right . . . how original.
andy
i was brought up a witness, baptised at 16 .. my family (less my sister are witnesses) and my dad is an elder.. and i can tell you what i read is spot on. normal people only see the "happy side" they portray until you upset someone then you get the "hidden" secret elders book side of the witnesses.. my witness following family now have nothing to do with me and dont see even my 3 children. this cult destroys families!!! i dont care about the beliefs.. this is all about the WTBTS and the hierarchy below them!!..
B_Low
I would like to thank everyone on this site for their comments about God's True organization, whether good or bad. & a special thanks goes out to Andrew & Teeny for their hatred & lies, but most of all Andrew, for the back & forth humor. makes me laugh, and gives me a sense of victory every time they HIDE or ERASE my comments. That just let's me know that I am getting the truth out, & that you REALLY don't want anyone to know that truth.
THANKS EVERYONE FOR HELPING TO FULFILL BIBLE PROPHECY!!!
KEEP UP THE...UHHH....GOOD WORK? BAD WORK? WHATEVER. GOOD FOR THE WITNESSES BAD FOR YOU.
I'VE GROWN TIRED OF PLAYING WITH YOU FALLEN SHEEP....WELL, AT LEAST FOR NOW...
I MAY COME BACK & BLAST Y'ALL AGAIN WHEN I GET BORED
Yours Truly,
B_Low A.K.A. JWB'S RECKONING
p.s. MWAHAHAHAAAHAAAHAHAHA!
Jason
B_Low p you wouldn't know truth if it came up and slapped you in the face. As a born-in JW I can certainly say there is not one lie in any of the articles written here. All you've done is display the persecution complex that is instilled in all JW's, to reconfirm all the lies in your beliefs, so you believe you have truth, which you don't. Neither does any other religion based on the bible. But from the sounds of its, you're either a troll or a bored little kid.
Andrew
B_Low I'll tell you again.. we don't hide your comments. I have to keep rescuing them from the spam filter because you can't spell, use grammar, or avoid excessive use of CAPS. Hey, even the computer is telling you that your comments are full of crap!
Carol Ali
I was a JW for almost 30 years from the age of 3. I can also vouch for everything that is stated in this blog. 100%
B_Low
Like I said before, all of that crap that this site says about the Jehovah's Witness Two Witness Rule protecting sex offenders, & trying to cover up crimes, is a LIE. In other words not true.
here is the policy
http://thirdwitness.com/childa...
So, if the JWB Guarantee was real, Then the blog on the two witness rule would have been retracted last month when I broke Andrew
Andrew
Don't know what that link is, B_Low but it isn't official JW stuff. The proof that JWs covered up child abuse is in the Candace Conti case that you refuse to accept.
And broke me? Ha ha! I love your comments!
Bonnie
I'm with Derangedjdub. A total of 40 years in the cult. I've seen it all. Nothing you have stated on this site is false. Only straight up, cut through the crap and JW rhetoric truth is what is published here, with a very much appreciated twisted sense of humor. If she feels we are "bullying" the witnesses, she should try being on the receiving end of a judicial committee or shunning... but, as she stated herself, she is "NOT one of JWs," so really, she has no room to speak on what they believe or do, or to criticize those who expose them for those things.
Danny Haszard
Jehovah's Witnesses are in *breach of the preach*.
Jehovah's Witnesses proselytizing is a false Gospel. (Gal. 1:8)
Straight up doctrinal facts on Jehovah Witness.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses teach preach that Jesus had his return aka second coming October 1914,then they spin all sorts of doctrinal embellishments on that date.
They teach only 144,000 go to heaven,on and on and on with made up man made dogmas……They have infighting,crime and child abuse as bad as any church out there.
Jehovah’s Witnesses promotion of their Watchtower sect has the net effect of stumbling and turning people off to the real Gospel.
Jesus said: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte; and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves” (Matt 23:15)
-
Danny Haszard born 3rd generation Jehovah's Witness
*Tell the truth don't be afraid*
Derangedjdub
With 40 yrs as a Witness - (and a combined total of 7 generations of family who are also Jehovah's Witnesses ) I can testify that your blogs are spot on!
B_Low
JWB guarantee is a lie. I proved your JW child abuse policy a lie & they have yet to retract it
Steve
Hey, B_Low, I proved that the entire basis of your religion is a lie, and you haven't stopped posting your irrational defenses of the WT religion yet, so you're a fine one to talk.
Andrew
You have not provided any evidence, only poorly worded diatribe - everyone can see your comments for themselves.









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Barinthus
Oh as for "using subtitles." Unfortunately due to how our legal framework is set up, many Deaf people have been deprived of their right to language so many Deaf persons out there will have difficulties reading subtitles. This is probably why Jehovah's Witnesses made ASL clips. Witnesses are very well known in the Deaf Community for their aggressive and extensive efforts to recruit/covert Deaf persons. Witnesses are one of very few religious organizations who "get it" regarding outreaching to Deaf people. It's unfortunate they're a bunch of loonies.
Barinthus
A bit late to the party. I'm Deaf and native ASL user. To clarify, the signs used in this video is very appropriate. ASL is a visual language so of course certain concepts will be very visual. While signers in this video (I'm assuming they're hearings) are of very high quality and demonstrate near-fluent aptitude in ASL, they could tone down the facial expression used. Perhaps it's the Latino guy's face and he wasn't trying to exaggerate, who knows.
To sum it up, props to them using high-quality signers although facial expressions could be toned down. The content of the clip, well that's an entire different issue.
Richard Schiller
No thanx, unbaptized, not even a member of the Cyrpress Tx kingdom hall (1982) a sexually reproved servant (Pearce) was allowed to request me in a back room with an elder (Zimmerman?) i didnt even know while he declared that they want to know if you masturbate, because they want to tell you that if you ever did this ONCE it means you want to be a homo. Then when i drove home 1000 miles and wrote to the WT, they ran over to an unbaptized 13-year old whose non-JW step-father would talk about dippy-dildos with her, to force her to write a letter that 25-year old me (the homo) was leading her on. I recorded our phone conversation, when i called her back on the letter. I AM STILL WAITING FOR THE WHY ITS WRONG FOR JWs to Back-ASS-PACK THEIR WIFE whether birth-control or pleasure, and how elders have no business telling other sisters trapped in the back seat of the car how to suck a penis without it being penetration or a disfellowshipping sin (and how their wife loves it). I find all this to be the minds of perverts who thrive on sex. They print NOTHING on anal sex. So you all scream about pedophiles.... doesnt where they put it get included in the topic? Lot of damage for a boy or girl. And no i doubt the WT or churches or anyone goes online, or they would see that mere buddy ads on Craigslist are posting cartoon comics of men doing 7 year olds.
capt. obvious
common sense dictates that they could have spelt the words out letter by letter in ASL instead of all the hand movements they used.
most signers i've seen are really fast at spelling, and it looks like it would have taken the same amount of time for the time they spent on the actions anyway...
SR
I've been around ASL speakers and they are expressive.
But I would be betting the level of expression here would have them either laughing like many of us or grossed out depending on age and morals. I was put on to this video by a mental health professional who was angry about the inappropriate display of the video, it is available for all irregardless of age. I can't agree more.
The Watchtower leaders do stay in their little tower where they are sheltered from reality. They never really get a feel for it when they wander out for assemblies where they are once again sheltered from the herd like world leaders, which is really how they think of themselves. So they have no real sense of propriety. When i was in I did here stories of circuit overseers questioning teenagers and other single males about doing it. I've always wondered if their wives did the same thing with the girls. I personally would've informed one who tried that with me it was none of his business. But then most of them were told I was "a fighter against Jehovah" by certain elders who didn't like me, so I guess they knew better.
I've left, after thirty years I left them without giving notice. After the way I was treated for those three decades I figured they didn't deserve the courtesy. When they figure it out they can do what they want, I'll just publish some really shocking stories about that time all over the net for people to see if they choose the DF or DA route. I'm already treated as if by family back there in the organization
Bonnie
To quote our Presiding Overseer's 20-something (at the time) son, several years back when I was still IN the cult... "any guy in the organization who says he has never whacked off is LYING!" Don't those old blue-haired perverts in Brooklyn have anything better to do with their time??? Wow! The signer seems like he's had practice - especially the facial expressions, pardon the pun.
Aureus
What the hell was that? Mime pornography?
Sally
At first I was grossed out, but then guy #2 came on and I couldn't stop laughing.
Jason
I watched the video. The guy pictured seemed to be really getting into the masturbation mode. I guess we might have a lot of kids yanking their invisible chain at the kingdom halls or the dinner table.
D
This is the funniest thing I've ever seen, however I do agree, how is it supposed to be represented in ASL?
Andrew
I don't think the problem is the ASL usage, its the vigour with which it is used that makes it funny.
andy
ive downloaded the video as this is one i have to show others.. you couldnt make this s*&t up lol
Muddy Waters
According to some people in the deaf community, this is how ASL (American Sign Language) represents the subject. (After all, how else are deaf people supposed to talk about this subject when their whole language is made up of gestures, including facial expressions...?)
To me, the objection comes from:
1). the WTS attempting to exert such control over its... members.
2). the WTS making no attempt to put caveats on this subject (eg: "Warning! This video/book/brochure/lecture includes subject matter that is of a mature subject matter." or some such).
3). And without the above warning or caveat, this information is at times, presented to CHILDREN of all ages at the KM meetings and assemblies. (Even more graphic topics such as anal and oral sex, bestiality! - etc., are presented at these same meetings!!) This goes beyond decency and unsurpts the parents' role.
Moya
Oh my goodness!! xD Tysm for sharing this.The extreme agonised facial expressions that I am sure are supposed to express how a Christian should feel about knocking one out now and then are really the cherry on this particular cake for me. Instead of feeling angry and resentful about how those twisted buggers made me feel all through my teenage years, now my belly hurts from laughing instead. :) You're an apostate treasure, Teens!
Teeny
Cheers Moya!
Mike
Three bethelites get in the elevator in crooklyn.They see what looks like semen on the control buttons.One mentions it looks like somebody jizzed on the buttons.The second smells it and confirms its jizz.The third tastes it and confirms its jizz but not from anyone on that floor!
No I'm Not Deaf
Bunch of Wankers. Nearly wet myself laughing.
Lacy
Wow. Just wow. If I wasn't already a lesbian, watching that guy would have clinched it! Good thing there wasn't sound as I wouldn't have been able to hear a word of it over the sound of my laughter!











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gcs7000
The WTBTS is an "empire of illusion," as every current and former JW knows. James, you should blog about how children as young as 8-years of age are encouraged to get baptized as JWs, a binding contract which can *never* be rescinded lest one be completely cut-off and shunned by one's family and friends. This in spite of the fact the Jesus, a perfect man who set the pattern for christian baptism, waited until age 30 to get baptized, and the fact (acknowledged in print by the WTBTS) that first century christians limited baptism to adults. Good work, James!
Andrew
Hi gcs7000 - we have indeed posted about child baptisms in the Jehovah's Witnesses - See http://www.jehovahswitnessblog...
Also, see http://www.jehovahswitnessblog...
Thanks!
Kathleen Conti
- This comment is in reply to a comment that has since been removed for its vile and disturbing content. The user 'Dream Weaver' has been banned from commenting on JWB.
Dream Weaver,
I have notified the owner of this web site and just know you are not welcome here. You are as sick as those who keep child sexual abusers secret with in Kingdom Halls. And you are just as guilty as anyone who would choose to protect the WT over protecting children.
Jaime
http://www.whitepages.com/name...
Danny Haszard
I applaud your blog!
My moment of clarity when I had my epiphany and learned the whole truth about the 'troof' was in 1992.My eyes were open on discovery that the elders from the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses Rockland Massachusetts were rotten to the core psychopaths.
I mean conniving bastards who took delight in reviling.
Google-"Village of the damned Kingdom Hall" for my blog on Rockland Massachusetts .-Danny Haszard now Bangor Maine
Juan Viejo
Excellent article, Mike. I've said so many times that being in the Watchtower is like being on the wrong side of Alice's "Looking Glass." What makes perfect sense to the rest of us simply can not be processed by anyone on the Watchtower side of the mirror.
When you read some of the articles on Ex-JW.com and other sites about the Menlo Park scandal, you can't help but wonder "what were they thinking?" Right from the very beginning when the Circuit Overseer ordered the existing elders to force a sister WHO LIVED IN THE MENLO PARK CONGREGATION AREA to transfer her publishing card and change her official Kingdom Hall to a location WHERE SHE DID NOT LIVE and DID NOT WANT TO TRANSFER TO - to transfer her anyway! When they resisted in an attempt to protect her rights and under the Watchtower's own guidelines, the Circuit Overseer notified them that they would be disfellowshipped for insubordination. In other words, the leaders of the Watchtower and their local representatives used trumped up charges and a kangaroo court to toss out 4 elders that had served faithfully for many years. When they resisted because they discovered that other illegal activities had taken place and they were being framed for those illegal activities. They took their case to court. Three of those longtime faithful brothers have been disfellowshipped without a proper judicial hearing or any opportunity to appeal.
I ask: How could any organization that acted so unfairly to not only the three elders, but also to an innocent and faithful sister, be under the guidance of a loving god? Someone please explain that disconnect!
Sizemik
But . . . you can live forever . . . in paradise . . . on earth!
Why . . . when only God's people remain, the world will be full of righteousness!
Can't you?
Won't it?
Loren.
It’s an alternate world.. Not in a good way either.
In addition to who is Gary Abrahamson-I would also like to find out more about Dr Monica Applewhite..from the Conti case- if you ever want to explore her background.
Catherine
It seems they themselves are 'mentally diseased' and not the socalled 'apostates'.











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Shabba
Hi,
Don't get me wrong I'm fine with God its cool. But the WTBS lies is what makes me angry! They lie so much and are so deceptive. Also im not making a big deal of it to her, i just hate seeing her lied to buy these old guys.
Shabba
Further to the above anything or anyone in CY wants to help me out then please feel free to mail me.. zeebo101(at)hotmail.co.uk
Shabba
Yo,
I have the problem that the FDS has worked magic on my wife to the point she wont even see reason. I can put WTs that tell her to examine her faith and provide quotes from the NW but in her mind its the Devil talking through me just as the GB warned her.
From what i gather last weekends DC in Cyprus was all about "Watch-out for apostate literature, stay off the internet, Satan knows its the end and really wants to take you from the truth".. I begged her to read Steve Hassan's books as this kind of phobia indoctrination is absolutely textbook.. use a phobia to control information and change the frame of reference.. oh well
She is a clever lovely woman but as Hassan says anyone can get sucked into a cult. My problem is that most people, and indeed Hassan, say that secretly they are wanting to leave but she seems to be 100% with them and doesn't have these doubts.. How did you guys get that first spark of doubt or feeling you were duped? Is it possible that she dosent feel it deep down?
She just switches off and even said scans of WTs i have are actually fakes!! lol i told her to find the original but ofcourse she never does..
Sonny
Well she might not be *interested* in having doubts at all. To her the alternative to believing there is a God and a future paradise is too costly to even consider. And (at least at present) it's even considered illogic. (Imagine there is no God and Darwin was right... nah impossible.) Many people think/feel like this and the more you push, the more they resist. It's never easy to know when to let a matter lay at rest and respect the other (1) and when to insist on having right about an issue (2). In my opinion, alternative 1 is fine in most cases as we're happy our counter-parts don't nag us to change all the time - as long as they respect us and try to understand us at some level.
Sonny
Thanks for sharing! Indeed very interesting to read. Myself, I've simply been open to everyone about my newly acquired disbelief and insisted on being respected for this, quitting the meetings .. but still maintained fellowship with friends and family :D
They bosses however told me (as I knew) I should generally be careful not to start discussions on "sensitive" topics or bluntly try to convince others that God doesn't exist etc. So here I am balancing on a thin line where everyone knows what I feel and still they accept my company occasionally, because I respect their views and feelings, not talking down on their beliefs.
I feel somewhat a hypocrit but it's also enjoyable not having to taste the awkward consequences of being disfellowshipped... And I do fully respect those of you who've left and made your stand totally clear for everyone around you, eating the consequences, but after careful considerations I for my part has not been willing or ready to do so. I'm sorry if I in that sense let you down in some way (?).
Sonny
smmcroberts
Whose revelation? Bernie has had some real lulus when he's been "under the influence", but most people don't buy into his visions of fiery chariots, witches, and man-spewing fish. Go figure!
As for me, I think the explanation for reality is right in front of our eyes without resorting to imagined spirit beings. Throughout history humankind has explained the unknown by "God did it." As we've gained more experience with reality we now know that the physical properties of matter give a full explanation.
Why did the boulder roll down the mountain and kill Jethro? "God was angry with him; he must've sinned." That was our explanation before we discovered gravity. Now our explanation is "gravity acted on the boulder; it had nothing to do with Jethro's personal life." We don't need the God hypothesis anymore; we have found the truth in the reality in front of our eyes. As our knowledge about how physics works increases our need to say "God did it" decreases until there's nothing left for God to do or to have done. "God" was just our ignorance.
William Huget
I can explain and observe a rock falling and killing someone. I cannot explain the complexity of creation (universe, beauty, truth, morals, animals, humans, etc.) without an uncreated Creator. Creation, Jesus Christ, Bible, conscience, etc. bear witness of truth that some of you suppress, yet without excuse (Rom. 1).
Andrew
Saying 'god did it' isn't an explanation. It's called the argument from ignorance. It is more honest to simply say, "I don't know" instead of pretending you know the answers.
We can explain complexity. Evolution explains that perfectly, and as I have said, evolution isn't a faith based position - it is a fact. If you have to deny evolution to keep your beliefs, you're probably wrong. In fact, there is no reason whatsoever not to accept evolution as true except because it would clash with your pre-existing supernatural beliefs. (Evolution explains the complexity and diversity of life, not where the first pieces of matter came from - that's another field of science called abiogenesis.)
smmcroberts
Well, I can explain all these things without Jesus and the Bible [or even Bernie], and the explanation makes a whole lot more sense to me. So either you need to bone up on your science, or we just need to agree to disagree.
Asia Nealy
I can understand peoples views on the no god thing.
But can't those miracles that happen be considered a type of evidence?
William Huget
Yes, miracles are evidence for a supernatural God.
smmcroberts
No; miracles are evidence for a magic troll named Bernie who lives under the bridge near my home.
William Huget
We know about God by revelation. Where did God come from? He is uncreated Creator, the First Cause. He had no beginning and no end. I cannot fathom this, but the awe leads me to worship Him. Something does not come from nothing. There is no explanation for reality apart from an uncreated God.
Andrew
Ah! You know Bernie too! Awesome!
Andrew
What you just said is like a lawyer in court court saying, "There was a murder, which is evidence that William did it." That's crazy and isn't evidence - I'd have to PROVE that William (for example) had committed murder, not just SAY he did. Same with miracles being attributed to god. Prove it.
Why aren't miracles evidence of aliens or magic unicorns instead? It isn't evidence FOR god, it is only evidence that we don't have answers for it. How you could possibly know what caused a miracle is just mad. You are just SAYING that god did it, without proving it.
William Huget
It is only begging the question if it is false. If true, then it is a declarative statement. C.S. Lewis and others have argued cogently for miracles/God. You are the one that believes Jumbo Jets could happen apart from intelligence with time/chance/matter (where did the matter come from). There is a big difference for the case against Flying Spaghetti Monster and the case for the Living God. You have an anti-supernaturalist paradigm, so you default to no explanation apart from a materialistic one. If you are wrong, and you are, then you are begging the question to say miracles cannot be real nor a proof for a supernatural being.
Andrew
Where did matter come from? What about god - where did he come from? At least we can measure matter around us. We can't measure god because it is not within the realm of nature. It is super-natural (supposedly) which means it is impossible to test and verify, and we should not accept that things exist if we can not test and verify it. Simple.
And as for the B747 example, as complex and complicated as that is, a god would have to be infinitely MORE complex and complicated to have created everything and is therefore even more unlikely... think about it.
Use some critical thinking. I will accept ANYTHING should I be shown the evidence but you have already made your mind up and don't seem willing to change your mind even if evidence was presented that disproved god. You've already made your mind up no matter what, and I'm done discussing it with you because you don't have an open mind towards anything I say.
Andrew
No, because you'd have to prove the miracle occured because of YOUR god, and not by any other god, or that there was any supernatural influence at all. A miracle is just something we can't explain yet, and every miracle and mystery that has ever been explained so far has been a natural explanation, not a supernatural one.
Erica Waggoner
I am so freaking out. My parents were substitute COs, I pioneered for 12 years, brother is Bethel elder, and I have anorexia (started around 11 years old - blossomed again at 40 years old) and feel like I am the most alone person on earth. I tried so hard to be good but clearly have some deep spiritual and personal flaws. Thanks for listening. I've been up all night (East Coast), am in treatment for anorexia (inpatient before, now 25 hours a week of outpatient), and kinda feel like I'm coming unglued. It is so weird to go to meetings and have people you have known and adored since birth not be able to speak. It's very true - I broke the rules. Big time. So I deserve this but it is so HARD.
Becky
Erica,
This is my first time on this site, but your comment literally brought tears to my eyes. The pain you feel, the pain of having "hurt god", or of disappointing your family, is a natural reaction to everything you've experienced. The guilt that is constantly pushed on JWs can be overpowering, making us feel sub-normal. There is this constant fear of others finding out that we do not "measure up".
The problem is these messages take over, are constantly with us, and they are not helpful thinking. If you've had cognitive therapy, you've probably heard of cognitive distortions. Please, please, examine your thoughts about yourself, check them out, to see if your automatic thoughts are really cognitive distortions engrained in you by a religion that specializes in thought control.
You do not deserve the pain you are going through. You have done things you are ashamed of, things you regret, things it would be unwise to repeat, but that does not mean you deserve to feel the pain you feel. Those feelings are directly caused by unhelpful messages. Those messages are worth fighting! YOU are worth the fight!
Please take care,
Becky
twizzlr
@erika: You broke THEIR rules. Realize that those rules are not THE rules. One of the greatest gifts we have been given is the freedom to forgive ourselves. I still believe in Jehovah (most days) and am coming to the realization that he is far less judgmental than those professing to serve him.
Andrew
twizzlr - have you even read the bible? Jehovah is very judgemental.
don albert
hey erica ~
i hear what you're saying loud and clear. if your 'inpatient' location is in or near nyc, i'd love to pay a visit.
don
Steve
Andrew is right, Erica; you do not deserve this. The people in your congregation are letting their fear override their love. They are victims, just like you, of a fear-mongering, mind-controlling cult. I experienced severe depression when I was amongst them.
You need real love (not shunning) to help you deal with your eating disorder. Take a break from meetings and focus on the loving care being provided by your health professionals. Yes, they are paid to help you, but most of them have chosen the medical field out of love for others. I always felt better amongst them than being around the so-called "friends" at the Kingdom Hall.
Andrew
Erica,
Sorry to hear you are troubled. The fact you are feeling this way is only testament to the fact that the Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult. You do NOT deserve such treatment. If you aren't in prison for harming other people, there is nothing you could have done to deserve it. This experience should only open your eyes to the fact that the organization aren't loving at all.
Get out!
ajw
haha, I remember hiding that book in my car as I didn't want my wife to be upset.
They really should encourage reading contrary stuff, while they might have less believers the ones they did have would at least be more sincere believers.
I'm fairly lucky I guess, I was open about my disbelief and thought I might get df'd but ended up just being left only to fade out.
William Huget
There are credible answers for all these concerns (existence of God, problem of evil/suffering, alleged contradictions in the Bible, etc.).
Chad Stanley
William: I looked very hard and all I found were flimsy excuses and intellectually dishonest confirmations of bias. I've read christian apologetics extensively. I've debated endlessly with christian apologists. Please remember, most former JW's were convinced by the same things that convince you. We know the arguments because we've made them ourselves.
If there is a deity of some sort, the chances of it being Yahweh of the bible are extremely remote. And as Andrew said, if Jehovah were to reveal Himself to me, I would rather die than call him "good."
Andrew
William, don't take this in a bad way (I am not being angry here) but that simply isn't so. No human has yet proven god exists (or you wouldn't need faith), the excuses for evil are just that - excuses. If we were talking about Hitler instead of god, you'd likely have agreed with us. And contradictions have not been answered except to start making certain things symbolic or trying to find loopholes. There are contradictions and even outright wrong statements in the bible.
That said, I am always open to friendly discussion. Feel free to email me on andrew@jehovahswitnessblog.com. As long as it stays polite (which unfortunately has not often been my experience from religious people) and objective, I would be very happy to share ideas.
William Huget
I fail to understand why so many who are burned by false religion give up on God (who exists and is loving and holy) and become secular, atheists, etc.
Chad Stanley
Unlike a lot of folks I meet online, I wasn't actually burned by the JW's. I had a wonderful congregation of people who were loving. They were thoughtful when someone needed a hand or a shoulder, and mostly minded their own business when they were supposed to. That wasn't always my experience, but I did in fact find a little pocket of "spiritual paradise" right before I left.
I was burned by Jehovah. I had doubts and questions like everyone does, but the stuff I couldn't get over is why Jehovah drowned babies in the flood. Why did He force Israelite soldiers into so many bloody wars when He clearly had the power to do His own dirty work himself? I mean, He commanded men as conscientious as you or me to run pregnant women through with a sword. For what? His vanity?! I left the JW's because the god of the bible is immoral and I couldn't teach that to my child. The idea of going to some other christian religion would have been absurd.
For the life of ME, I never understand why some people stop questioning after they leave. They doubt just enough to realize that the Watchtower is a cult, but they don't go so far as to question Jehovah. I did. The god of the Bible is a petty, insecure, immoral monster. If He had asked me to kill my child to prove my love I would have told him to go to hell. Who calls that loving? Who is able to convince themselves that this terrible book with very few good ideas in it is the pinnacle of morality?
I live a very happy and ethical life, and it has nothing to do with an ancient Israelite deity or the flawed and lacking laws found in that book.
Andrew
@Chad - I also struggle to understand why people stop questioning. I feel like they are just replacing one bad thing for another bad thing, sometimes not realizing that the same points apply.
I can't be sure, but your comment sounds like you've heard or read Christopher Hitchens? He certainly influenced my thinking, helped me to realise that it was okay to question god and to think for oneself rather than have your morals dictated to you from an ancient immoral book. I completely agree with you that he is immoral - even if religionists proved to me today that god was real, I would rather die than worship him for a second.
Chad Stanley
Andrew: You're right, I am a great fan of Hitch. I pretty much lifted the Abraham example straight from him. But I didn't get into Hitchens until I was already an atheist. I mainly used the Watchtower CD ROM library to reason my way out of the Org. I refused to read apostate or atheist material because of how impressionable the WT teaches us we are; I was afraid my reasoning would be tainted by external agenda. So I had to slog through THEIR agenda. haha...
William: There is a movie about Jews in WWII concentration camps called "God on Trail." The final scene is basically a monologue that perfectly explains why I don't believe in the god of the Bible. It's 10 minutes. If you are truly interested in knowing why people lose faith in God and not just "false religion," may I suggest watching this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
Andrew
Yes, Hitch was amazing. I had a great respect for the man even though I didn't agree with everything he said, and I was very sad when he died. I am waiting for my copy of "Mortality" to arrive in the post.
Steve
Let me see if I can help you understand, William.
After I was "burned by false religion" I didn't immediately become an atheist. No; I checked out other religions, but this time with a more critical eye. Due to having my brain engaged this time around, I easily saw that the other religions were also false: all of them based on a rotten foundation.
Then I decided to educate myself by reading philosophy, science, history, classic literature, psychology, comparative religion, even Darwin's works. When I compared the scientific method of pursuing truth to the static method of religion I saw that there was no contest.
As I was in the middle of my investigations I heard on the radio that a church roof had collapsed killing a nine year-old girl engaged in worship. It drove home the point of history: there is no loving God looking out for us.
It became plain to see that "God" is the explanation from ignorance: science is the explanation from reality.
But I thank religion for helping me to become less gullible.
Andrew
Well said, Steve, "It became plain to see that “God” is the explanation from ignorance: science is the explanation from reality." The scientific method is wonderful, and I have found that life is even more amazing and the universe more awe-inspiring when the limitations of the supernatural has been left behind. (By the way, Steve, I am nearing the end of your book.)
William, I hope our answers have helped you understand our position a bit better, which really should be the default position for everyone on every claim.
Andrew
William, we get a lot of trolls on here, but I am going to assume you are genuine in your comment so I will answer.
I didn't become an atheist because I got 'burned' by religion. I became an atheist because I reassessed WHY I believed in god in the first place and realised there was no evidence whatsoever. After I became an atheist, I then researched the religion I was in further. There is no good reason to believe in the supernatural at all and again you make an assertion - "who exists and is loving and holy" - yet how you could possible know this I don't know as there is no supporting evidence for such a claim. Rationally, we should never believe anything until it is supported by evidence.
At the end of the day, being burned by religion doesn't often cause people to stop believing in god, but it more often makes them more curious and to test whether they are in the faith. I didn't 'give up' on god, which implies some kind of choice to ignore him despite believing in him - I simply stopped believing that he exists at all. If evidence was presented that proved god existed, I'd be open to accept it - I go where the evidence leads. I still wouldn't worship him, but I'd accept that he is real. Nope that explains things a bit.
Chad Stanley
"Once upon a time, on a very boring day at the District Convention of Jehovah’s Witnesses here in Cyprus, I was fed up. I got up from my seat and went to walk around a bit. By this point, I had been an atheist for about a month or two and was keeping it secret for fear of the Jehovah’s Witness shunning that would ensue."
I read this and thought "Ugh, how miserable that poor guy must have been." Then an almost identical scene from my own memory flashed into my head. hahaha... The things we sweep under the rug of memory to move on. That time, merely 4 years ago, feels so distant that it almost doesn't feel real. Secretive research, crippling depression, looking for any excuse to skip meetings, literal weeping and gnashing of teeth. Seems so... cute, in hindsight. But back then I couldn't have known how it was going to turn out. I had a 10 month old daughter. A sincere desire to be honest with her is one of the main reasons I began to address my doubts in the first place. What if my wife decided to leave me and take her? Almost worse, what if she stayed with me and we were an "unevenly yoked" home?
But I got extremely lucky. Now we are a happy secular family. We have wonderful "worldly" friends, and, happily, we've been able to reconnect with other JW friends who left. It takes courage, and as you point out, everyone's experience will differ, but I have absolutely NO regrets. I could not be happier with my decision to put my faith in the JW's to the test.
Andrew
Hi Chad,
I had the same worries too about my daughter being taken away from me. What a sick cult to put people through that!
trusting poet
A sad fact is, that its not just doubt about God or any of the JW teachings that so many are afraid to discuss. I still carry fear to this day about contradicting anyone on anything unless it is under the mask of anonymity. I avoid conflict at all cost, I am afraid to question anything or to voice my own opinion in my everyday life. Its truly sickening to me to realize just how much control they have in my mind even though I have been df'd for 10 years. I have gotten better in the last couple of months, mostly because of this site... but I still have a very long ways to go. 19 years of brainwashing is a very hard thing to overcome, esp when there is no one in my life I can turn to that can understand... So thank you for running this site. It has given me that place to turn to.
Andrew
I'm glad JWB is helping you reassert yourself, trusting poet. Thanks for the comment - we appreciate it.
Dyllen
I slowly faded out of the cult and never looked back since. Towards the end of 2003, as I was just finishing grade eight in high school, my parents knew they couldn't keep on forcing me or making me stay in the religion because of the way I kept on thinking outside of the box so very often. Yes, I was shunned but not disowned -- it took me what seems like forever, but under one year, to have my siblings and parents talking to me again, knowing I am the same person they loved from the start. And after leaving it all behind, soon my mother did some research about the JWs and decided it wasn't a true religion after all. As for my dad and siblings, it took them a while to grasp the idea or fact that there is no Armageddon JUST SUITED for the selfish JW robots! And because I was the first one out of it -- slowly, slowly, my family started getting out of it as well. Today it's just my second youngest sister who is stuck in it and we've reminded her heaps of times that if ANYTHING goes wrong in that cult of hers, she will have her (worldly) family to fall back on for support for sure!
Thank you, Jaymes. :3
Teeny
Hi Dyllen,
Don't thank me, thank Andrew for writing the article :-)
You mean Armageddon isn't coming???
:-)
William Huget
Regardless, this shows the difference between a mind control cult that does not allow questioning, objective, independent research, and non-abusive churches that do not fear these things. There is no excuse for blindly following an organization led by fallible men (Catholic, Mormon, JW, etc.). Evidence based truth vs error is the issue (whether Christianity, atheism, etc. is the true worldview).
Andrew
Precisely! Jehovah's Witnesses are a mind controlling cult.
Steve
And lest anyone should think that fear of expressing doubts is only justified in weak congregations, let me tell you my experience. I was still a full-blooded JW Bethelite when I expressed my doubts to the Governing Body themselves (in the form of a letter addressed to the "Writing Committee"). These weren't doubts about the existence of God (I hadn't progressed that far yet), but merely doubts about how honest it was for the Writing Committee to use deceptive language in the Yearbook regarding the failed prophecy of 1925. (I had gone back and read the original 1925 Watchtowers in the Bethel libraries, so I knew the 1975 Yearbook was lying.)
I asked for an explanation, and expressed my opinion that they owed us (JW's) an apology(!) Can you guess how that went down? Did the humble "slave" prove faithful and discreet and correct the situation? I guess you might really expect that if you were as naive as I was then. Their actual response proved more valuable to me personally; it has kept me from ever setting foot in a Kingdom Hall again.
Brad L. Wilson
This post is now in the top 5 things I have read since joining the ex-jw forums in Nov. 2008. Awesome gang, just awesome.
Cheers, Brad
Andrew
Thanks Brad!!
William Huget
The problem is not with God, Christianity, Jesus, Bible, but with wrong views of them. One is correct to reject the pseudo-Christian cult of JWs, but one has no excuse to reject evidence based revelation from God. Dawkins is lame in his anti-theist arguments and has been refuted by far greater minds. Gullibility and deception leading to WT slavery should not be carried over to uncritically accepting strident Dawkins (who is wrong on some many points that even thinking atheists distance themselves from him).
Andrew
Hi William,
You clearly haven't read it then. I wish people would actually read stuff before they dismiss it. I read the damned bible, after all!
I don't agree with everything Dawkins has ever said, but the idea that his arguments have been refuted is laughable. No person in the history of the world has ever provided real evidence for god. That's why you need the 'faith' card.
Your comment is full of loaded language, implying I am not a 'thinking' person if I agree with Dawkins and that I did not critically assess his position. You assert god exists without evidence, then claim that you have the correct view of him - really? You just so happen to have the right one? You have access to information and evidence the rest of us don't? Sorry to say, and this may come off as rude in a comments area, but that's nothing short of arrogant.
I knew that saying I was an atheist would annoy some religionists. You just can't win. They call out for respect for their beliefs, yet I am guaranteed some preachy holier-than-thou comments like this every time I mention my lack of belief in a god. This post wasn't about believing in god or not. It was about fear of talking about such a subject in the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Believe in god or not, that's up to you and we might disagree, but please keep your preachy baseless assertions to yourself.












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Eric
I was a JW and was disfellowshipped about 20 years ago. I still feel the effects, guilt, shame of leaving the organization!!! The programming does run really deep within me and for a long while I was really messed up! I try to be careful about labling myself as a victim.
I was deeply saddened by the lack of support and the clicks in the organization. I had friends that were close as long as I was a good witness and was safe to be around. A lot of the time I was feeling left out with many who I called friends because I did not fit in with them and this was deeply hurtful. My father was dying of cancer at the time and I didnt know how deeply this was impacting me. My mother had already died when I was 11 years old. After my father died I wanted to experience the world fully. I was tired of living suppressed. I was threatened with disfellowshipping if I continued masterbation and who I dated was controlled as well. I was struggling deeply with my fathers death, masterbation and pornography. It was not too long after my fathers death that I was disfellowshipped for "indecent conduct" - a flagrant disregaurd for Jehovah's laws. I WAS shunned by all who I knew. All but a few, and of course the elders would not talk to me. I was ignored and viewed as unsafe at meetings and in public when I was seen by fellow witnesses. I tried to force myself to repent. Which had a severe psychological and emotional impact, even to this day, 20 years later!!! I tried to go back many times. I tried deeply to stop masterbation and porn. I could stop the porn, but the masterbation I could not!!! I prayed with all my heart and being to jehovah and jesus for help and none came. I had never done drugs before I was 22 years old. After leaving the organization I reasoned that if I didnt go back Jehovah was going to kill me in a terrible and painful way and I would be dead for all of eternity. YES, they actually teach this, even to this day. So I became the worst person I could. I experienced everything the world had to offer. I went to the darkest places of my life and I was on a suicide run. Because to me, deep within I felt in a catch 22!!! I could not go to christianity because then I would go to hell. I could not go back to Jehovah because I was close to the unforgivable sin - apostacy!!! I felt ultimately and eternally screwed! I became a drud addict and an alcoholic. I started smoking cigarettes. I experienced much of the gambit of dark experiences. I suffered deeply and greatly. And through grace and my own Soul I am still here.
I am 41 years old now. I have gone through 2 recovery programs and been homeless many times. I have struggled with gurus and cult organizations. I have deeply longed for redemtion and forgiveness for all of these years and it never came to me!!! I loved Jehovah and Jesus with all of my heart and Soul (yet they teach that we dont have a soul). I felt and still feel betrayed, left and abandoned from the one who I looked to the most - God in the form of Jehovah. I went to Hinduism looking for answers. And to many places in between.
I now have a long term home. I am healing the addictions and becoming healthier. I was viably crazy for many years and rocked with psychological and emotional trauma, grief and loss. Today, I am a much more sane man and healthier than I used to be.
Still though, I feel the indoctrination. I work very hard to stay within myself and not give my power away to gurus, belief systems, lovers and relationships. My time with the JW's impacted me severely in all of these areas and much more of my life. In the life that I have thus lived I have learned and experienced that there is grace and a way through anything. I have faith and hope that there is freedom from this indoctrination and enslavement to what was once my world and my life.
Bonnie
My daughter in law (who left the cult a year ago) recently penned two separate letters to our relatives who are still in the cult, prompted to do so by the recent tragic suicide of Eric Reeder (Oompa) after he could no longer take the ostracism and isolation and depression caused by being shunned. Her letter has given words to many others who were trying to find a way to broach the subject with their own JW family members. It's rather long, but let's face it, the lives of our loved ones are at stake here. Perhaps it will help others on this site, as well.
Dear Family
A member of the EX-Jehovah's Witness community who was also a member of one of the support groups that I am a part of, has committed suicide. He could no longer deal with the depression that comes along with being SHUNNED simply for no longer believing in the MAN MADE organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. He knew NO ONE that was not a Jehovah's Witness and therefore lost EVERYONE overnight. Disfellowshipping and shunning is psychological torture. Your bible has been changed and manipulated to fit the teachings of the MEN that make up the governing body who claim to be used by God. The organization has made more false predictions that one can count and is a FALSE PROPHET even by the bible's definition.
IT IS FACT. You are being lied to and misled on a daily basis and it is the ones who discover the lies about the organization, as I did that are punished for it by being shunned and slandered. Such an organization IS NOT from God. I could keep my mouth shut if people weren't DYING at the hands of this organization but they are and it happens more often that you know.
I understand that you are programmed to think, "Well, if these ones hadn't left Jehovah, this wouldn't happen." It is one of the many heartless responses that you have been programmed to say. The problem is that while you claim to be loyal to God, your loyalty REALLY lies with the handful of old men who claim to be God's mouthpiece and who tell you what you are to believe and punish you if you don't.
I pray that someday you will consider the facts, historical, biblical and otherwise that prove the falsity of the organization. There is a reason the organization warns you against "apostates." They are not evil, or being led by Satan. They are not "mentally diseased" as the Watchtower has recently labeled us. They are, quite simply good-hearted, loving people who know the truth about the organization and as you do not hold back from speaking to others about your beliefs, neither do they.
Many of them, myself included have lost a great deal at the hands of the organization and wish to protect others from the same fate. The majority had to start COMPLETELY over in their lives upon leaving or being kicked out and have suffered incredible injustices. I realize you have been programmed to have very little empathy for those who do not believe in the organization but I had to try.
g7/09p.29 Is It Wrong to Change Your Religion?***
"No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family."
(Straight from the mouth of the governing body. What unbelievable hypocrites).
Rachel
Dear Family
Please consider. How can the WT Society say this...
"What if we have a relative or a close friend who is disfellowshipped? Now our loyalty is on the line, not to that person, but to God. Jehovah is watching us to see whether we will abide by his command not to have contact with anyone who is disfellowshipped.—Read 1 Corinthians 5:11-13.
"Consider just one example of the good that can come when a family loyally upholds Jehovah’s decree not to associate with disfellowshipped relatives. A young man had been disfellowshipped for over ten years, during which time his father, mother, and four brothers “quit mixing in company” with him. At times, he tried to involve himself in their activities, but to their credit, each member of the family was steadfast in not having any contact with him. After he was reinstated, he said that he always missed the association with his family, especially at night when he was alone. But, he admitted, had the family associated with him even a little, that small dose would have satisfied him. However, because he did not receive even the slightest communication from any of his family, the burning desire to be with them became one motivating factor in his restoring his relationship with Jehovah." Watchtower 2012 Apr 15 p.12
and then say this...
g7/09p.29 Is It Wrong to Change Your Religion?***
"No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family."
The organization is saying that it is only okay for Jehovah's Witnesses to make family members worship in a way they find unacceptable and make them choose between their beliefs and their relationships but it is NOT okay for people of OTHER religions to make those COMING INTO the organization choose between their beliefs and their family.
If you cannot see the stunning hypocrisy, than the organization has blinded you as it has blinded 7 million others across the globe.
Although I will always love them and miss them, I do not in any way have a "burning desire" to be with any of my family or past "friends" who choose to not be in my life because I do not believe what they do and I regret and repent of the times I have put people in that position when I was in the organization. I have rebuilt my life and am relishing in true relationships that are not founded on or dependent upon mutual belief. The only burning desire I have is to keep people away from this destructive, false and blood guilty cult and it is something I will never return to. I write these things with nothing but love in my heart and an earnest desire to stand up for what is right and what is the real truth.
As the article above asks you to consider the "good" that comes from shunning, I will ask you to consider the bad: A 51 year old man takes his life because his family and friends "loyally uphhold the governing body's decree not to associate with disfellowshipped relatives." I am going to venture to say the bad far outweighs the "good." All shunning is, is emotional blackmail and all it accomplishes is making people come back to the organization for the wrong reasons. They, for the most part do not return for God, they return because they love their families. They are forced to become hypocrites saying they believe in something that they don't so they can have their relationships. This is what the organization sees as "good".
Rachel
Michelle
I was a baptised witness up to the age of 16 when i disassociated MYSELF.I saw it as my choice of a resignation rather than a sacking but ofcourse they can't have that,so they disfellowshipped me. Anyways,they definitely do shun,i have it in writing from my own mother. She wrote me a letter when i was 16 stating that she could no longer associate with me as i had turned my back on Jehovah. Lovely,and the Witnesses say they do not destroy families!When the Witnesses now come to my door,i simply state,'i would rather go down with a sinking ship than live forever after with such people as my mother and other members of my family that turned their back on me.
Asia Nealy
Who did you stay with after you were disfellowshipped? That must of been pretty painful to have your mother do that especially when your still in your teens
Asia Nealy
The WTS use Biblical "proof" for this, such as 1 Corinthians 5:9-13:
In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? "Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves."
The Greek for the words "quit mixing in company" is "sunanamignumi".
This means according to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance:
"To 'mix up together, i.e. associate with; (have, keep) company (with)."
Also, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament says of the same word:
"to keep comany with, to be intimate with..."
The same source further uses 1 Corinthians 5:9 and 11 and 2 Thessalonians 3:14 as examples of how the word is used in the Greek text.
This is in contrast with the Greek word "mita". In Strong's Exhaustive Concordance it is interesting to note that this word "sunanamignumi" is shown to mean a much closer association than that or the word mita which merely denotes:
"accompaniment; amid (local or casual) - general association
Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament also says regarding the Greek word sunanamignumi:
"A fellowship far closer and more intimate than that expressed by mita, although in the N.T. (New Testament) this distinction is much oftener neglected than observed. So from here it can be seen that the word used in 1 Corinthians 5:9 and 11 denotes close association, as with a friend, or someone with whom one would normally share a meal with"
So, you can see there is a clear distinction between "mita" (general association) and "sunanamignumi" (close association). This is clearly demonstrated in the Greek language.
We can see why Paul recommended that there should be no "close, or intimate association", or sunanamignumi
When we look at the two words we can clearly see the expression Paul uses really does not suggest at all that one cannot say a simple "hello" out of common courtesy to such an individual. Paul's warning is not to become "intimate" with the individual. However, he could have some "casual" or "general association" since this is what he would have with persons in general.
Pauls councel at 1 Corinthians Chapter 5 does not suggest that a Christian cannot be cordial to disfellowshipped individuals. He could have "general or casual association" with such individuals, which is what the scriptures really indicate.
Nico
Good for you Collette! I'm glad you're doing better & rising above. I've made a really concentrated effort for a long time now not to think about my child hood or that messed up cult. After awhile it works. You live in the present & wow it's nice. Until I go on a website like this & think about it. There really needs to be more support groups! lol
Collette
Dear fellow former Witnesses,
I dissfellowshiped myself back in 1998. I wrote a letter and shove it under the Kingdom Hall door. At the time I admitted myself to a phsychiatric klinic due to having repeated and intense panick attacks. I had no idea why - back then. I tried going to the elders but they just said I wasn't praying enough, I should pray harder and do more. Well I did, but things got worse for me. I felt so alone and abandoned and all they were asking was how many hours of preaching work I had managed. In the end I remember I only managed to do 10. Well the look on the faces.............. I wrote that I didn't feel worthy enough of serving Jehova. I felt I wasn't good enough to be there. Can you imagine that? I didn't feel good enough. So I chose rather to leave the Org than to soil it with my presence. That was my reason for leaving. I still get these dirty looks and laughs behind my back when I see former sisters walking down the road. I've learned to cope with that by smiling very sweetly and saying hello. Well then you should see the faces. :) I decides just because they weren't going to be christianlike, I was. These people are not only pretending to serve the true God, no, they take it many steps further - they actaully become Gods. They are your judges and they have power to shunn you away. The think for you, and tell you what to do, how to do it and when. They lie like it is the truth. What God are they trying to please? I think I know.
I still have problems in my life to this day - psychologically that is. 14 years ago, and it still hurts. But I know I'm not alone. Many of you ex-witnesses have come out due to seeing through the illogical teachings of the organisation. That Organisation does not own me. Not anymore.
Number6
I'll say it if no one else will: religions that advocate shunning are a bunch of cults.
Andrew
Hi Number6 - I think we've all said it up to this point :-D You are right, of course.
Pete
As a former JW for over 20 years, I can attest to the very plausible sound of all of the comments under this blog subject so far.
I slaved as a Pioneer, ministerial servant, elder and even did some circuit work and assisted with the WTBS legal department, on child custody cases.
Normal family affections do not continue, how could they, it's a preposterous statement. I was considered an apostate, how could my zealous wife hold my hand while around other witnesses, let alone continue to be 'evenly yolked' when she could not even speak about anything of substance anymore with me.
I chose to write a letter of dissasociation (which isn't even a word) as I felt it would have more impact on others and they would not simply conclude that I grew weak and drifted away.
My involvement was huge, I performed many acts of kindness far beyond the usual. Helping the 'fatherless boys', supporting single parents, visiting the sick and elderly, building Kingdom halls, Bethel construction, giving speeches (talks) both public (Sunday) and at other meetings & assemblies (once at the Olympic Stadium in Montreal to over 14,000 people) , sat on judicial committees (to judge and disfellowship others, and appeal committees), conducted countless bible studies and meetings.
After I withdrew, my Mother (a JW) wrote to my former wife, calling me 'worse than the devil' (among many other things) because I celebrated a birthday with my special needs daughter. This is far from normal family affection. She continues to shun me after 10 years and has not attempted to contact me.
My whole family abandoned me, all of my friends and acquaintances cut off all contact, like I should be despised as the worst of monster criminals. 
I have seen more pain from this cult on both a personal level in my life and others that I have reconnected with after they have left. I know of suicides either directly because of the shunning or of people not being true to themselves and not being able to face the prospect of being shunned. I myself was in the darkest part of my life and wondered if it was still worth living, no friends, my hopes and dreams destroyed, no resources or money, many years dedicated to a worthless cause. No place to turn.
This cult has torn apart three generations of my family either directly or indirectly.
My special needs daughter is forced to go to meetings, and preach, taught to flog magazines. Told she must marry a man that loves Jehovah. Has cried saying, she doesn't want Jehovah to kill me... Has cried many times about how her mom slaps her when she doesn't listen (corporal punishment is still allowed, even encouraged). Cries when she can't attend Christmas concerts or school assemblies for her mother's religious reasons.
I extend my heart to anyone who wishes to contact me. I would gladly assist people to deprogram themselves from this destructive mind controlling cult. I've seen all sides of it, pulled apart their beliefs and reasonings and techniques. I have no anger or bitterness toward the sheep that are mislead and still in the grips of this tyranny.  I would love to see this cult exposed and dismantled, I offer my service as an experienced speaker and confidant to any that need support, specifically with the JW's
May you find peace in your hearts and know that leaving the JW's is very much like torture, but you are not alone and your strength will help others find courage as well. There is no god like the Jehovah God of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Pete
peter_jones2@hotmail.com
Dillen
JWB, it's true what they do in that cult...you'll get into trouble for the smallest mistake you do and next minuet you know, you're shunned or disfellowshiped from your family and friends! Too many young people are dying from attempting suicide and it has to stop. JWs deny all sorts of things when an inactive one like me says something bad about it and it's sick! Life is a beautiful thing but the WTS steal that away from you and act like nothing has happened when an innocent person like you is shunned. They are disgusting people!
Sizemik
Spot on with the description Andrew . . . as anyone who has lived it will concur.
There's not much in the way of mental health research data available, as both JW's and ex-JW's alike don't always state their religion in medical records. But I remember reading an Australian report some years back which put the incidence of suicide at 4 times the average, and mental health disorders at 16 times. Only confirmed cases were used so the figures were believed to be conservative. The practice of shunning, or fear of it, doubtlessly plays a significant role.
It's a psychologically barbaric practice fomented by those who are either very ignorant or totally callous . . . or both.
Thanks for sharing.
Frank
I used to be a "would be hopeful follower" of the JW's back in the early 1990's. I abandoned my old church in 1992 to jump on the JW bandwagon. I was so vulnerable at the time and seeking spirituality that when they talked to me and everything, I believed everything that they taught and swallowed everything hook, line and sinker. I actually was active going to door, attending the meetings, enrolled in the Theocratic Ministry School and gave talks on those nights. For a while, I actually was enjoying everything that I did. I had a zeal and enthusiasm for all of it like you wouldn't believe. They had me convinced that what I was doing was helpful to others and that it was part of being a "true Christian" in "the one true Christian congregation on Earth".
As those two years wound down, I started losing interest in the work. I wanted to leave at one time, but was talked out of it and gave it another try. But it wasn't the same anymore. I continued attending the meetings, but stopped going out on their door to door ministry as I was getting sick of getting up and doing all of that. I was also the victim of lies when a few young ladies made up false stories about me and told the elders about them, and though I defended my innocence, and I was innocent of the accusations, the elders took the word of the young ladies and when the time came, when they went to their annual district convention in August 1994, I decided to stay home and then, I dropped out of the cult, stopped my associations with them and washed my hands of my entire relationship with them.
Yes, they shunned me and also accused me of abandoning them, when in reality, they were the ones who did the abandoning. For a while, the shunning did hurt, but I really don't care anymore. I now have friends and I am back in my old church after many years and it has been wonderful.
As far as the JW's go, they can all "GO TO HELL!" for all I care now. They don't matter to me anymore.
Thanks for this blog.
Jacqueline
You would be a great help on this call in. Please attend if you can. We are trying to prevent suicides. We just had one in AU. this July, a victim of the pedophile abuse scandal in AU.
Thank you. And I will post this site in a comment today so ones can read this.
http://www.friendsofjehovahswi...
Nico
I was just shunned a few months ago. I was so randomly too. Was on an Art Walk with my mother & some JW woman, who knows absolutely nothing about me, said hi to my mother hugging her closely. Then stuck up her nose as she walked past my husband, 2 well behaved small children, myself, & two of my Uncles. Considering we're 1300 miles & oh 8 or maybe 10 years from the last time I attended a meeting I just started laughing. None of the rest of the family ever set foot in a hall but she didn't know that! I loudly asked my mother what stick was up her butt but my mother said she just doesn't like kids. Oh yeah right! You don't own God so get over yourselves JoHo's!
Never did understand the "Disassociating Letter" so I didn't do it. Seems kind of pointless am I right? "Hi, You don't know who I am but I moved down here in 1997 to escape my JW mother & her cheating abusive upstanding MS JW husband. I think I went to 4 or 5 meetings between then & 2002 but just in case you're unsure of my status I think you're all full of it. If there's an inactive publisher card in your basement offices somewhere with my name on it please Recycle. Sincerely..." LMBO
Nico
That was probably unclear I moved again in 2006, & again in 2007, & again in 2009 so there's no way she the lady knew me either. She just assumed!
Elias Barton
It is completely untrue that "normal family affections and dealings continue." My father was disfellowshipped for smoking cigarettes when I was a child. Throughout my entire childhood into adulthood, the congregation and the elders had me believing he was an awful person and horrible father. Anyone who came over would ignore him and pretend he wasn't even in the room (those that even would come over to a house tainted with a non-believer).
This damaged my relationship with him beyond belief. It blinded me to the fact that he was a great father and a better man than many JW's. He even put up with all of this inhumane treatment because he loved his family. It was only recently that I apologized to him (for the congregation's behavior) and explained to him how damaging the church had been to our family and our confidence.
Strangely, or perhaps not so strangely, dispite not believing their doctrine, he returned to the JW's solely so he could have contact with the grandkids. Sad.
andy
my elderly parents and my brother and family have all shunned me because i........ dum dum dum ...remarried (and thats what i was DF'ed for as well). my ex who is still a JW divorced me because i left her because i couldnt stand her controlling behaviour anymore after 12 years of marriage. now they miss out on seeing their grandchildren and apparently its all my fault.
they wont ever accept its a cult without opening their mind to believe it because they are programmed to believe only the watchtower is true and everything else is lies even if you can prove it..
Number6
Your parents must be as close-minded as mine - I guess most JWs are, seeing as they all sing from the same hymn sheet, literally.
I showed my dad, a long-time elder, all the WTS spiel about the 1975 false prophecy, the non-apology, reminded him of how our family endured all those fervent 70's meetings and assemblies, etc, the JW's masonic origins - I threw everything at him and we finally got to the point where he said, "I know, but what else is there?"
I thought I'd made a breakthrough until a week later when I got a postcard from him with this cryptic quote on the front: "A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."
I'm wondering whether he stays in the cult because he enjoys the lifestyle and social life, doesn't know any better or just does it to keep my devout pioneer mum happy.
I 'shun' my parents now, I posted why above. God, it's a f***ked up religion.
Brad L. Wilson
Another problem that exists is the lack of continuity in the application of this policy. Over 3 years before I decided to disassociate myself on many occasions I was both shunned and chatted up at a few gatherings I attended. The average jw knows not what the real policies are often as not, and just seem to muddle along.
And like you all I did was stop going.
A sad sad situation. Keep up the great blog - Brad
Number6
I can tell you my what view my zealous pioneer mum and 'company man' elder dad have on the shunning policy.
They regularly visit and holiday with two of my dfed brothers, who both live far enough away that no one from the home congo* will ever find out. They've done this consistently for over a decade.
I've been out of the bOrg for even longer than that so I thought the shunning policy had been relaxed. Some of the stories I've read are truly heartbreaking. All this for a MLM book publishing company. Jesus wept, it's sickening.
Sadly, my wife and I recently decided to cut ties with my parents because we'd had enough of them poisoning our kids' minds (and ours) with their skewed world view and cult armagenobabble.
* and especially anyone my dad has bollocked on a judicial committee.
"Keep up the great blog"
Yeah, ditto that. I love the gallows humour, just wish you'd post more often.
Andrew
Yeah, we'll be posting more regularly again now!
smmcroberts
So true, Andrew.
When my sister was disfellowshipped her best friend and former room-mate, whom she had pioneered with in rural Minnesota, would no longer speak to her. It was only 25 years later that they spoke again, and only because they were both out of the org by then.
I can also relate to the suicide statistics: I was nearly one myself. I was massively depressed as a Witness contemplating the deaths of my non-Witness family members at the hand of my "loving" god.
Leaving the society and waking from the false hopes was a crushing blow for me; it had been the only place I had ever felt like I "belonged" (though towards the end I realized I didn't fit in there either). With no friends and no way to relate to "the world", I eventually hit rock bottom and attempted suicide.
That landed me in the hospital for a few weeks for injuries, and afterwards they put me in the psych ward for a few more weeks. It was the unconditional love of the nurses there that gradually rekindled the spark of life in me.
Shunning is real, and it is evil. I don't want anyone to have to go through that. That's why I applaud your efforts on JWB.
Carol Ali
I had a friend from the age of 3 years. We were inseparable. Both our parents started studying and we all became JWs. In my 20's I was disfellowshipped. My friend and I weren't allowed contact again. She died in her 40s. I'll never forgive that religion.










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Steve
If the majority of Jehovah’s Witnesses really did believe that, why don’t they sell their homes, quit their jobs and take up the full-time ministry work?
A: Those who are able, do. JWs are not unreasonable.
they would do everything in their power to make sure as many people as possible learned ‘The Truth’, right? After all, Jehovah loves humanity and has installed the Jehovah’s Witnesses to give the rest of us a fighting chance.
A: we do everything within our abilities to teach people who want learn and preach to those that will listen.
2011, we spent 1.7 billion hours preaching and teaching and conducted 8.4 million bible studies through 266 of 266 lands. In other words, we do hour best to help people everywhere.
“I can’t believe you’ve stopped believing to the point where you want to build a house and start a family. How can you even think about raising children in this system? Why on earth would you even consider building a house when you clearly know Armageddon is right around the corner!!”
A: That is relative who loves you very much. Obviously, it is not the first time she has spoken to you about world conditions and how they relate to bible prophecy. So, I bieve there is more to the story than that because many JWs have children, own homes and business.
I think you should try this tactic guys. Next time a Jehovah’s Witness tells you the end is coming and it’s so near, tell them to sell their homes (or if they’re renting, tell them to live in a tent), quit their jobs, and become a full-time minister of Jehovah’s Word.
A: it is not what we say. It is what is stated in the bible. I believe she has shown you enough in the scriptures for you to have made up your mind. The point is, you have a right to accept what you want. It is always your choice. And nobody will condemn you for your decision. Let us just wait and see. Either you will be right and your relative will die of old age or you will be wrong.
Number6
Steve, do your leaders, the GB, truly believe?
If you were in charge of the JWs and you believed the end was just around the corner with 7 billion people's lives at stake would you:
A) Invite world leaders to regular global summits and, by scriptural reasoning and holy spirit, convert as many as possible to the JW faith.
B) Spread the word as quickly as possible, spend money on a worldwide advertising campaign using the internet, TV, print media, etc, until the end.
C) Spread the word with as little urgency as possible, spend as little money as possible by ordering fee-paying volunteers to knock on every single door in the world (that's 7 billion remember?) one by one by one...
I'd go for C) if I wanted to keep the money rolling in for at least another generation - or is it generations now?
The GB owns the largest printing press in the world, which would be fine if everyone still lived in the 19th century.
Why hasn't Jehovah pulled some strings so that the GB owns the largest TV network in the world, or radio network or the entire internet?
Even Jehovah doesn't believe in the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Vinny
There are some ex Jehovah's Witnesses who probably stretch the truth and even lie from time to time. (Just like some active JWs do the same).
But, even the ex-JWs who are 1000 percent truthful, sincere, love God, pay their taxes, help others and more are still SHUNNED by all current JW's and marked as some kind of godless, proud, sinning apostate.
Now how is that fair?
The JW religion did say, in writing, that the end would come in 1914 and then again in 1925. Was Jehovah directing all that?
1914 and 1925 came and went.
They were proven false predictions. Period.
They also created Beth Sarim in California (Google it) and predicted the resurrected ones would be living in the mansion there. Only it never happened.
Beth Sarim came and went.
They also said the end very likely would happen in 1975 and even commended (in the watchtower) witnesses for selling their houses and pioneering because of it.
But 1975 came and went!
They also said (for many decades) that the end would come before the generation born in 1914 would pass away. In fact up until 1995 it was written inside each Awake magazine cover.
Only they then had to change that meaning as well (including the Awake masthead) because that generation CAME AND WENT TOO.
I mean, be honest with yourselves for a minute here people.
Jehovah's Witnesses predicted the end of the world, IN WRITING, numerous times. Not once did they come true. They truly are known for their False Predictions the world over.
JW's are taught that they alone are TRUE Christians and that all other people not JW will soon be destroyed. This is no exaggeration.
JW's will allow their own children TO DIE rather than accept a life saving blood transfusion even in severe medical emergencies. It has already happened THOUSANDS of times!
JW's used to forbid Vaccinations and Organ Transplants (calling a life saving transplant "Cannibalism") for a combined 33 years.
JW's enforce extreme shunning for any member that decides to leave their religion or who commits a sin without showing enough repentance in front of the elders.
Families have been devastated because of these harsh shunning policies. I have literally seen Parents cut off all ties with their children solely because the kid did not want to remain a JW but went in another direction.
Just a few things people need to know.
I was a JW (and elder) for 15 years before leaving because of their blood and fractions policy six years ago. Today I am shunned by all JW's (including the stepson I raised for those 15 years) simply because I left the faith. Amazing but true.
Most JW individuals simply accept everything the Watchtower teaches and says. Just like I did.
Most believe God has chosen the Watchtower Society as his "channel", which provides food from God Himself to their religion and ONLY their religion.
But an honest look at the facts and history of the JW religion shows God has not chosen the Watchtower for anything!
Take a LOOK:
http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020...
ALL FROM THEIR OWN LITERATURE WITH DATES AND PAGES TO SEE FOR YOURSELVES!!!
Pages and pages of mistakes, embarrassments, false predictions, medical disasters, weird science, doctrinal failures and more for over 100 years now.
Obviously "GOD" would not get things wrong like this. Obviously God did not provide bad food like that for their entire history.
But most JW's have no idea about these things. They are told to stay away from anything critical of their religion.
Which is why anybody thinking of becoming one should Examine Examine Examine.
The JW religion is NOT what they like say about themselves. There is NO PROOF ANYWHERE that supports God has been using the WT Society as JW's claim and believe.
For examaple: Was God's spirit with JW's when they said Organ Transplants was a "conscience matter" in 1961?
OR,
Was God"s spirit with WT when they THEN SAID Organ Transplants are same as "Cannibalism" in 1967and forbid them?
Or was God's spirit with the Watchtower Society when they THEN SAID Organ Transplants are NOT the same as cannibalism in 1980 and now allow them?
Was God behind all those changes each time?
Did (((GOD))) get all those things wrong each time?
Did God cause folks TO DIE by listening to the WT Society as the voice of God?
AND THIS IS JUST ONE THING!!!
We can do this same song and dance THOUSANDS OF TIMES.
Just being honest.
Vinny
tim
The Jehovah's Witnesses are a corrupt, mind-controlling cult, simple as that.
And to inform those who are interested:
Candace Conti won her court case... but the JW's are fighting it, vowing to return to court to prove to the world that congregational elders CAN and should rape young girls with no consequences.
Anne Marie DeSoto
Can the Watchtower Prove Their Core “Truths” to Be “True”?
The rank and file of the Watchtower holds certain core beliefs as basic “truths”; as “absolute truths.” If you are truly one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, these “truths” are to be believed without question.
All over the world, devout members of the Watchtower are united in their absolute certainty that they not only “have the truth” but that they are “in the truth,” because they believe that their Watchtower Organization is “the truth”; as if their religion is an absolute “truth,” even though their organization’s teachings and “understandings” have been altered, changed, or completely discarded many times over the course of their more than one-hundred-and-twenty-year history; their discarded “truths” often to be brought back later as “recycled truth,” presented to the current rank and file as “New Light.”
Loyal members of the Watchtower Organization all understand that to remain faithful to the Watchtower…ever respectful, humbly submissive and obedient and loyal without question…is akin to showing humble obedience and loyal faithfulness to Jehovah God, as they believe in an inarguable “fact”: That the Watchtower is “GOD’S organization.” Of this “fact” there can be no doubt in the mind of the individual Jehovah’s Witness…
It is interesting to note, however, that while loyal members of the Watchtower are united in their core Watchtower beliefs…that they trustingly believe as the Watchtower teaches them to believe…as a whole, they appear to be completely oblivious to the glaring fact that not one of the Watchtower’s peculiar and unorthodox teachings are Scriptural! They cannot prove even one of their core Watchtower beliefs to be actual “truth” using God’s Word.
The following is an example of the Watchtower’s “Core Teachings” which are not Biblically sound:
• The Watchtower is the only “true religion,” approved by God
• One must join the Watchtower and believe its teachings and obey their leaders and humbly submit to them and remain loyal to them in order to have any favor from God.
• The leaders of the Watchtower are chosen by God and/or Jesus to lead “God’s People” in the way of “truth.”
• The only way to be right with God is to follow the Watchtower.
• The only way to know God’s truth is to follow the Watchtower.
• The only way to have any hope of gaining eternal life is to follow the Watchtower.
• The Watchtower is “God’s only Channel” to mankind on the earth.
• Only by following the Watchtower can one gain a “proper understanding” of Biblical Truth; only through the Watchtower literature and their teachings from the platform can one attain “accurate knowledge” of God’s Word.
• In order to be “right with God,” one must remain “in good standing” with the Watchtower.
• The Good News about the Christ is NOT for the rank and file of the Watchtower.
• The Watchtower teaches that Jesus was only a “creation” of God; that He is God’s first “creation.” They do not believe that He is “begotten of God,” or that He is of the same divine essence of God. (“Begotten” and “created” is not the same thing.)
• Followers of the Watchtower do not believe that Jesus is God, but that He is a separate, “little god”; a “lesser god” apart from Jehovah God.
• The Watchtower teaches that Jesus is actually the archangel, Michael, who became the perfect man, Jesus. Jesus is not to be worshipped or prayed to, but “True Christians” are to follow His perfect example of perfect obedience to Jehovah God; thus, “True Christians” are “Christ-like” in their humble efforts to follow Christ’s example of serving Him.
• God’s Holy Spirit is not “God” but is His “active force” by which He accomplishes His will. The Holy Spirit of God is an impersonal “it.”
• The Watchtower teaches that there is a “two fold” system of God’s true followers: a “Little Flock,” and the “Great Crowd.”
• The “Great Crowd” believes that they are to live forever on the earth.
• The “Little Flock” is the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation, and only they have “the heavenly hope.”
• Only members of the Watchtower are “True Christians.”
• All members of the Christian Faith who are outside of the Watchtower (those who follow Christ and the core teachings of the Christian Faith) are FALSE Christians, led astray by Satan, and all Christian Churches are “dens of the devil.”
• All Watchtower members have been taught that God/Jesus “examined all Christian Religions” and chose the Watchtower to be “God’s only Channel” by which He dispenses pure truth to all of mankind.
• Watchtower members believe that Christ has already returned, but “invisibly.”
• Members of the Watchtower must not “think for themselves” in regard to “Biblical Truth,” as this would make them guilty of “independent thinking,” which would then show them to be “rebellious,” “haughty,” and “puffed up with pride,” becoming, then, “just like Satan” who was the first “independent thinker.”
• Only the Watchtower Organization properly understands the Bible.
• Watchtower members must not participate in prayer with anyone other than another Watchtower member, for that one is unknowingly praying to Satan.
• To leave the Watchtower is to leave Jehovah God.
• To leave the Watchtower and to refuse to any longer view or believe that they represent God, and to refuse to “repent” and to come back, is akin to “a dog who has returned to its vomit,” and that one is “as good as dead.” That one is marked for “destruction” at God’s hands during His “day of wrath” at Armageddon.
• Anyone who leaves the fold of the Watchtower to then become an orthodox Christian is a “wicked apostate,” now believing and following “lies from Satan.” That one is now a “hater of Jehovah God”; an “enemy of God.”
• Members of the Watchtower claim that they “do not serve the Watchtower Organization,” but that they “serve Jehovah” by way of the organization, as this is Jehovah God’s arrangement.
• Watchtower members do not believe that the Blood of Jesus is “enough.” They do not believe that they can “come to Jesus” for the forgiveness of their sins, or to have eternal life. They believe that they must WORK for the “hope” of their salvation; they do not believe that eternal life is a “free gift.”
• Watchtower members believe that they are the only ones who have any hope of being spared at Armageddon; everyone else outside the Watchtower Organization is “wicked” and will be “destroyed” by Jehovah God at Armageddon.
• Only those in “good standing” with the Watchtower have any hope of surviving Armageddon, or of attaining everlasting life.
• For a Watchtower member to allow a blood transfusion for their spouse or parent or child is to commit a terrible sin against God; it is a deliberate breaking of His law, and they could well be disfellowshipped for it, as this would be considered to be the same as “signing their own death warrant.”
• For a Watchtower member to associate in any way with an ex member (except in cases of serious “Family Business”) is to be “disloyal to Jehovah,” as the ex member who refuses to come back to the Watchtower has shown himself to be an “enemy of God,” “rebellious,” and a “hater of Jehovah.”
We only stop at this point because the list of unorthodox beliefs of those loyal to the Watchtower Organization is simply too long…
If one is truly interested in what God’s Word teaches, one can easily find God’s truth in His Word, for His Word is truth (John 17:17 NWT).
Here are a few thoughts from God’s Word to consider:
• “Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man to whom no salvation belongs.” Psalms 146:3 NWT
• “Every saying of God is refined. He is a shield to those taking refuge in Him. Add nothing to His words, that He may not reprove you, and that you may not have to be proved a liar.” Proverbs 30:5-6 NWT
• In the book of 2 Peter, Christians are warned to not forget the accurate knowledge of Jesus Christ, “For if these things are not present in anyone, he is blind, shutting his eyes to the light…
• “No, it was not by following artfully contrived stories that we acquainted you with the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ…
• “However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you…they will exploit you with counterfeit words…Abandoning the straight path, they have been misled.” 2 Peter 1:8-9, 16, 2 Peter 2:1-3, 15 NWT
• “While they are promising freedom, they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whoever is overcome by another is enslaved by that one.” 2 Peter 2:19 NWT
• Regarding Paul’s letters to Christians, Peter comments: “In them, however, some things are hard to understand, which the untaught and unsteady are twisting as they do also the rest of the scriptures…
• “Be on your guard that you may not be led away with them…and fall from your own steadfastness...but go on growing in the…knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity.” 2 Peter 3:16-17 NWT
Jesus has some things to say that we may want to give heed to:
• “Come to Me, all you who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh you. Take my yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am mild-tempered and lowly in heart, and you will find refreshment for your souls. For my yoke is kindly and My load is light.” Matthew 11: 28-30 NWT
• “No man can come to Me unless the Father, who sent Me, draws him…” John 6:44 NWT
• “I am the way, the truth and the life…” John 14:6 NWT
• “…I am the light of the world. He that follows Me will by no means walk in darkness, but will possess the light of life.” John 8:12 NWT
• “…If you remain in My word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free…therefore, if the Son sets you free, you will be actually free.” John 8:31-32, 36 NWT
• “I am the bread of life…that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die… Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. He that feeds on My flesh and drinks of My blood has everlasting life...” John 6:48,50,53-54 NWT
• “You are searching the scriptures, because you think that by means of them you will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness about Me. And yet you do not want to come to Me that you may have life.” John 5:39-40 NWT
• “How can you believe when you are accepting glory from one another?” John 5:44 NWT
The apostle Paul has words for those Christians who have left the pure truth of Christ:
• “For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge…but seeking to establish their own” (righteousness). Romans 10:2-3 NWT
• “…Those in (union with) Jesus Christ have no condemnation. For…Jesus Christ has set you free from the law of sin and of death.” Romans 8:1-2 NWT
• “You were bought with a price; stop becoming slaves of men. 1 Corinthians 7:23 NWT
• “…We have renounced the underhanded things…not walking with cunning, neither adulterating the Word of God, but by making the truth manifest…” 2 Corinthians 4:2 NWT
• “If, now, the Good News we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious Good News about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through. For we are preaching, not ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord...” 2 Corinthians 4:3-5 NWT
• “Do not go beyond the things written.” 1 Corinthians 4:6 NWT
• “Keep testing whether you are in the (Christian) faith, keep proving what you yourselves are…” 2 Corinthians 13:5 NWT
• “Make sure of all things…” 1 Thessalonians 5:21 NWT
• “…In order that we should no longer be babes, tossed about as by waves and carried hither and thither by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning and contriving error. But speaking the truth, let us by love grow up in all things into Him who is the head, Christ. Ephesians 4:14-15 NWT
• “…They received the Word with the greatest eagerness of mind, examining the scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.” Acts 17:11 NWT
The apostle Paul passionately warns Christians of those who could so quickly remove them from the One who called them “over to another sort of Good News,” that even if an “angel out of heaven” should declare to them as good news something beyond what the apostles declared to them as good news, “let him be accursed.” Galatians 1: 6-8 NWT
Paul goes on to say, “But because of the false brothers brought in quietly, who sneaked in to spy upon our freedom which we have in (union with) Christ Jesus, THAT THEY MIGHT COMPLETELY ENSLAVE US…to these we did not yield by way of submission, no, not for an hour…” Galatians 2:4-5 NWT
“Therefore, as you have accepted Christ Jesus the Lord, go on walking in (union with) Him, rooted and being built up in Him, and being stabilized in the (Christian) faith…
“Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men…” Colossians 2:6-8 NWT
So what, then, are we to conclude?
In this relatively short list of scriptures, one can see the wisdom of “examining the scriptures daily as to whether these things (are) so” in order to be able to properly ascertain as to whether or not any “teachings of man” is really “truth.”
Remember that one is clearly admonished at Hebrews 5:14 to have their “perceptive powers trained THROUGH USE,” and this most certainly involves the practice of “THINKING.”
Paul reasons that as “a babe” one depends upon others to teach them right and wrong; truth from lies, but that once one has become an adult, they put away “the traits of a babe.” They take responsibility for their choices and beliefs. (1 Corinthians 13:11 NWT)
To allow others to “do your thinking for you”…especially when it comes to “accurate knowledge” about God and Jesus…is not being an “adult”; it is not taking responsibility; it is not having ones “perceptive powers trained,” nor is it “making sure of all things.”
Recall that Paul praised the Beoreans for NOT “just swallowing” what was “fed” to them as “truth,” but that they diligently checked out everything to see how it compared with God’s Word. Surely they are an example to follow. (Compare Acts 17:11 NWT)
The listing of the Watchtower’s core beliefs do not match up with the listing of scriptures that follow…and why is that? Could it be that the “great deceiver” of all time has used the Word of God to “twist His truth” in order to deceive unwary ones? Is it possible that the Watchtower Organization is not truly teaching “the truth”??
Let us take a quick look at what the apostle Paul had to say in regard to any religion or group of men who did not teach the truth according to God’s Word, but an altered version of it in order to “trick” unsuspecting ones into believing their “doctrines of men…”
What Paul has to say about following “teachings of men”:
“But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, your minds might be corrupted away from…the Christ…
“For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light.
“It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness…” 2 Corinthians 11:3-4, 13-15, 20 NWT
“For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to (what we are in the) flesh.
“For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning powerfully entrenched things.
“For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God; and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ.” 2 Corinthians 10:3-5 NWT
But what about loyalty to Jehovah God? What about loyalty to the Watchtower?
It is not “going against God” to “make sure of all things,” nor is there any reason to fear that Jehovah God will somehow be “displeased” if one decides to ‘carefully examine the scriptures as to whether these (Watchtower teachings) are so.’ (Acts 17:11 NWT) After all, it is His Word that plainly warns us that we are to “have our perceptive powers trained through use,” and that as we are each personally responsible for the choices that we make, “each of us will render an account.” (Hebrews 5:14; Romans 14:12 NWT)
We have been promised the Holy Spirit as a “helper”:
We have been promised “the helper,” that is, Jesus has promised us that the Holy Spirit will be there to help us and to “guide us into all truth.” (John 16:13 NWT) (See also Matthew 7:9; Luke 11:13 NWT)
With the promise of the Holy Spirit, “the helper,” to “guide us into all truth” being made available to us if we only prayerfully ask God for it, we can trust that we will be able to understand God’s Word, no longer feeling that we need to depend upon others to teach us…
Regarding the guidance of the Holy Spirit, 1 John 2: 26-27 tells us:
“These things I say to you about those who are trying to mislead you.
“And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to be teaching you, but, as the anointing from Him is teaching you about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught you, remain in Him.”
Yes, we cannot Biblically claim that we are not responsible for our religious beliefs simply because we chose to believe an “authority” who claimed to know better than we, no, but God holds each of us responsible for our own actions.
We have God’s Word; we have the promise of the Holy Spirit; we have our brain; we have the scriptural admonitions to “think,” and to “examine the scriptures as to whether these things (are) so,” and to “make sure of all things,” and we have already seen several warnings in God’s Word as to how easily one can be “deceived,” so there is really no reason to fear God’s displeasure in following the instructions found in His Word. (See Romans 14:12; Hebrews 5:14; Acts 17:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:21 NWT)
If we truly love our heavenly Father, and if we really are “lovers of truth,” and if we truly believe that God’s Word “is truth,” we will want to give it more weight than any “teachings of men” in considering any doctrinal truth of any religion that claims to teach the Word of God; God’s Word should always be our final “Spiritual Authority.” After all, did not both God and Jesus point mankind to His Word? (See John 17:17 NWT)
As for God’s love for His followers, the apostle Paul tells us:
“For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God’s love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8: 38-39 NWT
Let us consider one last word of comfort from God’s Word…
“We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.” 1 John 5:19-20 KJV
So can the Watchtower prove any of their unorthodox core teachings to be true according to the Word of God? No, they cannot. Not even one…
Rob Valkeneers
Interesting question, but not easy to answer. It's possible to believe in something, but act in an entirely different way.
See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
Bonnie
I was in for 40 years. As far back as I can remember (about 1960) the emphasis has always been on SELF SACRIFICE. I sacrificed 40 years of my life, 26 years in a horrible marriage to my oh so wonderfully abusive Ministerial Servant husband, attendance at my only son's wedding, all the friends I ever had, my mother, my sister, my brother, my nieces and my nephews. Before you know it, you've sacrificed your entire LIFE waiting for the "new system" which as I recall has been "just around the corner" since 1960 as well, for me anyway... What a bunch of crap. The real tragedy is that people stay in because of what they would lose by leaving. Pretty much everyone and everything. The old farts in Brooklyn that make up this crap as they go along know this and don't care that they destroy people's lives. I hate the Watchtower Society for all I sacrificed for this horribly destructive cult. I hope I live to be 84 years old. That way, I can say they only stole HALF my life from me.
Sally
That zealot mentality was alive and well in the early 70s, but after that frenzy died down a lot of JWs lost that urgency. However, they still put off living their lives to the fullest because "the end is near."
Pete
Many gave up everything: chilren, education, career, marriage, family, friends, tradition, holidays, sex, familial affection and connections,music tastes,  youth, beliefs,houses,money,fame, health to 'serve Jehovah'. The extent of mind control continues, although the WTBS has softened on some fronts, the internal message and pressure is still to sacrifice everything for the preaching effort. 
Sadly, the sincerest of the mislead sheep are influenced by this, lead astray and give their 'first fruits to Jehovah', if they ever have an awakening to this, they find themselves completely destitute after they are 'shunned'.
The J.W.'s often expect people to self destruct after leaving by suicide or drugs (etc.). It is no surprise to me to see the sad results, I lived through it and experienced the desolation of losing most of those things, overnight. 
If some witnesses don't sacrifice all those things, then it is a good thing and it may be possible that they may not be entirely lost to this destructive cult.
Lacy
I think some of them learned their lesson in the seventies. Before 1975, so many sold their houses, put off having kids, and used all their retirement savings. Look how that turned out. I knew quite a few JWs I grew up with who had parents who were in their 40s when they had them. They kept saying Armageddon was right around the corner so they were going to wait have kids and 20 years into their marriage still no New System and they missed out on having children for decades. For some couples, this stupid belief robbed them entirely of their chance for kids. But I'm sure the Society doesn't care they stole this blessing from people. After all, if they continue believing and do more than 10 hours of field service a month (that was the US national average when I was still a JW 5 years ago), then they might have a shot of making it to Paradise alive. If they die first, there is always the resurrection. Oops. That won't work. They teach that Jesus' comment about the resurrected being like angels means they won't be able to procreate or marry. Well, who needs to have kids? Not like God intended for us to have them.
Steve
The variety of levels that members of the Witnesses believe varies just as much as other religions. Some believe every word the Watchtower says, and others follow the basic principles as their entire social life is wrapped up in the religion. Many do not believe every word, but when ones entire family is in the religion, for some it makes no point to make waves.
After all, living by the moral code of the Witness isn't exactly bad for you. Just like any religion, there are those that take the morality and social aspects to heart yet privately go through the motions when it comes to the dogma.
Andrew
I disagree, sorry to say. While there are some good aspects of the JW moral code, those bits are not JW exclusive. i.e. we already know that killing is bad. There are also bad bits of the so-called moral code that includes homophobia, shunning, rejecting certain medical treatments, 'using the rod' to discipline children, staying with an abusive partner, the psychological abuse of being told you are being watched all the time... I could go on.
Steve
I'm no Witness apologist, and am an ex-bethelite and was a Ministerial servant, and have been out for about 5 years. The Witneses are not active and do not put money toward anti-gay movements, and the shunning that happens, while insane, is known for most when they enter. the exception are those raised witnesses, and as one, i understand the issues quite well. But the question was on actual belief in the teachings, and my answer is simply, for most, no. Most are there for the morals (whether one agrees with them or not) and the social structure. Like any cult, the longer one stays in, the harder it is to leave, and many simply choose not to expend the energy and hardship to leave.
Andrew
Yeah, I understand what you mean Steve. :-)











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Ella
I left the religion close to nine years ago. I too never understood how when natural disasters hit, they would announce how many JW's were affected and how they had marched in to help them but that you never heard about them reaching out to non JW's in the area. I remember asking my Mom when I was young about it and she basically said that we choose to look after our own but that the rest weren't worthy of help because they didn't believe what we believed. She went as far as to say if they hadn't died during that natural disaster, most would die at Armageddon anyway.
I do remember people coming to the door looking for charitable donations to the Kidney Foundation, Cancer Foundation etc. and somtimes Mom would give them some money but not before they had to stand there and here a whole sermon as to how God would rid the problem entirely in the New World. They always left with a tract, magazine or book. She would never just give them the money and let them be on their way.
And as for blood tranfusions, I can't believe that JW's accept every part of the blood now separately but mix it all together and call it "whole blood" and it's wrong. It's just so twisted and hypocritical. If blood is ao sacred then just don't touch it, but to agree to different concoctions, is ridiculous. They'll take to save their lives but never donate back to save other's lives.
Looking back I now see that the JW faith just breeds selfish, self absorbed, narrow minded people. I'm so glad to be out. A light bulb went on for me within months of leaving.
Jodie
We are all imperfect. No person on this earth, regardless if they are a JW or not, is going to do the right thing, 100% of the time. This is exactly why Chris Jesus died for us. Whether you are a JW or not, at the end of the day, we are all sinners. And forgiveness is hard, but it's something that God wants us to do, and through Christ Jesus, he grants us this forgiveness. I am one of Jw's and I personally have a very heartfelt love of animals. I volunteer my time to Jehovah God, to animal welfare associations, and I also run charity events to support the care of rescued animals. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But I do believe Jehovah God will one day rectify the injustice in this world, and it will be worth the wait! Hang in there everyone. xx
Steve
Hi Jodie,
I'm not a sinner.
But I am an animal advocate like you. My wife and I used to run a shelter for rescued cats.
I was a vegetarian when I became a JW, but the elders had me give it up because "Jehovah knows better what we need to eat." [Once free of them I went back to vegetarianism, and today I'm a vegan.]
Did you know that the WT used to take a stand against vivisection? But in 1990 they changed their tune and said that it was okay to abuse animals in this way until the new order straightens everything out. The poor animals in the meantime! (And no resurrection for them, so the injustices done to them will never be rectified.)
Elizabeth
This site is so helpful!! My Aunt got "brainwashed"-as we say in my family- when she went away to college and has been a JW ever since. Shockingly her children didn't go away to college. But anyways- we've always wondered about charitable giving among the JWs, because while other members of the family help each other out in times of need, whether it be with money or helping in some other way, they never lend a hand, we thought it was because we're not JWs. But apparently they don't help each other either- my Aunt's in-laws are getting on in years and she, her husband and his siblings are all set to send them off to a nursing home. BIG SIN in my family- you take care of your own- nursing homes are for people without family to care for them.
Erica
You are making so much sense I kinda wanna throw myself off a bridge. Luckily I'm in my pjs and it's chilly out there - plus I wouldn't be sure where to go to jump. So I'll stay here in my warm little bed and keep reading. For whatever it's worth, I pioneered for a dozen years, learned Spanish to "help" more people and M now df'd. I just totally feel ya Andrew
Andrew
Yes, Erica! You stay cosy inside and try to make up for all those early Saturday morning ministry days. *shudder* I too used to be a regular pioneer and was learning Russian... now not a day goes by that I am not happy to be free from that cult.
kenneth
The damned JW's donate millions to their WTBTS, not realizing that almost all this money is going to be dumped into the construction of the new Warwick "resort" for old men, swimming pools and tennis courts included.
Melanie
I remember there was this one woman in our hall, let's call her Leah. She was married to a worldly guy and after a while began to come to meetings less often. I was friends with her, although she was older than me, around 40 to my early 20's. When I finally heard from her one day, she informed me that she was leaving her abusive husband. She also was getting into trouble with the Elders for something... I can't remember what... probably for leaving her husband. Anyway, she was moving out and she needed help. The brothers refused to help her because she was in their bad books, and my kingdom hall was in a very wealthy area... at least one of the Elders was a millionaire. She had nothing, no furniture, no plates or anything. Well my parents and I combed their entire house looking for extras. We came up with quite a lot of stuff for her to build a new life with.
The JW's gave her nothing but judgement and ostrasization and she ended up leaving with a bitter taste in her mouth. How sad, if they had helped her it would have shown love and that would have strengthened her in a very scary time. I can't remember how many times I heard from the platform about how "selfish, evil, bad, untrustworthy, etc." worldy people are, but yet, here were my non-jw parents, helping a total stranger, not even one who was a "sister" to them. But just helping because someone needed it!!! Also, I will never forget their reaction. They couldn't believe that the JW's wouldn't help her. It was such a bad witness to my parents and I felt so embarrassed for my "religion," and even I was getting those feelings of doubt. So this was one little ping in my armor that eventually lead to my leaving.
Hypocrates!!
Karen
Hi all, I am from the Caribbean island of Trinidad & Tobago (Trinidad to be exact). I am not a JW and have never been one but I do know quite a bit about them as I have been studying them for the past 5 years or so. I've read various testimonies of ex-Jw's including Danny Haszard's. (I am a born-again christian and I know the Lord has given me a heart to research this deceptive cult and reach out to these people with the love of Christ). I'm not ususally into blogs and so forth but I do respect this blog as it allows persons of various belief systems to share their thoughts, experiences and feelings.
With regard to this blog on charity, I have noticed that JW's are not keen on doing charitable works unless it may involve assisting a "brother". I have found their lack of love so disturbing. For instance, a natural disaster may take place in a country where many persons have lost their homes and even lives and all these JW's would say is that they are saddened for any "brothers" that may have lost anything. If they follow bible principle, they need to apply the scripture of Matthew 25:35 "I was hungry and you fed me, I was thirsty and you gave me drink". The context of this scripture does not apply to just a "brother" but any person.
As rightly pointed out by Andrew - when I'm physically hungry, you don't try to satisfy my hunger with a track or spiritual talk. Even Jesus fed people when they were hungry (He fed the multitude with 5 loaves and 2 fish).
But this is just another example of the scriptures being twisted or taken out of context to conform to the WTS belief.
Dyllen
When you've done something right, anyone would think you've done nothing at all! :)
Sally
The discouragement, if not condemnation, of charitable giving was one of the things that always embarrassed me about being a JW. It bothered my conscience! Once I got out I was broke, but I gave what I could to UNICEF, the Red Cross, the Girl Scouts, the ASPCA, and others. Finally, finally I could join in and make at least a little difference.
JWs teach that if you're not a JW you don't care about the terrible things that are happening in the world. You want things to continue just as they are. Phooey! You can't tell me that lavishly refurbishing hotels in Brooklyn benefits anyone but the people who live there. That's how they used your money.
Christian Sparlock Freedom
Good article
Steve
The most amazing thing I found when I left was that the world was not nearly as evil as we believed as a Witness. Not every living creature outside the hallowed walls of the Kingdom Hall was a devil worshiping antichrist hellbent on tricking me out of the truth. People were actually good, they wanted to help others, they gave to charity, and if I actually needed something, people I had known for only a matter of months would be there to help.
Is there greed? Sure. Lying? Sure? Are there some bad people? Of course. But no more so outside the organization as there were inside. I knew more adulterous spouses inside than outside. There was more drama, more backstabbing, more bullshit inside the organization that I can find in the national political arena (and I'm a political journalist now.)
I think this indoctrination that the rest of the world is simply evil is the most disturbing aspect of the way I was raised, and I cringe knowing that not only did I believe it, but I stood in front of congregations and went door-to-door espousing that nonsense.
Lacy
I knew a widowed woman in my congregation when I was younger who was in desperate need of help. She could only find a part-time job and with her additional free time, she chose to pioneer. By WT standards, she was a "spiritual" person in good standing. Did the congregation and elders come to this spiritual sister's aid when her trailer was condemned as unsafe and the county evicted her from it. The land was still hers so she pitched a tent and lived in a tent for months until she could get state aid. Apparently, the congregation forgot about James statement that taking care of orphans and widows was a form of worship. Yet everyone dished out the money when the call for both a new KH and new Assembly Hall came from the stage.
AK MCGRATH
What I find hypocritical is that JW's CAN feed the animals, etc. I wrote about this on JWN. I am a caregiver and I look after an older person.
One day something hit me. As we were watching the squirrel take and eat the peanuts I left out for him, as well as the birds getting their share of bird seed, how screwed up is the view of JW's that is is OK to feed Jehovah's animal kingdom, but how DARE we show love and assist ones made in HIS image.
Since leaving the Org., I have been happy to give money to those who I come across and seem needy. Whether they use it for the intended purpose of buying food or not is up to them. I am hopeful they will purchase a meal somewhere. If they do not, that is between them and God. I only know I feel right by trying to help someone.
Afterall, doesn't James say, if one knows what is right to do, yet does not do it, it is a sin for him"? What about Jesus' commandment to love one another, as he loved us? Did Jesus not provide fishes for a multitude? Did he not help the sick?
To justify NOT helping your fellow man when he is right in front of you is like walking on the other side of the street. So much for being the good Samaritan. It isn't Christ-like at all, and it certainly doesn't show love. What that attitude displays IS self-righteousness , contempt for the lowly one and down right pathetic.
I think God is very displeased with a people who take on his name, yet show a lack of TRUE love for their fellow man. Whoa to them!
Danny Haszard
My story on Watchtower family scam.
I Danny Haszard gave all my money to the Watchtower building fund during my youth when I was making big bucks in the construction trade union.I did so because they lied to me that I would never need it for my retirement.Well I am 50 years old and I do need all my money back now that it's 2012 and the 'end of the world' is overdue.
The Watchtower religious racket also got all my grandfather's and my father's savings.
The Watchtower one year before the foretold end of the world 1975,was a time that I remember they were ordering the rank and file JW followers to liquidate their assets and go all out for the Kingdom of God.
The late 1960's was also a time period that Brooklyn H.Q. was really crying poor mouth ( JW children were sending in their piggy banks {Jehovah's pennies} i was giving them my paper route and egg money from my 20 hens).
I alone have been extorted tens of thousands of dollars of my life savings by the greedy charlatans as an adult.
Get this! My elderly Grandfather Roger Haszard and my Grandmother Ruth Haszard are living in Largo Florida USA circa 1987,(now deceased).
We get an emergency conference call from my uncle Wallace on 'what are we going do do with our aging patriarch as they are becoming helpless and are in need of a part-time nurse'.
My grandfather is busted as he gave all his assets to the Watchtower and his estate is all going to the Watchtower when they die.
There is no emergency cash to free up so the family now has pitch in to pay for their care.
The Watchtower has occasional hypocritical articles on caring for our elderly,they don't reveal how countless family's get into this bind on account of their wicked advice.
--
*tell the truth don't be afraid*-- Danny Haszard FMI danny haszard(dot)com
Merri-Ella
Danny,
I've gone to your site and recognized the Kingdom Hall. You're from Bangor, Maine. I went to that hall as well. I grew up in Pittsfield, which built their hall the same year as Bangor. I was 5 at the time. I didn't move to Bangor until 2005. I left the religion early 2007. But I was wondering, how would I get in contact with you?
smmcroberts
Sometimes they don't even help fellow Witnesses.
I relate a personal story somewhere on my site about Violet: an elderly sister in rural Minnesota who had recently been widowed. Her social worker contacted our Ministerial Servant about helping to put skirting on her trailer home (skirting keeps out the bitter cold winter winds we have here.) The govt would supply the skirting if the JWs would supply the labor. The social worker had heard about how the Witnesses are so willing to help, so thought this wouldn't be a problem.
I heard about all of this from Violet as I gave her a ride to and from the KH for all the meetings. She was dirt-poor but was spending what little she had to supply treats to the loving brothers who would be showing up to help her on the appointed day.
But I was getting worried; I hadn't heard anything about this from the MS. So I went to an elder and detailed the situation to him. He had heard of it; evidently the MS and the elders had discussed it and had decided to do nothing because "she has worldly sons who could help her." But they didn't convey this back to Violet. The elder must've seen the shock and disappointment on my face, because he said, "If it bothers you, you should go and help out."
I didn't have the heart to break the news to Violet. She had already bought all the food. Her face would light up every time she talked about how all the brothers would be coming to help her and how her worldly sons would "get such a good witness".
The day came. She had put out her one nice tablecloth over her dilapidated kitchen table. It was loaded with food and plates. She was gazing out the window expectantly. One of her sons showed up, and together we nailed up the skirting all around her trailer. When we went back inside there were tears in her eyes when she said, "No one else is coming, are they?"
There are tears in my eyes even now.
Sonya Maree Wolf
Oh my GOD. What the F*&K? Sorry, but it needed a WTF response. Good on you for helping. SHAME SHAME SHAME on them for not helping.











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James
There should be more podcasts like this one. Succinctly fending off the Watchtower's ridiculous teachings and hypocrisy is critical to free-thinking. If this can be skillfully done without anger, that's good. If it can be done with humor, that's great. Keep up the good work!
Number6
Who was channeling Stephen Merchant?
"Quick, call out Jehovah's name" ahahahah :D
Andrew
Glad you liked it, Number6!
Arno
16 seconds of mirth :) sounds promising. [mind-flash] always wondered if the GB ever laughed...at themselves? ;) I'm standing right behind you guys in this endeavor and enjoy every "installment" when the notification happens in my inbox...
Aureus
You guys sound like a fun pair.
Sonya Maree Wolf
Yeah, I choke on those words too...










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niki
I called on Jehovahs name when I was nine years old and I was at a kingdom hall being molested..didn't seem to work. It happened for a year.
Thanks Jehovah your the best.
xoxo
NikI Pacheco
Ajax Ontario
Dalton Riley
Hey guys I'm not a wittness but I have a question I'm in love and I'm in 7th graded but the girl I love is a JW I staid awake for 7hr researching her religion. I'm a babtist and she says we will haft to wait untill she is 18 but I want to know if there is a way we could date. I even made a song and a poem for he. HELP ME!!!!!!!!
Loren.
Yeah load of old sick.. As in regurgitated experience- as in that is all that’s on offer at the kh.
A man I admired v much and love- told me about this calling out Jah’s name to save him from nightmares, I thought it was original, a little quirky, but now I see it’s so so scripted, bloody scripted like every emotion the jws allowed their inmates to feel.
Set our people free you oppressors.
Its all bloody fake love bombing.
Asia Nealy
If someone screamed out Jehovah as I was attacking them I think I would of just added more force
derangedjdub
I would either start laughing or ... (mental gymnastics) Oh this persons' schizophrenic...and leave them alone... OH LOOK IT WORKS.. LMAO
Bonnie
Number6 - I thought that was BEETLEJUICE... lol
Ravyn Guiliani
Good point that Satan must have used Jehovah's name atleast once. BTW Jesus never did. Not even once. Not even in his "Model Prayer" when he mentioned the "name" be praised. I wonder why?
Number6
If you say his name three times in front of a mirror he actually appears. Oh wait, no, that's Candyman.
Anyway, seems like Jehovah is quite picky about who he saves, and which prayers he answers.
I remember so many stories I heard as a kid in the 70s about the poor Malawian JWs, all those stories of torture and rape, and thinking 'why don't they just call out the name Jehovah? Why doesn't he save them?'
Which was confusing because I was always bombarded with these 'wonderful experiences' where, eg, my uncle was knocking on doors and felt a bit queasy from hunger, so called out to Jehovah, and at the next door someone offered him a whole cooked chicken! Jehovah FTW!!!11!
I guess it depends what country you're in when you make that call:
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchto...
Danny Haszard
Jehovah's Witnesses are a superstitious group,no matter how much they deny it.-Danny Haszard
smmcroberts
Hey Andrew, this is great advice! I never actually heard of this self-defense tactic when I was a JW. But I intend to start using it the next time I'm attacked. Of course I'll use biblegod's correct pronunciation "Yahweh" to play it safe. I don't want the big guy upstairs tapping his foot saying "Who? Who are you calling?"
If I'm an attacker and my victim starts shouting out somebody's name with conviction (as if they're right around the corner with baseball-bat in hand) I just might run away on the off chance that this Yahweh fellow might be bigger than me. Of course if I happen to know who Yahweh is I'm more likely to burst out laughing, which may give my victim a chance to escape as I'm ROFLAO.
Brinjen
Yeah... that whole 'Satan is attacking you because you're one of Jehovah's servants' but at the same time if you use his name he'll leave you alone... maybe 'Jehovah' is the password to his internet banking... or the name of his parole officer... would make more sense anyway.
I do recall parallels between the WT's advice with the worldly suggestions on what to do if you are attacked... which in part is often of course, scream and draw as much attention to your attacker as possible. It kinda feels now (in hindsight) they simply repeat the advice that's current, general knowledge with the public at large... add their little snippets, find a few scriptures that can sound relevant and Bob's your uncle... there's an article ready for printing.
Afather
As a very young boy standing up to the grade school administration over my refusal to salute the flag I yelled out "Jehovah please help me." I was spared the punishments they were threatening(expulsion) but I would not say it was miraculous. It was only a test of my indoctrinated convictions.
As a very young girl, my daughter called out "Jehovah please help me" as she would suffer the repeated sexual abuse at the hands of a congregation Elder. In no way did she ever receive Divine intervention or help as the abuse continued for several years until she matured and built the confidence in herself to disclose the abuse to me and the authorities.










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Taylor
My parents got a divorce when I was 13 and my dad started dating a Jehovah's Witness. The rest of my entire family were just general Christians and freaked out when they realized he was studying with her. I was so confused, because I was always so close to my dad and everyone was saying horrible things about him being in a cult. I was so scared, but my dad assured me that what he was doing was really the truth and I started to believe everything he was telling me. I starting going to meetings and participating in their bible studies, but the whole time I was hurting. My father winded up marrying this woman and she became my stepmother. My dad changed into a completely different person. All he would ever talk about was things at The Kingdom Hall. Nothing else seems to matter. I lost my father. I no longer looked forward to birthdays or any holidays for that matter because they were supposedly of the devil. I was ignored because I hated going after awhile because they made it seem like everything and everyone is evil except them. I started struggling in high school and my dad didn't think twice about letting me drop-out, because in this so-called religions eyes high education isn't important. Then, when I was 17 I got my first boyfriend because I needed love from somebody and my father truly despised him and would basicaly force us with bible studies every time he would come over. I tried again to be more interested in the meetings and actually started to enjoy them and felt like I was really learning and finding "appropriate friends." there. I told my dad that I wanted to go door to door and he was so proud of me. I went once and then I got called into the elders office one day and they told me I couldn't go out anymore. My dad seemed upset and confused and asked why. They said that my boyfriend was a bad association and I can't be out talking to others if I'm with him. I was extremely irate. Of course the only person I could depend on was my boyfriend at the time. We winded-up having sex and my dad and step-mom found out and kicked me out. At this time my mother lived in Florida so I had to stay with my grandparents. I never felt so low in my life. I was more than depressed and even suicidal at times. Then, five years ago, i moved to Florida with my mom and now I here from my father about once every three months. If I call and my step-mom is there she will say she'll tell my dad but never does. In conclusion, this CULT ruined my life. (This was really long, but I cut a lot out actually.)
merline
these people..hav very good books that talk about what the Bible really teaches and also getting to know Jehovah...and obe can borrow some very valuable truths if not all and their book like..questions young pple ask has really helped me to understand things like sexual sins ,true love,marriage inshort they have very helpfil simplfied advice..is there anything wrong with with borrowing selectively some of these teachings from them..or using their books like getting to know about Jehova because they dont teach anything bad about God
William Huget
The WT is a false prophet, false teacher. They teach some things from the Bible correctly, but the essential, salvific doctrinal truths about God and salvation are distorted in a heretical way. This is not the true group and their views on God and Christ are very unbiblical. Show some discernment and avoid them.
Steve
Hi Merline,
In principle there's nothing wrong with taking each individual teaching and evaluating it on its own individual merit. For instance, many of their criticisms regarding other religions are spot-on (e.g. the logical conclusion that a loving god would never torture people for eternity in hell-fire.) They are also right about the pagan origins of many religious ideas and practices.
However, they cast a blind eye on where they are guilty of such things themselves (e.g. the whole idea of a dying and resurrected god-man, the notion of Satan, etc. all have pagan origins. And a loving god wouldn't kill nearly everyone at Armageddon.)
What they call "sexual sins" are often not sins at all, and were practiced by the "great men" of the Bible (please see: http://www.jehovahswitnessblog.... Other things they condemn, such as masturbation and oral sex, are not condemned (or even mentioned) in the Bible. So they have added their own laws, which is something the Bible forbids, and the very thing Jesus supposedly criticized the Pharisees for doing. Also, these articles are written by a bunch of old men shut up in a male-dominated "dormitory" ("Bethel") These are men who have no training or expertise in sociology, sexology, the health sciences, or psychology. In fact they discourage education. Do you think it's wise to turn to them for advice on how to live your life out in the real world?
Finally, it's not true
that "they don't teach anything bad about God." They teach that he wants people to die rather than have life-saving medical procedures. They teach that God wants us to shun our friends and family members if they ever come to disagree with the Watchtower. They teach that he's about to kill nearly seven billion people in horrible ways.
So, yes: there are some truths in the morass of the WT publications. But selecting them would be very much like berry-picking in a mine field.
Lacy
I had a personal experience with Information Control. Well, as a former JW I had experience with all the controls, but one especially stands out in my mind. I decided I wanted to learn more about the other religions of the world. 1 Cor. 9:19-23 says Paul became all things to those he ministered to. To the Jews, became like a Jew, to the weak, as weak, etc. To me, it seemed smart to understand the householders' beliefs so I could give a stronger witness in service and combat their objections. So I made a questionnaire of around 20 issues (trinity, hell, etc) and made a list of all the religions I could and decided to compare everyone's beliefs. If I knew people of certain religions, I gave it to them to fill out. Others I took a chance and mailed them to ministers with a letter asking for their help and a few responded. For the rest, I used the library to read books about them. I was very proud of my research. Then the elders found out about it. One stopped letting me associate with his daughter. I was asked to meet with some elders for a "shepherding call". This in a congregation that was very lax about them. The elders flat out told me that I should not be doing that kind of research. That anything I want to know about other religions has been already researched by the Society and put in print in the WT and the Mankind's Search for God book. They scared me so much that I abandoned the whole project and got rid of it all. Ironic part was that I thought everything the other religions believed was absurd or wrong so it made my faith in the Organization stronger not weaker. In the end, it was the elders and my loss of faith in them and not the religion that made me start questioning things. I guess that situation really had them using all four forms of control.
andy
funny how side issues cause you to doubt they are truth and this is exactly the same as me. i was happy to defend the witnesses until they made me a scape goat for their judicial committee then i had the reason to research issues and uncover more and more till im now at the point of telling my elder dad stuff (to which he is mostly ignoring from the lack of replys) and fighting the local elders and bethel over holding records on me till i die which is becoming quite interesting as next step shortly will be taking the matter further with the data protection commissioner of the UK.
Andrew
Andy, the sad fact is that most JWs won't listen to reason until something pushes them to look deeper into it themselves. I wish I could give every JW that push - I have had countless discussions with my JW wife, but at the end of the day, she has to experience that mindset change herself to combat the cult mind control.
Trudy Zelenka
Brother Andrew, the scriptures are what helped me see that the governing body are not teaching truth. Here is a scripture for example: Matthew 12:50, Jesus said, "Anyone who does the will of my heavenly father is the same my brother, sister and my mother." And about that heavenly door doctrine> Give her this scripture: Matthew 7:7
[ Keep Asking, Searching, Knocking ] “Keep asking, and it will be given to you. Keep searching, and you will find. Keep knocking, and the door will be opened to you." Ask her if she has been asking and seeking. Show her this scripture: John 10:9
I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved" And remind her that the Watchtower said that door was closed in the year 1913. Wouldn't that mean that no one living after 1935 could be saved? Help her to use her mind..and the scriptures ate the key.
Sharon Lee Murray
These are scriptures that helped me climb out of the lions mouth. Ps146:3, Jer17:5, Ac5:29, ALL of Lu21:8. They stop at the word AND, here's why, AND they are saying the end is near, DO NOT FOLLOW AFTER THEM! For yourself to be armed, look up jw's and cults, jw's and scandals, and jw's and the occult. THAT is what your wife's beliefs. The wts is preaching a different gospel. Joh6:48-59. Jesus also said I AM THE WAY THE LIGHT AND THE TRUTH<no a="" are="" ask="" away="" be="" belongs...does="" bible="" bunch="" can="" comes="" congregations!="" continue="" days="" does="" earthling="" except="" father="" following="" from="" get="" god="" god?="" her="" her,="" hiding="" how="" if="" in="" interested="" is="" it="" jesus="" jesus'?="" know="" last="" man="" me.="" men="" no="" not="" of="" old="" one="" or="" pedophiles="" really="" religion="" salvation="" say="" says="" says,="" she="" she's="" stay="" steps="" that="" the="" there="" thru="" to="" too="" true="" want="" what="" who="" whom="" would=""></no>
Sharon Lee Murray
Give her these scriptures to read, Ps146:3 Jer17:5 Ac5:29 and ALL of Lu21:8. Ask her if she believes the bible is the word of God? When she says yes, ask her why these warnings and not a verse stating in the last days, one church would be the spokesman for God on earth. No it says stay away from man! The way to the Father is Jesus, not the gb. I hope this helps.
GCS7000
Lacy, thanks for sharing your experience. Sadly, yours was not a rare occurance among JWs. Sometimes it takes getting slapped (if only figuratively) for all the pieces to fall into place. With that thought in mind, check out the classic movie Born Yesterday, starring Judy Holliday and Williams Holden. You'll love it!
hannah
The witnesses are an cultic group and an occult.anyone who is controlling and judgemental and they are in the same mind frame at all times a and would allow there kids to needlessly die and not go to school and control there every move and not be allowed to make there own decisions are occultic and wrong.they are terrible. They cheat on there spouses and lie and think they are better than there Jehovah and can never admit they are wrong
Ryan McReynolds
I use to attend Kingdom Hall when I was 10 years old with my aunt and cousin (my aunt was baptized in 1989 and my cousin in 1993, but I thank God I was never baptized into the JW religion even though I use to believe loads of their doctrines and my parents eventually stopped letting me go to Kingdom Hall).
But yeah ask me anything about the believes of that religion and I can tell you what they believe and how much of it goes against scripture itself.
In fact it is noted if you were to read the Bible itself on a deserted island with absolutely no Watchtower literature, you would never become a Jehovah's Witness to begin with.
How many times did the Watchtower and it's leaders announce when Armageddon was coming and the world was ending and we are still here?
The world was to end in 1914, didn't happen, ok 1915 well that did not happen, Charles Taze Russell died in 1916 but his next prediction of 1918 also failed.
1925 the year of birth of my paternal grandfather was to be the beginning of paradise on earth, farmers do not have to plant crops at all, and any witness farmer who did was looked down upon.
Well 1925 failed, World War II came and Judge Rutherford who secretly supported Hitler while pretending to oppose him, said WWII would have no winning side but it would end with Armageddon, well World War II ended with the allies kicking maximum butt.
Rutherford on the other hand died in 1942 so he did not live to see he was wrong.
Next there was Nathan Knorr in charge as President of The Watchtower and I remember reading about him in the Watchtower Magazines as Brother Knorr and reading about what a good man he was, well that's what the Watchtower wants you to think but in reality he was vicious.
Well Nathan Knorr along with his Vice President Fred Franz (whom was President of Watchtower when I went to Kingdom Hall) said Armageddon was coming in 1975, well after Armageddon failed to come, Knorr who died in 1977 took a backseat and Franz who took over as President in 1977 lied claiming he never said Armageddon was coming in 1975 but only that it might but anyone who attended the meetings knew what they were taught and some people did leave because of the failure while others still stayed.
I am glad I am a Christian and not a Jehovah's Witness (which claims to be the only true Christians but we know the real truth).
Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the light and not some organization or some building.
merline
UOh yeahr right i need to avoid them at all cost ..their books and all their publications its best not to have anything to do with cults ..for guidance the Bible has answers to all..Their teachings and their Bible have been peddled to suit their own doctrines..The purpose of sharing God's truth is not to prosper ourselves but to profit others..its crystal clear that this group is cultic..poor people .e its best to stay away from the organization because their aim isnot to grow its pple by Gods truth but to its served by personal interests plus anyone who refuses the exaltation of Jesus as king..is not even worth giving an ear..we only know God as our heavenly father thru our faith in JESUS..also denying the existence of the Holy Trinity is unbelievable..grave and satanic..satan also altered Gods word to match his selfish pursuits when tempting Jesus..lets pray for those trying to get out of the cult that they find a.place to hold as they pull themselves out of this swampy trap.
William Huget
The WT has changed their understanding of 1914 about 20 times (I have a chart that documents this from their literature). They are also making minor changes now and will have to make a major change soon. This will be called 'New Light' TM, but it is actually fallible men groping in the dark, not directed by God. The history of 1914 and necessity of changing understanding because they are so wrong is well documented by counter-cult ministries, but hidden from JWs who cannot think for themselves.
William Huget
The Bible is not wrong, but the WT does translate and interpret it wrong. They are wrong on their dates and secular sources are right. Their logic and research is faulty, we agree, but there are better, biblical explanations that will stand up to scrutiny. There is also pseudo-science and faulty atheistic/secular thinking. If the Bible is true on a point, it is not circular to state the truth from the Bible. No one is immune to confirmation bias. The apostates and the JWs both are wrong in different ways. There is truth in the middle (JWs are right about some vs all things; atheists/materialists can be right about somethings, but wrong about spiritual issues/revelation that will stand up to reason).
Steve
William,
" If the Bible is true on a point, it is not circular to state the truth from the Bible."
I agree. (In fact I agree with everything you said except the last part of your last sentence.) It's so refreshing to hear something other than the Watchtower verbiage that Mike has been spewing forth here ad nauseum!
What I was referring to as circular reasoning was Mike's use of the "70 years of captivity mentioned in the Bible" as proving the 607 BCE date. In this instance he's using the source of his belief to try to prove his belief.
Steve
Mike,
Did I not request that you stop copying Watchtower articles on this apostate site? You're just making yourself look ever more foolish by doing so.
Your latest posts are all the same:despite passing references to secular sources, in the end you are simply using the BIble to prove the Bible. That's faulty circular reasoning. All you've done with these issues (e.g. 607 BCE date) is show that the Bible might lead one to think that date is correct. But that's my point: the Bible is wrong. You can't prove it is right by showing that this is what the Bible says.
You have fallen for so many forgeries and hoaxes (such as the "bone box" http://www.truthbeknown.com/os... that I can't help but feel sorry for you. I don't think you'll ever dig yourself out of hole you've fallen into.
Sure, we can "explain" the lack of historical support for all of these bible stories by imagining yet more miracles to shore them up (such as your "explanations" of how God might've refracted sunlight to allow the Israelites to murder more people). But this violates the law of parsimony. These aren't new ideas you're presenting. I've already read all this crap in the Watchtower, and using critical thinking skills came to the logical conclusion that it's all just a desperate attempt to hold a crumbling fallacy together.
What is more likely: That men made up these miraculous stories to justify their murderous ways, or that God really did "make the sun stand still" so that some men could slaughter other men -- yet no one else in the world noticed? And this is the same God who watches children die of leukemia and church roofs collapse on nine-year old worshipers?
What's more likely: that there was a man who worked miracles witnessed by thousands of people, including an earthquake when he died which resurrected a bunch of people who were seen by still more people -- and secular history didn't record one word: or that men lie?
What's more likely: that Matthew and Luke manufactured their biographies, or that Jesus really was born twice, and had two different genealogies, and did and didn't go to Egypt [all the things we'd have to accept if their two contradictory gospel accounts were both true.]
Yes, you can surround yourself in a cocoon of Watchtower articles to comfort you with their torturous "explanations" of how the whole world is wrong and all evidence contrary to the fairy tales of the Bible must be incorrect. But I don't want to live my life that way anymore, and I don't really care to read any more of it: ever. I've already spent way too much time on people who are too stuck in "Watchtower mode" to listen or think for themselves. Come back if you want a fresh perspective, but don't just dump these Watchtower articles on us: they have their own website for that.
William Huget
It is patently false that NWT is the most accurate Bible or that JWs just have a problem organizationally, not doctrinally. The NWT is universally panned by every credible Greek scholar as a sectarian, pathetic version. It is not readable, not accurate. The translation committee (mostly Fred Franz) had no ability to take on the task at all. The poster who claims they have studied and know is not credible or evidence based. Sorry they will disagree, but the facts objectively speak for themselves.
Steve
Mike,
Seriously?
And your point is?
Really, this is the sort of crap that most of us here have happily graduated from and put behind us. You needn't copy and paste any more Watchtower articles here; we already know what they say, and have rebuttals for it. If we want to read Watchtower garbage we know where to go and find it.
Your entire premise is faulty because it rests on the absurd and unsupportable notion that the Bible is God's word. It is not: http://smmcroberts.net/religio...
If you really think there's an invisible evil spirit that doesn't want us to know God's name, I think you need to know just how crazy that sounds (especially to those of us who've regained our sanity after fleeing the locked-down mind-prison of the Watchtower.)
Please seek help before you lose what remaining reason you may have.
Mike
So for all of you fools that think the bible is not the word of God check this scripture out:
Isaiah 40:22 was written some 2,700 years ago states the Earth is round. Scientist didn't discover that fact until 400 years ago.
Steve
Mike,
So, you've already descended to name calling; just like Jesus. Well, scientists knew the Earth was not only round, but spherical long before 1613. I thought you were so grounded in history, Mike. You're off by more than 2,000 years there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...
I think you're the one that needs to "get your facts straight." Also, please realize that a circle is not a sphere.
The Bible depicts the Earth as a flat disk with a solid "firmament" for a sky with little lights called "stars" stuck up in it. In order for it to rain, windows in this "heaven" have to be opened to let in the "waters above the Earth." The Sun and Moon travel around the Earth instead of the other way around. And God and the angels live right above the firmament, which is why Jesus and Elijah were able to "ascend into heaven" by floating up to the clouds. When it comes to reality, the Bible falls very short. Understandable in the ignorant times of the distant past. Not understandable if it is the word of the creator. And not understandable in any modern age individual's belief.
Of course, if the Bible HAD written that the Earth was a sphere, that wouldn't make it "the word of God." It would just remove one of the multitude of things it got completely wrong.
Mike
Regarding the accurate date of the destruction of Jerusalem.
Yes according to historians and archaeologists, 586 or 587 B.C.E. is generally accepted as the year of Jerusalem’s destruction.
However lets review Bible chronology so we can examine a more accurate year because knowing the actual year when this “ultimate catastrophe” began and understanding how the restoration of true worship in Jerusalem fulfilled a precise Bible prophecy will build your confidence in the reliability of God’s Word.
Here is evidence within the Bible itself.
Years before the destruction, the Jewish prophet Jeremiah provided an essential clue to the time frame given in the Bible. He warned “all those living in Jerusalem,” saying: “This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:1, 2, 11, New International Version) The prophet later added: “This is what Jehovah has said, ‘In accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon I shall turn my attention to you people, and I will establish toward you my good word in bringing you back to this place.’” (Jeremiah 29:10) Instead of saying 70 years “at Babylon,” many translations read “for Babylon.” (NIV) Some historians therefore claim that this 70-year period applies to the Babylonian Empire. According to secular chronology, the Babylonians dominated the land of ancient Judah and Jerusalem for some 70 years, from about 609 B.C.E. until 539 B.C.E. when the capital city of Babylon was captured. The Bible, however, shows that the 70 years were to be a period of severe punishment from God—aimed specifically at the people of Judah and Jerusalem, who were in a covenant to obey him. (Exodus 19:3-6) When they refused to turn from their bad ways, God said: “I will summon . . . Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon . . . against this land and its inhabitants and against all the surrounding nations.” (Jeremiah 25:4, 5, 8, 9, NIV) While nearby nations would also suffer Babylon’s wrath, the destruction of Jerusalem and the 70-year exile to follow were called by Jeremiah “the punishment of my people,” for Jerusalem had “sinned greatly.”—Lamentations 1:8; 3:42; 4:6, NIV.
So according to the Bible, the 70 years was a period of bitter punishment for Judah, and God used the Babylonians as the instrument for inflicting this severe chastisement. Yet, God told the Jews: “When seventy years are completed, . . . I will . . . bring you back to this place”—the land of Judah and Jerusalem.—Jeremiah 29:10, NIV.
Ok so when did “the Seventy Years” Start?
The inspired historian Ezra, who lived after the 70 years of Jeremiah’s prophecy were fulfilled, wrote of King Nebuchadnezzar: “He carried into exile to Babylon the remnant, who escaped from the sword, and they became servants to him and his sons until the kingdom of Persia came to power. The land enjoyed its sabbath rests; all the time of its desolation it rested, until the seventy years were completed in fulfillment of the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah.”—2 Chronicles 36:20, 21, NIV.
Thus, the 70 years were to be a period when the land of Judah and Jerusalem would enjoy “sabbath rests.” This meant that the land would not be cultivated—there would be no sowing of seed or pruning of vineyards. (Leviticus 25:1-5, NIV) Because of the disobedience of God’s people, whose sins may have included a failure to observe all the Sabbath years, the punishment was that their land would remain unworked and deserted for 70 years.—Leviticus 26:27, 32-35, 42, 43.
So When did the land of Judah become desolated and unworked? Actually, the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar attacked Jerusalem twice, years apart. When did the 70 years commence? Certainly not following the first time that Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to Jerusalem. Why not? Although at that time Nebuchadnezzar took many captives from Jerusalem to Babylon, he left others behind in the land. He also left the city itself standing. For years after this initial deportation, those left remaining in Judah, “the lowly class of the people,” lived off their land. (2 Kings 24:8-17) But then things drastically changed.
A Jewish revolt brought the Babylonians back to Jerusalem. (2 Kings 24:20; 25:8-10) They razed the city, including its sacred temple, and they took many of its inhabitants captive to Babylon. Within two months, “all the people [who had been left behind in the land] from the least to the greatest, together with the army officers, fled to Egypt for fear of the Babylonians.” (2 Kings 25:25, 26, NIV) Only then, in the seventh Jewish month, Tishri (September/October), of that year could it be said that the land, now desolate and unworked, began to enjoy its Sabbath rest. To the Jewish refugees in Egypt, God said through Jeremiah: “You have seen all the disaster that I brought upon Jerusalem and upon all the cities of Judah. Behold, this day they are a desolation, and no one dwells in them.” (Jeremiah 44:1, 2, English Standard Version) So this event evidently marked the starting point of the 70 years.
And what year was that? To answer, we need to see when that period ended.
The prophet Daniel, who lived until “the kingdom of Persia came to power,” was on the scene in Babylon, and he calculated when the 70 years were due to end. He wrote: “I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.”—Daniel 9:1, 2, English Standard Version)
Ezra reflected on the prophecies of Jeremiah and linked the end of “the seventy years” to the time when “the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation.” (2 Chronicles 36:21, 22, NIV) When were the Jews released? The decree ending their exile was issued in “the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia.” Thus, by the fall of 537 B.C.E., the Jews had returned to Jerusalem to restore true worship.—Ezra 1:1-5; 2:1; 3:1-5.
According to Bible chronology, then, the 70 years was a literal period of time that ended in 537 B.C.E. Counting back 70 years, the start date of the period would be 607 B.C.E.
But if the evidence from the inspired Scriptures clearly points to 607 B.C.E. for Jerusalem’s destruction, why do many authorities hold to the date 587 B.C.E.? They lean on two sources of information—the writings of classical historians and the canon of Ptolemy.
Are these sources more reliable than the Scriptures?
Historians who lived close to the time when Jerusalem was destroyed give mixed information about the Neo-Babylonian kings. The time line based on their chronological information disagrees with that of the Bible.
- But just how reliable are their writings?
One of the historians who lived closest to the Neo-Babylonian period was Berossus, a Babylonian “priest of Bel.” His original work, the Babyloniaca, written about 281 B.C.E., has been lost, and only fragments are preserved in the works of other historians. Berossus claimed that he used “books which had been preserved with great care at Babylon.” Was Berossus really an accurate historian? Consider one example.
Berossus wrote that Assyrian King Sennacherib followed “the reign of [his] brother”; and “after him his son [Esarhaddon ruled for] 8 years; and thereafter Sammuges [Shamash-shuma-ukin] 21 years.” However, Babylonian historical documents written long before Berossus’ time say that Sennacherib followed his father, Sargon II, not his brother, to the throne; Esarhaddon ruled for 12 years, not 8; and Shamash-shuma-ukin ruled for 20 years, not 21. Scholar R. J. van der Spek, while acknowledging that Berossus consulted the Babylonian chronicles, wrote: “This did not prevent him from making his own additions and interpretations.”
-How do other scholars view Berossus? “In the past Berossus has usually been viewed as a historian,” states S. M. Burstein, who made a thorough study of Berossus’ works. Yet, he concluded: “Considered as such his performance must be pronounced inadequate. Even in its present fragmentary state the Babyloniaca contains a number of surprising errors of simple fact . . . In a historian such flaws would be damning, but then Berossus’ purpose was not historical.”
-In view of the foregoing, what do you think? Should Berossus’ calculations really be viewed as consistently accurate? And what about the other classical historians who, for the most part, based their chronology on the writings of Berossus? Can their historical conclusions really be called reliable?
Heres info on The Canon of Ptolemy
The Royal Canon of Claudius Ptolemy, a second-century C.E. astronomer, is also used to support the traditional date 587 B.C.E. Ptolemy’s list of kings is considered the backbone of the chronology of ancient history, including the Neo-Babylonian period.
Ptolemy compiled his list some 600 years after the Neo-Babylonian period ended. So how did he determine the date when the first king on his list began to reign? Ptolemy explained that by using astronomical calculations based in part on eclipses, “we have derived to compute back to the beginning of the reign of Nabonassar,” the first king on his list.
Thus, Christopher Walker of the British Museum says that Ptolemy’s canon was “an artificial scheme designed to provide astronomers with a consistent chronology” and was “not to provide historians with a precise record of the accession and death of kings.” “It has long been known that the Canon is astronomically reliable,” writes Leo Depuydt, one of Ptolemy’s most enthusiastic defenders, “but this does not automatically mean that it is historically dependable.” Regarding this list of kings, Professor Depuydt adds: “As regards the earlier rulers [who included the Neo-Babylonian kings], the Canon would need to be compared with the cuneiform record on a reign by reign basis.”
-What is this “cuneiform record” that enables us to measure the historical accuracy of Ptolemy’s canon? It includes the Babylonian chronicles, lists of kings, and economic tablets—cuneiform documents written by scribes who lived during, or near, Neo-Babylonian times.
-How does Ptolemy’s list compare with that cuneiform record?
Notice that Ptolemy lists only four kings between the Babylonian rulers Kandalanu and Nabonidus. However, the Uruk King List—a part of the cuneiform record—reveals that seven kings ruled in between. Were their reigns brief and negligible? One of them, according to cuneiform economic tablets, ruled for seven years.
-There is also strong evidence from cuneiform documents that prior to the reign of Nabopolassar (the first king of the Neo-Babylonian period), another king (Ashur-etel-ilani) ruled for four years in Babylonia. Also, for more than a year, there was no king in the land. Yet, all of this is left out of Ptolemy’s canon.
-Why did Ptolemy omit some rulers? Evidently, he did not consider them to be legitimate rulers of Babylon. For example, he excluded Labashi-Marduk, a Neo-Babylonian king. But according to cuneiform documents, the kings whom Ptolemy omitted actually ruled over Babylonia.
In general, Ptolemy’s canon is regarded as accurate. But in view of its omissions, should it really be used to provide a definite historical chronology?
The Conclusion Based on This Evidence To sum up: The Bible clearly states that there was an exile of 70 years. There is strong evidence—and most scholars agree—that the Jewish exiles were back in their homeland by 537 B.C.E. Counting back from that year would place Jerusalem’s destruction in 607 B.C.E. Though the classical historians and the canon of Ptolemy disagree with this date, valid questions can be raised about the accuracy of their writings. Really, those two lines of evidence hardly provide enough proof to overturn the Bible’s chronology.
Steve
Mike,
No, as usual, your comments don't help at all.
In regards to 1914 you make two errors in your latest post.
1. You say that "There are still many surviving people that were part of the generation in question."
How do you define "many"? I referred you to a list of all of the verified claims of people at or over 109 years old (the remnants of the "1914 generation" in the old WT view.) It came to 21. You suggest that there are others. Please provide evidence of this. But let's say you're right, and we've only sampled 38 out of 200 countries. I'll be generous and pro-rate the number for you to 111 (200 * (21/38)).
So, if there are 111 people at or over 109 years old in a world population of 7,075,149,877
(http://www.census.gov/main/www... at time of this writing), that means that your 1914 generation represents 0.0000016% (sixteen ten-millionths of a percent) of the population. Not "one in a million," but less than one in 64 million. If that's really how you define "many" and "plenty" then we're not speaking the same language. (I'm speaking English and you're speaking Watchtower.)
2. You say that the WT has never changed its understanding of "the generation" [At least to your knowledge.]
I'm amazed that you don't know of the WT having changed the generation doctrine in recent years. In 1995 they changed it to mean that worldly people would still be around until the big A:
"Therefore, in the final fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy today, "this generation" apparently refers to the peoples of earth who see the sign of Christ's presence but fail to mend their ways" -- Watchtower 1995 November 1 p.20
That change allowed them to keep postponing the big A for as long as gullible people exist.
But with that change they lost the sense of urgency so crucial to their continued existence. So, in 2010 they changed it to the "current understanding" of "overlapping generations":
"He evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation." -- Watchtower 2010 Apr 15 p.10
That's quite a change! It's a complete doctrinal about-face: from meaning worldly folks who ignore the signs to meaning the anointed!
They've actually changed their minds on what the "generation" means no less than five times in their history. Please see:
www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/gen...
As for Isaiah: The date for the writing of Isaiah is not relevant to my point. My point was that scientists knew the world was spherical long before the "400 years ago" that you stated. It's also irrelevant because all the author of the statement in Isaiah stated was that the Earth was a circle. But that's not accurate; the Earth is not a flat circle: the Earth is a sphere. With your latest comment you have added another mistake to your collection: Chapter 40 of Isaiah was not written in the 8th century BCE. Deutero-Isaiah (chapters 40–55), is the work of one or more 6th-century BCE authors writing near the end of the Babylonian captivity (see Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B...
Your comments about Elijah aren't relevant either. I don't care if he died at that point. What is relevant is how the Bible writers viewed the Earth and space. To them the Earth was a flat disk and the sky was a firm inverted bowl in which the Sun revolved around the Earth and from which stars could fall down (or stand over a particular house) and people could fly up into and out of sight (once a window was opened in the firmament to allow them into the heaven where God lived.)
I don't usually have to tell people that this is a false conception.
Mike
Steve. I hope this helps.
In regards to 1914 your list includes only 38 nations. There are well over 200 nations currently in the world. There are also many lands that are not counted as countries. There are still many surviving people that were part of the generation in question. Also, To the best of my knowledge I know that the Watchtower has never once changed their view of a generation as you stated. Do your research online and you will see there's plenty alive still on earth.
Regarding the earth being round yes
Early Greek philosophers around the 6th century B.C.E alluded to a spherical Earth, however the profit Isaiah wrote his book between the years 732 and 778 B.C.E based on bible chronology .
In regards to the profit Elijah
Ascension to Heaven.
-At 2 Kings 2:11, 12 the prophet Elijah is described as “ascending in the windstorm to the heavens.” The heavens here referred to are the atmospheric heavens in which windstorms occur, not the spiritual heavens of God’s presence. Elijah did not die at the time of such ascension, but he continued to live for a number of years after his heavenly transportation away from his successor Elisha. Nor did Elijah upon death ascend to the spiritual heavens, since Jesus, while on earth, clearly stated that “no man has ascended into heaven.” (Joh 3:13)
At Pentecost, Peter likewise said of David that he “did not ascend to the heavens.” (Ac 2:34) In reality, there is nothing in the Scriptures to show that a heavenly hope was held out to God’s servants prior to the coming of Christ Jesus. Such hope first appears in Jesus’ expressions to his disciples (Mt 19:21, 23-28; Lu 12:32; Joh 14:2, 3) and was fully comprehended by them only after Pentecost of 33 C.E.—Ac 1:6-8; 2:1-4, 29-36; Ro 8:16, 17.
The Scriptures show that Christ Jesus was the first one to ascend from earth to the heavens of God’s presence. (1Co 15:20; Heb 9:24) By such ascension and his presentation of his ransom sacrifice there, he ‘opened the way’ for those who would follow—the spirit-begotten members of his congregation. (Joh 14:2, 3; Heb 6:19, 20; 10:19, 20) In their resurrection these must bear “the image of the heavenly one,” Christ Jesus, in order to ascend to the heavens of the spirit plane, for “flesh and blood” cannot inherit that heavenly Kingdom.—1Co 15:42-50.
Mike
Job 26:7 written 1600 B.C.E
He is stretching out the north over the empty place,
Hanging the earth upon nothing;
Mike
-Regarding the existence of Jesus Christ.
Here is Archaeological Evidence of Jesus’ Existence?
“EVIDENCE of Jesus Written in Stone.” So proclaimed the cover of Biblical Archaeology Review (November/December 2002). That cover featured a limestone bone box, an ossuary, that was found in Israel. Ossuaries were widely used among the Jews during the brief period between the first century B.C.E. and 70 C.E. What made this one especially significant was an Aramaic inscription on one side. Scholars acknowledged its reading: “James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus.”
According to the Bible, Jesus of Nazareth had a brother named James who was considered a son of Joseph, the husband of Mary. When Jesus Christ taught in his hometown, the astounded audience asked: “Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us?”—Matthew 13:54-56; Luke 4:22; John 6:42.
Yes, the inscription on the ossuary fits the description of Jesus the Nazarene. If the James mentioned in the inscription was the half brother of Jesus Christ, then it would be “the oldest extrabiblical archaeological evidence of Jesus,” asserts André Lemaire, an authority on ancient inscriptions and the writer of the aforementioned article in Biblical Archaeology Review. Hershel Shanks, editor of the magazine, notes that the ossuary “is something tactile and visible reaching back to the single most important personage ever to walk the earth.”
However, all three names readable on the inscribed ossuary were common in the first century. So it is possible that a family whose members included a James, a Joseph, and a Jesus existed apart from the family of Jesus Christ. Lemaire estimates: “In Jerusalem during the two generations before 70 C.E., there were . . . probably about 20 people who could be called ‘James/Jacob son of Joseph brother of Jesus.’” Nevertheless, he feels that there is a 90-percent chance that the James on the ossuary was the half brother of Jesus Christ.
There is another factor that makes some believe that the James in the inscription was Jesus Christ’s half brother. Although it was common to mention the father of the deceased in such inscriptions, it was very rare to name a brother. Therefore, some scholars believe that this Jesus must have been somebody important, causing them to think that he was Jesus Christ, the founder of Christianity.
-Is the Ossuary Authentic?
What is an ossuary? It is a box, or chest, into which the bones of a deceased person were put after the body had decayed in a burial cave. Many ossuaries were looted from burial places around Jerusalem. The box with the James inscription emerged from the antiquities market, not from an official excavation site. The owner of the artifact is said to have bought it for a few hundred dollars in the 1970’s. Thus, the origin of the ossuary is shrouded in mystery. “If you cannot say where an artifact was found and where it has been for nearly 2,000 years, you cannot pretend to draw the lines of connection between the object and the people it might mention,” says Professor Bruce Chilton of Bard College, New York.
To offset the lack of archaeological background, André Lemaire sent the box to the Geological Survey of Israel. The researchers there verified that the ossuary was made of limestone from the first or second century C.E. They reported that “no sign of the use of a modern tool or instrument was found.” Still, Bible scholars interviewed by The New York Times expressed the opinion that “the circumstantial evidence supporting a link to Jesus was possibly strong, but circumstantial nonetheless.”
Time magazine commented that “almost no educated person these days doubts that Jesus lived.” Still, many feel that there ought to be evidence in addition to the Bible of Jesus’ existence.
Should archaeology be the basis for one’s belief in Jesus Christ? What evidence do we have of the historicity of “the single most important personage ever to walk the earth”?
Please read on.
Jesus Christ—Evidence That He Walked the Earth
DO YOU believe in the existence of the man named Albert Einstein?
You may readily answer yes, but why? Most people have not personally met him. Yet, reliable reports of his accomplishments prove that he did exist. The influence of his existence is felt through scientific applications of his discoveries. For instance, many benefit from electricity generated by nuclear energy, the release of which is closely linked with the application of Einstein’s famous equation, E=mc2 (energy equals mass times the speed of light squared).
The same reasoning applies to Jesus Christ, admittedly the most influential man in history. What was written about him and the visible evidence of the influence he wielded prove beyond doubt that he did exist. As interesting as the recent archaeological finding of the James inscription, described in the preceding article, may be, Jesus’ historicity does not depend on this or any other artifact. The fact is, we can find evidence of Jesus’ existence in what secular historians wrote about him and his followers.
Testimony of Historians
For instance, consider the testimony of Flavius Josephus, a first-century Jewish historian who was a Pharisee. He referred to Jesus Christ in the book Jewish Antiquities. Although some doubt the authenticity of the first reference where Josephus mentioned Jesus as the Messiah, Professor Louis H. Feldman of Yeshiva University says that few have doubted the genuineness of the second reference. There Josephus said: “[Ananus the high priest] convened the judges of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ.” (Jewish Antiquities, XX, 200) Yes, a Pharisee, a member of the sect many of whose adherents were avowed enemies of Jesus, acknowledged the existence of “James, the brother of Jesus.”
The influence of Jesus’ existence was felt through the activities of his followers. When the apostle Paul was imprisoned in Rome about 59 C.E., the principal men of the Jews told him: “As regards this sect it is known to us that everywhere it is spoken against.” (Acts 28:17-22) They called Jesus’ disciples “this sect.” If they were everywhere spoken against, secular historians would likely report about them, would they not?
Tacitus, born about 55 C.E. and considered one of the world’s greatest historians, mentioned the Christians in his Annals. In the account about Nero’s blaming the great fire of Rome in 64 C.E. on them, he wrote: “Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus.” The details of this account match the information regarding the Jesus of the Bible.
Another writer who commented on Jesus’ followers was Pliny the Younger, the governor of Bithynia. In about the year 111 C.E., Pliny wrote to Emperor Trajan, asking how to handle Christians. People who were falsely accused of being Christians, wrote Pliny, would repeat an invocation to the gods and worship the statue of Trajan, just to prove that they were not Christians. Pliny continued: “There is no forcing, it is said, those who are really Christians, into any of these compliances.” That testifies to the reality of the existence of the Christ, whose followers were prepared to give their lives for their belief in him.
After summarizing the references to Jesus Christ and his followers by the historians of the first two centuries, The Encyclopædia Britannica (2002 edition) concludes: “These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries.”
Testimony of Jesus’ Followers
“The New Testament supplies nearly all the evidence for a historical reconstruction of Jesus’ life and fate and for the earliest Christian interpretations of his significance,” says The Encyclopedia Americana. Skeptics may not accept the Bible as evidence of Jesus’ existence. Yet, two lines of reasoning based on Scriptural accounts particularly help to establish that Jesus actually walked the earth.
As we noted, Einstein’s great theories prove his existence. Similarly, Jesus’ teachings prove the reality of his existence. Take for example the Sermon on the Mount, a well-known discourse that Jesus gave. (Matthew, chapters 5-7) The apostle Matthew wrote of the impact of that sermon: “The crowds were astounded at his way of teaching; for he was teaching them as a person having authority.” (Matthew 7:28, 29) Regarding the effect the sermon has had on people over the centuries, Professor Hans Dieter Betz noted: “The influences exerted by the Sermon on the Mount generally far transcend the borderlines of Judaism and Christianity, or even Western culture.” He added that this sermon has “a peculiarly universalistic appeal.”
Consider the following concise and practical words of wisdom found in the Sermon on the Mount: “Whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him.” “Take good care not to practice your righteousness in front of men.” “Never be anxious about the next day, for the next day will have its own anxieties.” “Do not . . . throw your pearls before swine.” “Keep on asking, and it will be given you.” “All things . . . that you want men to do to you, you also must likewise do to them.” “Go in through the narrow gate.” “By their fruits you will recognize them.” “Every good tree produces fine fruit.”—Matthew 5:39; 6:1, 34; 7:6, 7, 12, 13, 16, 17.
No doubt you have heard some of these expressions or the gist of them. Perhaps they have become proverbs in your language. These are all taken from the Sermon on the Mount. The influence that this sermon has on many peoples and cultures eloquently testifies to the existence of “the great teacher.”
Let us imagine that someone fabricated a figure called Jesus Christ. Suppose that person was clever enough to come up with the teachings credited to Jesus in the Bible. Would he not contrive to make Jesus and his teachings as palatable as possible to people in general? Yet, the apostle Paul observed: “Both the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks look for wisdom; but we preach Christ impaled, to the Jews a cause for stumbling but to the nations foolishness.” (1 Corinthians 1:22, 23) The message of Christ impaled was attractive neither to the Jews nor to the nations. That was, though, the Christ that first-century Christians proclaimed. Why the depiction of the Christ impaled? The only satisfactory explanation would be that the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures recorded the truth about Jesus’ life and death.
Another line of reasoning supporting Jesus’ historicity is found in the untiring preaching of his teachings by his followers. Only some 30 years after Jesus started his ministry, Paul could say that the good news “was preached in all creation that is under heaven.” (Colossians 1:23) Yes, Jesus’ teachings spread throughout the ancient world despite opposition. Paul, who was himself persecuted as a Christian, wrote: “If Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and our faith is in vain.” (1 Corinthians 15:12-17) If preaching a Christ who had not been resurrected would be in vain, preaching a Christ who had never existed would be even more in vain. As we read in the report by Pliny the Younger, first-century Christians were willing to die for their belief in Christ Jesus. They risked their lives for Christ because he was real; he had walked the earth and had lived as the Gospel accounts record.
You Have Seen Proof
Belief in the resurrection of Jesus Christ was the prerequisite for Christian preaching. In your mind’s eye, you too can envision the resurrected Jesus by seeing the impact he is making today.
Just before Jesus was killed, he gave a grand prophecy about his future presence. He also indicated that he would be resurrected and would sit at God’s right hand awaiting the time to deal with his enemies. (Psalm 110:1; John 6:62; Acts 2:34, 35; Romans 8:34) Thereafter, he would take action and oust Satan and his demons from the heavens.—Revelation 12:7-9.
-When would all of that happen? Jesus gave his disciples ‘the sign of his presence and of the conclusion of the system of things.’ The sign to identify his invisible presence included great wars, food shortages, earthquakes, the appearance of false prophets, an increase of lawlessness, and severe pestilences. Such calamitous events were to be expected, for the ouster of Satan the Devil would mean “woe for the earth.” The Devil has come down to the vicinity of the earth “having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.” In addition, the sign includes the preaching of the good news of the Kingdom “in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations.”—Matthew 24:3-14; Revelation 12:12; Luke 21:7-19.
Like the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle that fit together, the things that Jesus prophesied have occurred. Since the outbreak of World War I in 1914, we have seen the composite evidence of the invisible presence of Jesus Christ. He is reigning as the King of God’s Kingdom and is wielding tremendous influence.
To appreciate further the effect of Jesus’ existence, you need to study the Bible.
Mike
Regarding the birth year of Jesus and to match up the Matthew and Luke accounts of when Jesus was born.
-Caesar Augustus reigned from
27 B.C.E to 14 A.D.
Lets start with what Matthew says about the Date of Herod 's Death and the birth date of Jesus.
A problem arises with regard to the time of Herod’s death. Some chronologers hold that he died in the year 5 or 4 B.C.E. Their chronology is based to a large extent on Josephus’ history. In dating the time that Herod was appointed king by Rome, Josephus uses a “consular dating,” that is, he locates the event as occurring during the rule of certain Roman consuls. According to this, Herod’s appointment as king would be in 40 B.C.E., but the data of another historian, Appianos, would place the event in 39 B.C.E. By the same method Josephus places Herod’s capture of Jerusalem in 37 B.C.E., but he also says that this occurred 27 years after the capture of the city by Pompey (which was in 63 B.C.E.)
His reference to that latter event would make the date of Herod’s taking the city of Jerusalem 36 B.C.E. Now, Josephus says that Herod died 37 years from the time that he was appointed king by the Romans, and 34 years after he took Jerusalem. This might indicate that the date of his death was 2 or perhaps 1 B.C.E.
It may be that the Jewish historian Josephus counted the reigns of the kings of Judea by the accession-year method, as had been done with the kings of the line of David. If Herod was appointed king by Rome in 40 B.C.E., his first regnal year could run from Nisan of 39 to Nisan of 38 B.C.E.; similarly, if counted from his capture of Jerusalem in 37 (or 36) B.C.E., his first regnal year could start in Nisan 36 (or 35) B.C.E. So if, as Josephus says, Herod died 37 years after his appointment by Rome and 34 years after his capture of Jerusalem, and if those years are counted in each case according to the regnal year, his death could have been in 1 B.C.E. Presenting an argument to this effect in The Journal of Theological Studies, W. E. Filmer writes that evidence from Jewish tradition indicates that Herod’s death occurred on Shebat 2 (the month of Shebat falls in January-February of our calendar).—Edited by H. Chadwick and H. Sparks, Oxford, 1966, Vol. XVII, p. 284.
According to Josephus, Herod died not long after an eclipse of the moon and before a Passover. Since there was an eclipse on March 11, 4 B.C.E. (March 13, Julian), some have concluded that this was the eclipse referred to by Josephus.
On the other hand, there was a total eclipse of the moon in 1 B.C.E., about three months before Passover, while the one in 4 B.C.E. was only partial. The total eclipse in 1 B.C.E. was on January 8 (January 10, Julian), 18 days before Shebat 2, the traditional day of Herod’s death. Another eclipse (partial) occurred on December 27 of 1 B.C.E. (December 29, Julian). Another line of calculation centers around the age of Herod at the time of his death. Josephus says that he was about 70 years old. He says that at the time Herod received his appointment as governor of Galilee (which is generally dated 47 B.C.E.), he was 15 years old; but this has been understood by scholars to be an error, 25 years evidently being intended. (Jewish Antiquities, XVII, 148 [vi, 1]; XIV, 158 )Accordingly, Herod’s death occurred in 2 or 1 B.C.E. We must bear in mind, however, that Josephus has many inconsistencies in his dating of events and is therefore not the most reliable source. For the most reliable evidence, we must look to the Bible.
The available evidence indicates that Herod died likely in the year 1 B.C.E. The Bible historian Luke tells us that John came baptizing in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar. (Lu 3:1-3) Augustus died on August 17, 14 C.E. On September 15, Tiberius was named emperor by the Roman Senate. The Romans did not use the accession-year system; consequently, the 15th year would run from the latter part of 28 C.E. to the latter part of 29 C.E. John was six months older than Jesus and began his ministry (evidently in the spring of the year) ahead of Jesus as Jesus’ forerunner, preparing the way. (Lu 1:35, 36) Jesus, whom the Bible indicates was born in the fall of the year, was about 30 years old when he came to John to be baptized. (Lu 3:21-23) Therefore he was baptized, most likely, in the fall, about October of 29 C.E. Counting back 30 years would bring us to the fall of 2 B.C.E. as the time of the human birth of the Son of God.
Ok so now lets see what Luke says regarding the birth year of Jesus.
QUIRINIUS (Cyrenius)
(Qui·rin′i·us).
Roman governor of Syria at the time of the “registration” ordered by Caesar Augustus that resulted in Jesus’ birth taking place in Bethlehem. (Lu 2:1, 2) His full name was Publius Sulpicius Quirinius.
In the Chronographus Anni CCCLIIII, a list of Roman consuls, the name of Quirinius appears in 12 B.C.E. along with that of Messala. (Chronica Minora, edited by T. Mommsen, Munich, 1981, Vol. I, p. 56) Roman historian Tacitus briefly recounts Quirinius’ history, saying: “[He] sprang from the municipality of Lanuvium—had no connection; but as an intrepid soldier and an active servant he won a consulate under the deified Augustus, and, a little later, by capturing the Homonadensian strongholds beyond the Cilician frontier, earned the insignia of triumph . . . , adviser to Gaius Caesar during his command in Armenia.” (The Annals, III, XLVIII) His death took place in 21 C.E.
Not mentioned by Tacitus is Quirinius’ relationship to Syria. Jewish historian Josephus relates Quirinius’ assignment to Syria as governor in connection with the simultaneous assignment of Coponius as the Roman ruler of Judea. He states: “Quirinius, a Roman senator who had proceeded through all the magistracies to the consulship and a man who was extremely distinguished in other respects, arrived in Syria, dispatched by Caesar to be governor of the nation and to make an assessment of their property. Coponius, a man of equestrian rank, was sent along with him to rule over the Jews with full authority.” Josephus goes on to relate that Quirinius came into Judea, to which his authority was extended, and ordered a taxation there. This brought much resentment and an unsuccessful attempt at revolt, led by “Judas, a Gaulanite.” (Jewish Antiquities, XVIII, 1, 2, 3, 4 [i, 1]) This is evidently the revolt referred to by Luke at Acts 5:37. According to Josephus’ account it took place in “the thirty-seventh year after Caesar’s defeat of Antony at Actium.” (Jewish Antiquities, XVIII, 26 [ii, 1]) That would indicate that Quirinius was governor of Syria in 6 C.E.
-For a long time this was the only governorship of Syria by Quirinius for which secular history supplied confirmation. However, in the year 1764 an inscription known as the Lapis Tiburtinus was found in Rome, which, though not giving the name, contains information that most scholars acknowledge could apply only to Quirinius. (Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum, edited by H. Dessau, Berlin, 1887, Vol. 14, p. 397, No. 3613) It contains the statement that on going to Syria he became governor (or, legate) for ‘the second time.’ On the basis of inscriptions found in Antioch containing Quirinius’ name, many historians acknowledge that Quirinius was also governor of Syria in the B.C.E. period.
There is uncertainty on their part, however, as to where Quirinius fits among the secularly recorded governors of Syria. Josephus lists Quintilius Varus as governor of Syria at the time of, and subsequent to, the death of Herod the Great. (Jewish Antiquities, XVII, 89 [v, 2]; XVII, 221 [ix, 3]) Tacitus also refers to Varus as being governor at the time of Herod’s death. (The Histories, V, IX) Josephus states that Varus’ predecessor was Saturninus (C. Sentius Saturninus).
Many scholars, in view of the evidence of an earlier governorship by Quirinius, suggest the years 3-2 B.C.E. for his governorship. While these dates would harmonize satisfactorily with the Biblical record, the basis on which these scholars select them is in error. That is, they list Quirinius as governor during those years because they place his rule after that of Varus and hence after the death of Herod the Great, for which they use the popular but erroneous date of 4 B.C.E.
(For the same reason, that is, their use of the unproved date 4 B.C.E. for Herod’s death, they give Varus’ governorship as from 6 to 4 B.C.E.; the length of his rule, however, is conjectural, for Josephus does not specify the date of its beginning or of its end.) The best evidence points to 2 B.C.E. for the birth of Jesus. Hence Quirinius’ governorship must have included this year or part thereof.
Some scholars call attention to the fact that the term used by Luke, and usually translated “governor,” is he·ge·mon′. This Greek term is used to describe Roman legates, procurators, and proconsuls, and it means, basically, a “leader” or “high executive officer.” Some, therefore, suggest that, at the time of what Luke refers to as the “first registration,” Quirinius served in Syria in the capacity of a special legate of the emperor exercising extraordinary powers. A factor that may also aid in understanding the matter is Josephus’ clear reference to a dual rulership of Syria, since in his account he speaks of two persons, Saturninus and Volumnius, serving simultaneously as “governors of Syria.” (Jewish Antiquities, XVI, 277, 280 [ix, 1]; XVI, 344 [x, 8]) Thus, if Josephus is correct in his listing of Saturninus and Varus as successive presidents of Syria, it is possible that Quirinius served simultaneously either with Saturninus (as Volumnius had done) or with Varus prior to Herod’s death (which likely occurred in 1 B.C.E.). The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge presents this view: “Quirinius stood in exactly the same relation to Varus, the governor of Syria, as at a later time Vespasian did to Mucianus. Vespasian conducted the war in Palestine while Mucianus was governor of Syria; and Vespasian was legatus Augusti, holding precisely the same title and technical rank as Mucianus.”—1957, Vol. IX, pp. 375, 376.
An inscription found in Venice (Lapis Venetus) refers to a census conducted by Quirinius in Syria. However, it provides no means for determining whether this was in his earlier or his later governorship.—Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum, edited by T. Mommsen, O. Hirschfeld, and A. Domaszewski, 1902, Vol. 3, p. 1222, No. 6687.
Luke’s proved accuracy in historical matters gives sound reason for accepting as factual his reference to Quirinius as governor of Syria around the time of Jesus’ birth. It may be remembered that Josephus, virtually the only other source of information, was not born until 37 C.E., hence nearly four decades after Jesus’ birth. Luke, on the other hand, was already a physician traveling with the apostle Paul by about 49 C.E. when Josephus was but a boy of 12. Of the two, Luke, even on ordinary grounds, is the more likely source for reliable information on the matter of the Syrian governorship just prior to Jesus’ birth. Justin Martyr, a Palestinian of the second century C.E., cited the Roman records as proof of Luke’s accuracy as regards Quirinius’ governorship at the time of Jesus’ birth. (A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture, edited by B. Orchard, 1953, p. 943) There is no evidence that Luke’s account was ever challenged by early historians, even by early critics such as Celsus.
Mike
Regarding Josh 10:13 and Isaiah 38:8 How is such a phenomenon possible?
-First off:
Is anything too extraordinary for Jehovah,” the Creator of the heavens and the earth? (Genesis 18:14) If he chooses to, Jehovah can manipulate the movement of the earth so that the sun and the moon would seem motionless to an earthly observer. Or he can let the movement of the earth and the moon remain undisturbed while refracting the rays from the sun and the moon in such a way that the light from these two luminaries continues to shine. Whatever the case, “no day has proved to be like that one” in human history.—Joshua 10:14.
Regarding Isaiah 38:8
Shadow That Went Ten Steps Back.
The use of sundials extends back beyond the eighth century B.C.E. in both Babylon and Egypt. However, the Hebrew word ma·ʽalohth′, translated “dial” at 2 Kings 20:11 and Isaiah 38:8, in the King James Version, literally means “steps” (NW) or “degrees,” as is indicated in the King James Version marginal readings on these verses. This word is also used in the superscriptions of the 15 ‘Songs of the Ascents,’ Psalms 120 to 134.
In the scriptures mentioned, at 2 Kings 20:8-11 and Isaiah 38:4-8, the account is related of the portent God gave sick King Hezekiah in answer to Isaiah’s prayer. It consisted of causing a shadow that had gradually fallen to reverse its direction and go back up ten steps. This could refer to the steps, or degrees, of a dial for measuring time, and it is not impossible that Hezekiah’s father possessed such a sundial, even obtaining it from Babylon. However, the Jewish historian Josephus in discussing the account speaks of these steps of Ahaz as being “in the house,” apparently indicating that they formed part of a stairway. (Jewish Antiquities, X, 29 [ii, 1]) There may have been a column placed alongside the stairs to receive the sun’s rays and cause a shadow to extend gradually along the steps and serve as a measurement of time.
The miracle performed could have involved the relationship between earth and sun, and if so, it could have been similar to the miracle recorded at Joshua 10:12-14. It appears that this portent had far-reaching effects, inasmuch as 2 Chronicles 32:24, 31 shows that messengers were sent from Babylon to Jerusalem to inquire about it.
-More on the Sun and moon stand still.
In acting on behalf of the besieged Gibeonites, Canaanites who put faith in him, Jehovah extended Israel’s onslaught against the besieging forces by causing the sun and moon to hold their positions in relation to the viewpoint of those at the battle scene, postponing sunset for almost a day’s time. (Jos 10:1-14) While this could mean a stopping of earth’s rotation, it could have been accomplished by other means, such as a refraction of solar and lunar light rays to produce the same effect. Whatever the method employed, it demonstrated again that “everything that Jehovah delighted to do he has done in the heavens and in the earth, in the seas and all the watery deeps.” (Ps 135:6) As the apostle Paul later wrote: “Every house is constructed by someone, but he that constructed all things is God.” (Heb 3:4) Jehovah does as he pleases with his own building, utilizing it as it suits him, even as does the man who builds a house.—Compare 2Ki 20:8-11.
Mike
Hey Steve. Pay close attention please.
What age would you say one should be to recognize war going on, say maybe the minimum would be around 7 years old to comprehend someone's bombing your town. So if someone was age 7 or perhaps age 10 years old in 1914 they would've been born between 1904-1907 which would mean they're between 106 years old 109 years old now. Guess what there are humans 115 years old now. A woman just died in February that was 116 years old and she wasnt even the oldest person alive. So get your facts right. That generation of 1914 IS STILL ALIVE.
Guess what again, we're on the brink of nuclear war in the Mideast between Iran and Israel which would surely cause World war 3. Armageddon is coming and you need to have faith in Jehovah. Don't give up the test of faith yet I urge you.
Steve
Mike,
The Society is on record as using 10 years of age for the age of understanding. Yes, there are rare instances of people living to be 109 years old. There appears to be about 21 verified in the entire world at the moment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...
Do you think that's what Jesus meant when he reputedly said "this generation will BY NO MEANS pass away"
Usually when someone uses this phrase "by no means" it means that it won't even be close. So in this case that choice of words would convey a large majority of the generation not passing away rather than an exceptional few stragglers still hanging on.
But do we really define a generation this way? As long as there's at least one person still standing, it's still their generation? I think not. I don't think anyone has ever used "generation" in that sense. The Watchtower itself has admitted defeat on that prophecy and has changed what a generation means several times. You'd better catch up before you start defending what even the Watchtower has given up on.
The 1914 generation is dead. The WT prophecy failed. Of course, they don't admit that, instead they just redefine the meaning of a generation. What was that you said about being "the most honest people in the world"? Right.
Mike
Whoever writes the blogs about the Jehovah's Witness being a cult is complete lie. The brothers and sisters at the Kingdom Hall are the most honest loving people in the world. It's disgusting to see these lies. I'm not even a member but I have studied many times with them and attended meetings there over the course of the last 20 Years. They are not a cult. I encourage anyone that if you don't believe me then you should try attending a meeting and see for yourself. Men are imperfect and sometimes fall away from them because they can't keep a conformed Christian way of life. Which is a requirement there. Being worldly it not accepted there unless you are just studying with them to eventually learn the bible truth and willing to change your lifestyle. The world is in control by Satan the devil and he has used humans to completely slander the witnesses.
Sharon Lee Murray
According to this summers assembly YOU are NOT supposed to leave your comments on our blogs. Look up the meaning cult before you spout anything about it. YOU have never been in? Then don't suppose to know what we who finally find the truth out about that demonic pagan family destroying cult, have been thru. Unless you've walked in our shoes, keep your comments to yourself until you do the research. And we KNOW men are imperfect, that's why God warned us to not follow earthling man. Ps146:3 Jer17:5 Ac5:29, and ALL of Lu21:8. You talk more than you were a study, if Satan has used humans before what makes you think he hasn't used the wts? JW's and cults, jw's and scandals, and finally their origins, jw's and the occult. It's their own publications where all this stuff comes from. DO YOUR HOMEWORK! You wouldn't get a job, loan or a home without a background check. Why do you allow men who God and Jesus warned about to get away without one concerning your eternal life? And btw, why isn't there a scripture saying in the last days one church will rise above all others, and it will be of God to speak to the nations. NO, It says, DO NOT PUT YOUR FAITH IN EARTHLING MAN<and do="" follow="" not="" them!=""></and>
Mike
I have a background in religious history. I have studied many hours about the differences in both JW Christian beliefs and other Christians in this world. I was just trying to help you with truthful factual info.
The Jehovah's Witness organization is true in its teachings of the bible but its the imperfections of man that ruin the credibility. If you could look past that then the Truth is right there in the Bible. The NWT is without a doubt the most accurate bible today. Sorry if you disagree. I studied the teachings of almost every religion and also read at least 7 bibles of Christianity completely through. With my strong background in history I have concluded that unequivocally the NWT bible is most accurate to the writings of the original Old Test and New Test. Sorry if you disagree. I strongly urge you to stop listening to the accounts of apostates and research the scriptures not from a bible that was part of the 4 ecumenical councils but research older writings.
It's important many people understand the truth about the meaning of life. I hope you have read everything. I'm doing the will of my creator in order to save lives. Jesus is not the God to worship. I hope I haven't offended you.
Much ideology has been created that is not true.
For instance in John 1:1 it says in modern christian bibles that the Word was God. However, theres a bible that pre-dates all other modern translations of the New Testament. It was written and translated in the 1st century and was called the Coptic bible. It was brought to Egypt by the Apostle Mark and was written in original Koine greek and Egyptian. Koine Greek which is the language that Jesus spoke along with all the writers of the New Testament differs slightly from other modern Greek languages.
In the Coptic bible it reads John 1:1 as the Word was a God.
In 451 AD at the council of Chalcedon where modern Christianity came from its interesting to note that the Coptic Christians wanted nothing to do with attending due to the fact that they had different views about God and Jesus. The view of Jesus as God was created at the council of Nicea in 325 AD. It's interesting also to note that Koine Greek was a dead language after the 2nd century AD. So the council members truly didn't understand certain terms or expressions and ways of writing and thinking that the original authors of the New Testament meant.
It's reasonable to think that the Coptic's had a closer view on the Truth of Jesus then the later attendees of the 4 other Ecumenical councils which is where modern Christianity comes from.
The new world translation is the most accurate bible in regards to what the original Koine Greek writers intent was.
Steve
Mike,
Great! With your "strong background in history" you're just the person to answer some historical questions that have been vexing me for a long time. First of all, you must know that the destruction of Jerusalem took place in 587 BCE not 607 BCE, which throws the 1914 date out the window. Please explain to me how God's organization on Earth can fail to know this, and stick to its own interpretation in spite of the evidence to the contrary. Please tell me that it's not just so they can keep their failed 1914 date!
You must also know that Matthew gives the year of Jesus' birth as prior to 4 BCE (when Herod died) while Luke gives it as between 6-9 CE when the census took place in Cyrenius' second reign as governor of Syria. Please explain how Jesus was born twice, at least eight years apart.
Also, can you point me to the historical records from other cultures where they record such events as when the Earth stopped spinning (Josh 10:13) and when it not only stopped but spun backwards (Isa. 38:8). Please explain how all of the astrologers in the world at that superstitious time failed to notice these occurrences (which, of course, would've resulted in massive tsunamis, earthquakes, etc.)
Finally, please explain why no historian ever mentioned Jesus. An omission so glaring that Christian forgers felt the need to insert spurious passages into Josephus' History of the Jews, and into other histories.
Those are just a few to get you started. I'm so glad you found this site and can now enlighten us on these thorny topics. I can hardly wait for you to "set the record straight!"
One more question (this one only personally historical). You've been studying this stuff for 20 years and still can't make up your mind to join it? What sense does that make? If you think it's true, and they say that only within the org (the "ark of salvation") can you possibly survive Armageddon, then how foolish not to join! Is there something about the whole idea of joining that triggers your better judgment? It is to that sensibility of yours that I would appeal: Use your head for something other than a Kingdom Hall doorstop.
Mike
Part 2 of the Truth
So Jesus promises his apostles and other followers that he will resurrect them so that they can be with him in heaven. What will they do there with Jesus?— The Bible says that his disciples who have a part in “the first resurrection” will live in heaven and rule over the earth “as kings with him for the thousand years.”—Revelation 5:10; 20:6; 2 Timothy 2:12.
How many will share in “the first resurrection” and rule with Jesus as kings?— Jesus told his disciples: “Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.” (Luke 12:32) This “little flock,” who are resurrected to be with Jesus in his heavenly Kingdom, are an exact number. The Bible shows that “a hundred and forty-four thousand” are resurrected from the earth.—Revelation 14:1, 3.
How many will live in Paradise on earth?— The Bible does not say. But God had told Adam and Eve while they were in the garden of Eden to have children and fill the earth. True, they failed to do that. But God will see to it that his purpose to have the earth filled with good people is carried out.—Genesis 1:28; Isaiah 45:18; 55:11.
Just think how wonderful it will be to live in Paradise! The whole earth will become like a park. It will be alive with birds and animals and beautiful with trees and flowers of every kind. No one will have pain because he is sick, nor will anyone have to die. Everyone will be a friend of everyone else. If we want to live forever in Paradise, now is the time to prepare for it.
DISTRESSED by environmental and social conditions on earth, many would love to see our planet transformed into a paradise. Yet, this aspiration is not just a 21st-century dream. Long ago, the Bible promised the restoration of Paradise on earth. Jesus’ declarations “the meek . . . shall inherit the earth” and “thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven,” are among the most well-known passages in Scripture. (Matthew 5:5; 6:10, Revised Standard Version) Today, however, not many share a belief in an earthly paradise inhabited by the meek. For most who claim to be Christians, Paradise has been lost.
The French weekly magazine La Vie explains why belief in a paradise—whether on earth or in heaven—has been abandoned, at least in the Catholic Church: “After dominating Catholic pastoral teachings for at least 19 centuries, [the notion of a] paradise has disappeared from spiritual retreats, Sunday sermons, theology courses, and catechism classes.” The very word is said to be shrouded in a “heavy fog” of “mystery and confusion.” Some preachers deliberately avoid it because it “conveys too many images of earthly happiness.”
For Frédéric Lenoir, a sociologist who specializes in religion, the notions of a paradise have become “stereotyped images.” Likewise, Jean Delumeau, historian and author of several books on the subject, thinks that the fulfillment of Bible promises is primarily symbolic. He writes: “To the question, ‘What is left of Paradise?’ Christian faith continues to reply: Thanks to the resurrection of the Savior, one day we shall all join hands and our eyes shall see happiness.”
Death
Where Are the Dead?
What happens to us when we die?
Why do we die?
Would it be comforting to know the truth about death?
THESE are questions that people have thought about for thousands of years. They are important questions. No matter who we are or where we live, the answers concern each one of us.
“death will be no more.” (Revelation 21:4)
Meanwhile, we all die. “The living are conscious that they will die,” said wise King Solomon. (Ecclesiastes 9:5) We try to live as long as possible. Still, we wonder what will happen to us when we die.
When our loved ones die, we mourn. And we may ask: ‘What has happened to them? Are they suffering? Are they watching over us? Can we help them? Will we ever see them again?’ The world’s religions offer differing answers to these questions. Some teach that if you live a good life, you will go to heaven but if you live a bad life, you will burn in a place of torment. Other religions teach that at death, people pass on to the spirit realm to be with their ancestors. Still other religions teach that the dead go to an underworld to be judged and are then reincarnated, or reborn in another body.
Such religious teachings all share one basic idea—that some part of us survives the death of the physical body. According to almost every religion, past and present, we somehow live on forever with the ability to see, hear, and think. Yet, how can that be? Our senses, along with our thoughts, are all linked to the workings of our brain. At death, the brain stops working. Our memories, feelings, and senses do not continue to function independently in some mysterious way. They do not survive the destruction of our brain.
WHAT REALLY HAPPENS AT DEATH?
What happens at death is no mystery to Jehovah, the Creator of the brain. He knows the truth, and in his Word, the Bible, he explains the condition of the dead. Its clear teaching is this: When a person dies, he ceases to exist. Death is the opposite of life. The dead do not see or hear or think. Not even one part of us survives the death of the body. We do not possess an immortal soul or spirit.*
After Solomon observed that the living know that they will die, he wrote: “As for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” He then enlarged on that basic truth by saying that the dead can neither love nor hate and that “there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in [the grave].” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10) Similarly, Psalm 146:4 says that when a man dies, “his thoughts do perish.” We are mortal and do not survive the death of our body. The life we enjoy is like the flame of a candle. When the flame is put out, it does not go anywhere. It is simply gone.
WHAT JESUS SAID ABOUT DEATH
Jesus Christ spoke about the condition of the dead. He did so with regard to Lazarus, a man whom he knew well and who had died. Jesus told his disciples: “Lazarus our friend has gone to rest.” The disciples thought that Jesus meant that Lazarus was resting in sleep, recovering from an illness. They were wrong. Jesus explained: “Lazarus has died.” (John 11:11-14) Notice that Jesus compared death to rest and sleep. Lazarus was neither in heaven nor in a burning hell. He was not meeting angels or ancestors. Lazarus was not being reborn as another human. He was at rest in death, as though in a deep sleep without dreams. Other scriptures also compare death to sleep. For example, when the disciple Stephen was stoned to death, the Bible says that he “fell asleep.” (Acts 7:60) Similarly, the apostle Paul wrote about some in his day who had “fallen asleep” in death.—1 Corinthians 15:6.
Was it God’s original purpose for people to die? Not at all! Jehovah made man to live forever on earth. As we learned earlier in this book, God placed the first human couple in a delightful paradise. He blessed them with perfect health. Jehovah wanted only good for them. Does any loving parent want his children to suffer the pain of old age and death? Of course not! Jehovah loved his children and wanted them to enjoy endless happiness on earth. Concerning humans, the Bible says: “Time indefinite [Jehovah] has put in their heart.” (Ecclesiastes 3:11) God created us with the desire to live forever. And he has opened the way for that desire to be fulfilled.
WHY HUMANS DIE
Why, then, do humans die? To find the answer, we must consider what happened when there was only one man and one woman on earth. The Bible explains: “Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree desirable to one’s sight and good for food.” (Genesis 2:9) However, there was one restriction. Jehovah told Adam: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.” (Genesis 2:16, 17) This command was not difficult to obey. There were many other trees from which Adam and Eve could eat. But they now received a special opportunity to show their gratitude to the One who had given them everything, including perfect life. Their obedience would also show that they respected the authority of their heavenly Father and that they wanted his loving direction.
Sadly, the first human couple chose to disobey Jehovah. Speaking through a serpent, Satan asked Eve: “Is it really so that God said you must not eat from every tree of the garden?” Eve replied: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. But as for eating of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it that you do not die.’”—Genesis 3:1-3.
"You positively will not die,” said Satan. “God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad.” (Genesis 3:4, 5) Satan wanted Eve to believe that she would benefit by eating the forbidden fruit. According to him, she could decide for herself what was right and what was wrong; she could do what she wanted. Satan also charged that Jehovah had lied about the consequences of eating the fruit. Eve believed Satan. So she picked some of the fruit and ate it. She then gave some to her husband, and he too ate some of it. They did not act in ignorance. They knew that they were doing exactly what God had told them not to do. By eating the fruit, they deliberately disobeyed a simple and reasonable command. They showed contempt for their heavenly Father and his authority. Such disrespect for their loving Creator was inexcusable!
To illustrate: How would you feel if you raised and cared for a son or a daughter who then disobeyed you in a way that showed that he or she had no respect or love for you? That would cause you much heartache. Imagine, then, how hurt Jehovah must have felt when both Adam and Eve took a course of opposition to him.
Jehovah had no reason to sustain disobedient Adam and Eve forever. They died, just as he had said they would. Adam and Eve ceased to exist. They did not pass on to the spirit realm. We know this because of what Jehovah said to Adam after confronting him with his disobedience. God said: “You [will] return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) God had made Adam from the dust of the ground. (Genesis 2:7) Before that, Adam did not exist. Therefore, when Jehovah said that Adam would return to the dust, He meant that Adam would return to a state of nonexistence. Adam would be as lifeless as the dust from which he was made.
Adam and Eve could have been alive today, but they died because they chose to disobey God and thus sinned. The reason we die is that Adam’s sinful condition as well as death was passed on to all of his descendants. (Romans 5:12) That sin is like a terrible inherited disease from which no one can escape. Its consequence, death, is a curse. Death is an enemy, not a friend. (1 Corinthians 15:26) How grateful we can be that Jehovah provided the ransom to rescue us from this dreadful enemy!
KNOWING THE TRUTH ABOUT DEATH IS BENEFICIAL
What the Bible teaches about the condition of the dead is comforting. As we have seen, the dead do not suffer pain or heartache. There is no reason to be afraid of them, for they cannot harm us. They do not need our help, and they cannot help us. We cannot speak with them, and they cannot speak with us. Many religious leaders falsely claim that they can help those who have died, and people who believe such leaders give them money. But knowing the truth protects us from being deceived by those who teach such lies.
Does your religion agree with what the Bible teaches about the dead? Most do not. Why? Because their teachings have been influenced by Satan. He uses false religion to get people to believe that after their body dies, they will continue to live in the spirit realm. This is a lie that Satan combines with other lies to turn people away from Jehovah God. How so?
Most religions teach that if a person lives a bad life, after death he will go to a place of fiery torment to suffer forever. This teaching dishonors God. Jehovah is a God of love and would never make people suffer in this way. (1 John 4:8) How would you feel about a man who punished a disobedient child by holding his hands in a fire? Would you respect such a man? In fact, would you even want to get to know him? Definitely not! You would likely think that he was very cruel. Yet, Satan wants us to believe that Jehovah tortures people in fire forever—for countless billions of years! Satan also uses some religions to teach that after death people become spirits who must be respected and honored by the living. According to this teaching, the spirits of the dead can become powerful friends or terrible enemies. Many people believe this lie. They fear the dead and give them honor and worship. In contrast, the Bible teaches that the dead are sleeping and that we should worship only the true God, Jehovah, our Creator and Provider.—Revelation 4:11.
Knowing the truth about the dead protects you from being misled by religious lies. It also helps you to understand other Bible teachings. For example, when you realize that people do not pass on to the spirit realm at death, the promise of everlasting life on a paradise earth takes on real meaning for you.
20 Long ago, the righteous man Job raised this question: “If an able-bodied man dies can he live again?” (Job 14:14) Can a lifeless person who is sleeping in death be brought back to life? What the Bible teaches about this is deeply comforting.
WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES
- The dead do not see or hear or think.—Ecclesiastes 9:5.
- The dead are at rest; they do not suffer.—John 11:11.
- We die because we inherited sin from Adam.—Romans 5:12.
Jehovah made humans to live forever on earth.
Adam came from the dust, and he returned to the dust
Linda
I have heard from people in my community that if you leave the cult the other members are supposed to shun you, even members of your own family. That is not a christian way to behave.
William Huget
Correct. There is a place for biblical discipline, but JWs are harsh and use it for control, not loving redemption.
Gemma
I feel truly sorry for people who are trapped in this cult and too afraid to leave. Everyone is free and should live as he or she wishes without judgement from anybody else. I also don't like how the JWs laugh at me when I explain how I connect more with Buddhism than any other religious idea... How rude.
Trudy Zelenka
Brother Andrew, the scriptures are what helped me see that the governing body are not teaching truth. Here is an example:( Matthew 12:50), Jesus said, “Anyone who does the will of my heavenly father is the same my brother, sister and my mother.” Ask her if she is doing God's will ( she will say yes) then ask her to read Matt 12:50.
And about that heavenly door doctrine> And Give her this scripture: Matthew 7:7
[ Keep Asking, Searching, Knocking ] “Keep asking, and it will be given to you. Keep searching, and you will find. Keep knocking, and the door will be opened to you.” Ask her if she has been asking and seeking so that door will open to her. Show her this scripture: John 10:9
where Jesus said, "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved” And then remind her that the Watchtower taught that the door was closed in the year 1913; Wouldn't that mean, according to the WT, that no one living after 1935 could be saved? Help her to use her mind..and the scriptures are the key. ( please visit my blog)
Danny Haszard
The *Cult* word gets overused,but in some cases it is appropriate.
The definition of a destructive religious cult is like alcoholism-if booze controls you instead of the other way around you are an alcoholic.
I was in the Watchtower society Jehovah's Witnesses,they are not benevolent and won't let you leave their organization in peace.
If they try to ruin your reputation and break up your family for trying to get out then they are a cult!
Whenever you surrender your logic and reason to anyone who demands that you to trust them because they always know better and to please donate generously, it's a cult. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck....
-
*tell the truth don't be afraid*- Danny Haszard
http://www.dannyhaszard.com
andy
says it all really... the problem is trying to get your family to realise it as they have been conditioned to believe everyone else is in a cult but them...
dubless
Here's what triggered my first strong impression of JWs being a cult: during my initial bible study, I had a discussion about the whole birthdays thing. My point was: there is absolutely nothing in the bible that prohibits celebrating birthdays, the JW reasoning is circumstantial evidence at best and certainly not substantial enough to make this "rule" more than a mild suggestion, if anything. The maximum to read from the bible regarding this topic is that birthdays shouldn't be about worshipping a person (which is pretty much the norm outside of North Korea these days) and that you should avoid taking swords or guillotines to such events.
They sort of half-agreed and claimed it wasn't such a big deal anyway and up to everyone's conscience. So, if I joined the club, would I still be able to attend birthday parties in my family without looking over my shoulder and getting "counseled" if caught? Well...one of them, an elder, thought for a few seconds and then proclaimed with a confident smile: "But when you're a JW, you don't WANT to attend birthday celebrations anyway."
That's the essence of cult thinking.
William Huget
JWs and Mormons are the largest pseudo-Christian cults. This does not mean that biblical, historical, orthodox, evangelical Christianity is not true (even if some leaders and groups are sectarian or fall into error, control, etc.).
Andrew
You are right, William. The fact that Mormons and JWs are cults doesn't mean that biblical, historical, orthodox, evangelical Christianity is not true. There are plenty of other reasons on their own why Christianity isn't true.
derangedjdub
As a former JDUB I recall moments along my journey that raised red flags about JW's. One of the first red flags for me was statements that began to circulate about not reading old literature. Jah's chariot that I so desperately wanted to be on was moving forward, and that light of truth was beaming yet brighter and brighter, but if it's the truth then why "poo poo" your own literature...(HMMM)
The other HUGE HUGE red flag was regarding statements that were made regarding the fulfillment of prophecy. The signs of the times being what they are every time I would watch natural disaster coverage on the news, or a WICKED thunderstorm would take place, I would think the end is near. A couple of years ago on several District Convention parts we were told that we should not be watching the news or reading newspapers for sings of fulfillment of prophecy... DOH ... mental gymnastics.. (WTF is being on the watch supposed to mean then???) Once I heard that, I was totally disillusioned.
I feel so stupid. I'm not intellectually challenged; however, why did I allow this to happen. (shakes head)
Number6
As Outlaw points out on the jehovahs-witness.net forum: "JW's are a Cult??!! Thats not what the WBT$ Says!"
For Jehovah's Witnesses who haven't seen the 'Truth abouth the Truth' yet, here be spoilers:
"A destructive cult is a pyramid-shaped authoritarian regime with a person or group of people that have dictatorial control. It uses deception in recruiting new members (e.g. people are NOT told up front what the group is, what the group actually believes and what will be expected of them if they become members)." - Steve Hassan | mental health counselor, Cult Expert.
"Cults are groups that often exploit members psychologically and/or financially, typically by making members comply with leadership's demands through certain types of psychological manipulation, popularly called mind control, and through the inculcation of deep-seated anxious dependency on the group and its leaders." - Michael Langone | Executive Director of the International Cultic Studies Association, Editor of the journal Cultic Studies Review.
"A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgment, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of [consequences of] leaving it, etc.) designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community." - Louis Jolyon West | psychiatrist, human rights activist, expert on brainwashing, mind control.
bridget
Wow, those are great quotes i hadn't seen before, thanks!
Good job!
Great research!!! Keep up the good work!!!!
gcs7000
If you haven't already, watch the M. Night Shyamalan movie, The Village. If you still harbor doubts about JWs being a cult, this movie will shake you awake.










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Mahershalalhashbaz
I feel that the truth is out there hint hint at De16:18-17:7, Isa. 35:8,9 and Isa. 51:4,5. Jesus did say he was the way the truth and the light. And Use these Scriptures in mind as Jesus was very versed in the scriptures and there is no doubt in my mind he had these in mind while looking on his own bad Jehovah Witnesses in his day as well as all of bad Christianity.
I have searched and found De 4:15-19, Isa. 44:9-20, Isa. 54:16,17 to be very helpful in establishing the way the truth and the light already previously discussed and still being expounded upon as I am making a through search of those who worship other gods in my own city know for those who may like this why am i wasting my time telling you to apply it in your own city? Go figure call it encouragement or up-building in love as if I care about Jehovah Witness are Christianity at large. Life is to be experienced not inexperienced riddles upon riddles and they even consume me. But enough of the fun minute of goofing off or goofing on who knows? But one thing I will move forward with the discussion that I have not veered of for a second no matter what it may appear but we all get some room to breath and enjoy what freedom Christ had in mind to give if at all Christ is real. You must forgive me. Because these very few scriptures that I have shared without cost to any that read this shows without doubt that God is real and Jesus and to make this statement stick further I choose Rom. 1:13-25, Rom. 10:1-4, 1 Cor.14:26-40, and 1 John 5:1-26 all to complement everything being discussed and to finish it all off with Isa. 42:18-22 fully in view of Isa. 54:16,17 and Rom. 10:1-4. who will deny these findings today present in this short letter if its not those of Jehovah's blind servant of the facts stated through the scriptures as in line to 2Tim. 3:16,17.
I know I have left you with the job to translate De. 4:15-20, and Isa. 44:9-20 which are very well connected to all the verses under the discussion with a lot of other very worthy scriptures left out in this letter but not really truly left out this letter another riddle for those that desire to fear God because its there only weakness like mine and Paul's at 2 Cor. 11:28-31 and to those who may dare to dispute check please 2 Pet. 3:15,16.
Rom 10:1-4 who's righteousness am I establishing by using Isa. 54:16,17? Rom. 1:13-25 says what about De. 4:15-19 and Isa 44:9-20? And who can recall John 16:7-16? But anyways if anyone would like more I can certainty supply you more like 1 Pet. 1:25 as Isa. 54:16,17 as the good news of Gods kingdom and to string it all together with 2 Tim. 2:14-19 to say the least. And 2 Cor. 9:8-15. To all those agent Shuckly and Molder in all of you and me. I use to love watching the X files. Not that they are the treasure seekers of truth of the bible. Anyways I hope this help some of you who really are hungering and thirsting for righteousness as Jesus stated on the Mount of Olives. And to those pure in heart I hope you can see God. It is written that the blood of the prophets where found in Babylon the great Isa. 21:9 in view of those who have successfully translated the findings of De. 4:15-19 and Isa. 44:9-20 in view of the truth of De.16:18-17:7 and have me in mind to those things that i just mentioned. Should I prove true to sharing and pouring out more scriptures? For give me, if i do not make since in accordance to 1 Cor. 14:26-40 yet there is more to be said at 1 Cor. 14:1-25 because I wish you could all under stand the tongue of the scriptures and we can all be like minded and in the same line of thought to the truth and his righteous and his kingdom at Rev. 21:1-8. you may or may not know the cowards or those lacking in faith but if you ponder and discern what the prophets are discussing in front of your eyes than Jesus might be of great value to you when he says these words at Luke 24:25-27 in view of Rev. 19:11-16.
Remember this to those who have more more will be given, and to those who think they have even what they have will be taken away.
andy
i have no issues with the people themselves per se... the issues i have are with those in "control" and how they hide secrets from the general drones in the congregation.. and they drum into those drones dont listen to anyone else its all lies made by satan and this is why they wont listen to anyone else regardless of you can show them reason to doubt their own beliefs/organisation.
Clair
This is the reason I don't indulge in attempts to reason with Jehovah's Witnesses or any other fundie for that matter. They have a vested emotional interest in ignoring logic. If they admitted you were right the consequences for their lives would be huge. I remember very well being in that place myself, so I recognise the futility of the entire excercise before it begins. A person will not acknowledge anything that will significantly change their life before they are ready to face changing their life.
It is what it is. About all you can do for friends and family still mired in the thought swamp is to throw them a rope occasionally without getting all resentful if they're not quite ready to grasp it. Its hard, its lonely (when its your loved ones you can't reach), its frequently heartbreaking, but that's what freedom of choice means.
kimbal
My approach operates like this >
I find the best way to damage their faith is to start a full blown bible study and get into in-depth discussion with them over time but play dumb on a many issues,
Dragging it out over many months. In this way you actually waste their time and resources and get the opportunity to get inside their head and rewire their thinking processes.
I just love it and find it as evidence to me that their Jehovah is blind and does not work in their lives, as they think; since he cannot detect my methods unless I choose to expose myself. If he could, he would warn them not to call on me.
But as many J.W's today can't even string 2 scriptures together and are rather naive and stupid; they are now much easier to fool than when I was in it some 25 or so years ago.
I also rent my house and move every few months - hence I'm in places where the witnesses have never heard of me and see me as a newbie seeking the truth - which I genuinely am.
I can act so dumb in my persona they don't even believe I was ever a witness when I show them real proof to the contrary ( they think the proof is fabricated )- since they are skeptical about everyone outside the organization.
I exploit their negative behaviour to my personal advantage to manipulate their brains - as I take this mind control stuff very, very, seriously. That's a part of the great deception they don't want to see.
As they claim to have the truth I gladly allow them the chance to present it when they call.
Trolling websites and chatting away is another way to waste their time which makes their annual reports effectively a lie each year - Just like their Jehovah the great liar ( could predict the day and hour if he tried - he has to guess every time a new date comes out ).
While they are trying to convert me, they are leaving the weak and vulnerable alone.
As I was a baptized witness for some 30 years. growing up in it - it's quite easy to slip into their persona and then raise questionable topics which shake their beliefs.
You don't need to know about their history, nor have access to anything more than a Bible if you know what your doing. I've done this many times and had some interesting results.
The fact they chat with you for months and not even suspect you as a problem, also demonstrates your still able to use mind control tactics with some skill. In the end should I choose to reveal myself, I simply say "now you know how I felt wasting 30 years of my life to a god who failed to answer one's prayers" and made me live a lie.
My axe to grind is not so much with the Witnesses, but their Jehovah. It's his head I want on a platter, because he allows such Organizations to exist. There are numerous other organizations driven by this same Jehovah, with all being tarred with the same brush.
( Just on this point you raised about Jehovah's origins and existence - I have made it my mission to study this deity in great depth. I have no doubt he is an E.T being who posses as a Supreme god over all. The witnesses do no know their god.., He is quite dangerous and very deceptive. as a respect the Jews & Muslims mirror is mentality just like the witnesses. He is actually insane and needs to be put down like a rabid dog. He is the old MOON god, a minor planetary deity or Logos, His real name is Nanna-Sin. The Muslims call him ALLah and use his Moon crescent symbol on their flag. )
These people claim to be his representatives and so they deserve what they get. I have no sorrow for them. They actually enjoy being persecuted as it makes them feel right and vindicated. In that way I get to see their true colours shinning through.
Other than the above - I'm actually a very nice person.
Andrew
Hi Kimbal,
Just remember that when you are wasting their time, you're also wasting your own time. If you enjoy it though, well, who am I to tell you not to! Irritating JWs is fun.
But then you went on about things you claim to 'know' that you couldn't possibly know. Claims about god are never backed up with evidence and I find it hard to believe you have access to some information and evidence the rest of us don't. People can't even prove god exists, yet alone know about his characteristics and his mental state.
Just my two cents.
Dyllen
Thank the universe for the freedom, I've become Agnostic. :) I don't claim there was a God who created all this and I don't claim there was a Big Bang -- how our earth and universe started out to be could be either. If I could have evidence that JWs are wrong about showing love in their congregation then I would be try and happy to provide. I can get testimonies from my ex-JW friends who experienced the kind of "love" in the JW world and trust me, it's not very nice!
Great article, Teeny! :)
Andrew
Hi Dyllen,
Well, there is evidence for a big bang. The big bang is pretty much fact. The question is what caused the big bang, and scientists are working on this. Enough evidence is there for us now to be pretty certain that the big bang happened.
Glad you liked the article!
Tim Riches
This is a great post, Andrew! Yes, the Witnesses are particularly obstinate. Teachers only, never willing to learn anything about what the householder believes.
The creepiest part of being a JW (in retrospect) is them calling it 'the truth®' even in casual conversation. "How strong in the truth® is he?" "How long have you been in the truth®?" To an outside observer, it's plain that this is a memetic device designed to prevent the members from ever questioning their beliefs. Disturbing is not too strong a word for this.
Andrew
Thanks Tim!
exjaydub
cult is as cult does. great article! keep on the great work by exposing this stench under the guise of a "christian" religion.
John F
A Mormon related this. A Mormon missionary once had become very depressed after talking to a JW. The JW left him with many questions he couldn't answer about the LDS church. His local leader told him "You know who you were talking to, don't you? Even Beelzebub(Satan) could fool the Prophet." (LDS leader)
As a JW, we mocked the Mormons for thinking this way. How could you win an arguement? If you proved them wrong, you must have been from Satan? Its now become the same with the JW's. If you give them a question they can't answer? Their reply is, "Where did you hear that? Because if that's from an 'apostate' site, then I'm outta here!"
Your solid reasoning doesn't matter with the JW's. So they question the source, even if the material is correct. They have created a rather large wall of fear around the WT followers. For me, when in, the wall was my safe zone. For me to leave, it took something on the inside to happen to wake me up. Thankfully it did.
Andrew
Yep, you're absolutely right. They attack the source. That's why I am labelled an apostate. Then, it doesn't matter what I say! Thing is that people only attack the source when they don't have an answer to what they are saying.
William Huget
The principles of the post are true and wise. Those in mind-control cults may not see or admit that they are. The problem is not with JWs having beliefs or sharing their beliefs, but with having wrong beliefs/practices not supported by evidence. They demand that Catholics examine their faith, etc., but are not able or willing to do so with their own system. The control and indoctrination undermines the ability to be objective. However, many people are leaving the group as they honestly wrestle with the evidence. Unfortunately, too many throw the baby out with the bathwater and become anti-religion, etc. due to a negative experience with false religion. It is one thing to reject the WT (rightly so), but another matter to reject the most awesome, beautiful, valuable being in the universe, God in Christ.
Andrew
Aw man.. I was with you until the end. You've missed one of the biggest points of my post. Believing in anything without evidence, whether JW or not, is equally confusing to me. Besides, we've already answered your claim that we're just 'burned' by false religion and explained that isn't the case. We've shown you we have valid reasons for not believing but you seem to have forgotten that... *sigh* This is exactly what I am talking about in my article.
Number6
I'd guess that many JWs who wake from the Jehovah coma™ become 'anti-religion' because, like me, they also found no evidence that the biblical Jesus ever existed or that the bible is inspired by God - not because of a 'negative experience with false religion'.
"It is one thing to reject the WT (rightly so), but another matter to reject the most awesome, beautiful, valuable being in the universe, God in Christ."
I'm sorry, WH, but did you actually read all of your own post? I did, and you were doing really well until you wrote that. You're under the same spell as the JWs, you're just smoking a different brand.
Andrew
Hear hear!
Sizemik
You crack me up . . .
The point is well made Andrew. It's a glaring double standard when an open mind is demanded by them, when critiquing other viewpoints, when there is zero reciprocity. A brick wall that talks . . . the worst kind.
Grauben
I love this article. I've been saying the same thing for a long time. I've been "inactive" for 15 years now and my family is still trying to bring me back to the "truth'. I will NEVER go back to that cult!










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James
Thanks for your kind words, Number6. I enjoyed reading your experience. Sad that your parents don't have contact with their grandkids, but unfrotuantely it's all too common among the JWs. Most grandparents would love to live that close to their grown kids and grandchildren. They don't know how lucky they were.
(Well, part of the reason might be that they think "lucky" is a bad word.)
Number6
I know exactly what you mean. Technically, my parents are related to my children, which makes them grandparents, but they're not really grandparents.
They don't know how old their grandchildren are, when their birthdays are, what they like to do, eat, watch on tv, what their favourite toys are, who their friends are, what they did at school.
They don't babysit, take them for trips, have them over to stay, watch movies, watch school plays, teach them life skills, encourage them, support them, spoil them, treat them like they're the most precious things on the planet.
They don't behave, act or respond like loving, caring grandparents should, they have no meaningful relationships with their own grandchildren, no meaningful input, no role in their emotional, educational, social or spiritual development.
The saddest thing is they only lived two miles up the road and they visited every week. But most ex-JWs will know these weren't your normal grandparent visits...
I resent my parents telling their JW friends they have grandchildren because it is true technically, but it isn't really. Really they don't care.
My children have grandparents who are too busy serving the governing body of the jehovah's witnesses or enjoying the JW social life as an elder and a pioneer to even notice that they have grandchildren.
Just recently, they upped sticks and sold the family home - that five generations of my family have lived in - to move 50 miles away "where the need is greater". For me that says it all.
My youngest daughter tells her friends that I'm an orphan. I guess it's easier for her to tell them that even though it's not true technically, but, you know...
Now I don't see or speak to my parents at all. I won't answer the phone to them and they still talk to my wife like she's possessed or one of the walking dead. I don't know whether it's worth trying to persuade them to leave the cult or just leave them be.
Anyway, thanks for writing that, James. I don't think we're the only ones having problems with delinquent JW relatives.










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Tim Riches
Thinking of these folks as 'satanic' doesn't help matters. The elephant in the room is faith. These zombies actually believe that their imaginary god gives them proper direction. There is no such thing as revealed truth, folks, and anyone who thinks this is merely a matter of worshiping god incorrectly, or that this problem wouldn't exist in another church, is demonstrating their intellectual bankruptcy.
Loren.
I know when I wrote before and used that word I did it as I couldn’t find another to symbolise utter sociopathic behaviour.
I don’t believe in Satan but this group are like many others, individuals can be this way too, devoid of conscience and arrogantly self-serving. Sickening, and not a group to look up to, to admire let alone trust. They are like irresponsible self-important teenagers, emotionally and morally immature but full of bluster.
Taz Bright
Wow! I definitely learned something! There's no way I'd take the chance that my child could be exposed to a child molester. Shame!
kenneth
Why aren't more child molestation cases coming into light after Candace Conti's success? I'm a bit disheartened, knowing that the cult still has control over people through fear, attorneys, and $$$.
Amber Cox
The Branch Office will determine if the abuser is a predator????? WTF????? Please show me your qualifications to make this call. How do these people sleep at night? Poor misled self righteous motherf*****s.
Franc
You know the governing body are just scum of the earth because they don't give a crap about you and me let alone our children but you know what the ELDERS of the congregation are just as bad because they should know better they should have a brain they're like puppets on a string and I am sick of these bastards who think that GOd and the watchtower are above any of us and know better even in the case of child abuse. Well I say let's do something about these low life's and do it for the sake of the children. I am in the process of organizing a rally here in Sydney Australia and it will be a big rally to expose these f... Arseholes from abusing any more children and expose the society and more so the elders supporting this outrageous policy.
Teeny
Good for you Franc. If you need JWB to help you promote the rally against the Watchtower, let us know and we'll write a blog post and press release on it for you.
Regards,
Jaymes
mattie
Sick bastards, in one sentence they are not to ignore an allegation made even if only supported by one witness, but later states a confession or two legitmate witnesses are required. When does a predator sexually abuse a child infront of anyone? I'm sure it happens, but extremely rare. WOW!!!! I can hardly believe this crap. Turn over every allegation to authorities immediately, you idiots! This letter should be used in any sexual abuse case filed against the WTS from now on. They are extremely stupid. How can they be this stupid and heartless? I'm glad my children aren't exposed to this crap anymore. So glad to be out and never been happier.
Loren.
I am so.. Well I’m like flat, I’m naive maybe in hoping for some humanity in humans, more so in these that sign their blasted endless secret letters from the “Christian congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses.." Oh COME ON!! No love at all there.
These guys are reprobates¬!!
Isnt child abuse bad enough in the "world" without
Them adding the extra .. Oh yes pedo’s u Must have 2 witnesses to it also ..
Free reign?? Isn’t that just a advert for a “PEDOPHILE PARADISE?” Dammed REPROBATES, Complicit in abuse. Damn them and their imbecilic wicked letters. It’s foul. Some say Satanic.. I’m starting to wonder.
Loren.
What I meant is I went to the jw’s to learn about God and all I see is the total opposite which according to the bible is Satan.
It’s sickening. The love of money eh. You 8 wt. guys with your flaccid aged and all too human faces, you phoney phoney manipulators. I see through you, you are not blessed you are slimy businessmen and are selling hope to hopeful good people, who are far better than you are.
Ypu are the worst of the worst, just manipulators and conmen.
If you believe in God which I doubt, well you lot are trash.. Eternal burning trash.
Hal
I know of a J.W. woman who complained to her elders her husband had insisted on sex. Rather the have an ensuing argument she had consensual sexual activity with him. Afterwards she had second thoughts and complained / informed her elders.
The 'elders' recommended she have a seperation.
The husband asked the elders why they had instructed her to seperate?
The elders told him it was for some unappropriate behaviour and when the husband asked what it was and if their was any witnesses they replied: "Since it was done behind closed doors in the privacy of their bedroom, it wouldhave BEEN UNLIKELY their would have been any witnesses.
So much for their 2 witness rule. They make their own rules/formats as it's convienint for their present situations.
Kathleen Conti
It will come as a thief in the night Watchtower, you will be eating and drinking and using other peoples money to gain more power and control, stealing other peoples real estate that they purchased for you. Your life blood is your vast holdings in property and hidden stolen money you have taken with no mercy from Jahovah's Witnesses the world over for decades. You are the "DISGUSTING" thing that hides in the darkest most evil place, your own hearts. Your massive hull has been split open by the ice burg of justice that has begain to manifest itself to the rest of the world, and you are now starting to slowly bleed out your poison for all to see.
I want to live long enough to watch you die off, along with your sick and arrogant polices that protect and reward known pedophiles with in "YOUR" organization. You, "Governing Body" are stubborn stiff necked people ....Read your bible and repent!!
Loren.
Its ok its done-you and Candace have done it already. You have done so so much.
Frank
Though I myself spent only two years in that dreaded JW cult, I still believe that there is a god and that there is only one true god, who lives up in Heaven and that his son is Jesus Christ. Those two years that I spent in that terrible cult never turned me into an atheist nor an agnostic. I always believed that there is a god up in Heaven and that his son Christ Jesus is seated at his father's right hand.
Regarding above, these are simply my beliefs and I am sharing them in a very sincere way. I am not trying to force anyone nor try to convert anyone to this. I am simply and openly sharing what I believe in. I hope that those who follow this blog aside from myself are cool with this. If so, good, than I can move on.
The only thing was that for a long time, I was afraid to pursue anything of a spiritual nature as a result of the man made doctrinal teachings of the JW's and how they love to shove these things down anyone's throats. They did it with me when I was in my early 20's when I was involved with them for that brief two year period and I swallowed everything that they tought me hook, line and sinker and I am sorry that I did.
Apparently, the insanity of how they handle child sexual abuse cases is going to continue forever. They are simply asking for any punishments that are forthcoming as a result of that. There will be more lawsuits. There will be more people being disfellowshipped for doing the right thing by going to the proper authorities and reporting these things. There will also be more heartache and sorrow as far as the victim of the sexual abuse and their families go. The WTBTS will even lose more money as a result of all that insanity. I guess that the Candace Conti lawsuit didn't wake anyone in the WTBTS up. The WTBTS and the JW's will never learn. Now whenever I hear of these things repeatedly, I am now overjoyed that I dropped out of that terrible and disgusting cult when I did. If I continued, it would have really aroused my anger to the point where I would have kicked out and shunned by them after that.
Thanks for this blog. It is a wonderful way to learn anything new or reinforce previous stuff about the WTBTS and the JW's. Keep it coming. You are all doing a wonderful job. Let's just hope that more and more people will wake up and get out of that cult and live the free good life that many still dream of.
Frank
Dyllen
There are people in this world that you can trust. I know that this can be a difficult thing to do, but there are people that can be trusted. The only thing that can be done is to be careful when it comes to trusting someone as trust has to be earned and not easily given away.
Just a thought.
Danny Haszard
The Jehovah’s Witnesses require ‘two witnesses’ to a crime or it didn’t happen,you are supposed to ‘leave it in Jehovah’s hands’ wait on the lord.
How many pedophiles allow an eyewitness? These people engage in a door to door ministry, possibly exposing children to pedophiles. The Watchtower corporation has paid out millions in settlement money already. -- Danny Haszard-longtime JW
vexxed
Bottom line: JW's are a cult. There is no [g]od. Religion is a disease & should be treated as such. It really is this simple.
Dyllen
I wouldn't even put a grain of trust on any elder I see in my hometown of Cairns! Even if I lived next door to a JW with my family, I will be avoiding the elder at all cost! I'm finally seeing it now -- WTS love seeing children get hurt and hate it when they're going so well with their lives! They're sick people and it goes to show you cannot trust anybody in this world.
rosemary osborn
Poor pathetic brain-washed Watchtower Kool-aid drinkers. I feel so so sorry for all of them. They will never know the "other side" as they are forbidden to read anything but WT propaganda. They will always believe that they are right and its persecution. It is is is child abuse and they have to pay. May the Good Lord free them from that joyless destructive cult.
Brinjen
Stubborn until the bitter end. They still seem to have a hard time grasping the difference between moral issues and criminal behaviour... and it looks deliberate. Hide behind your bibles and continue to point the finger at everyone else. Unfortunately, it's the kids who pay...
Herbert Judge Jr.
It's clear they're gonna let these elders take the heat, on these issues. You're gonna hear about Elders who are stupid enough to follow this bullshit from the Governing Body, will be going to prison in the place of these Retards. Remember they are expected by the law of the land to inform the higher authorities, That the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, tells JWs to Respect, of these horrendous incidents of Child Sexual Assault (Abuse, is to soft a word for me). Any Elder stupid enough to allow this to happen to them, would be just as retarded as those idiots in the Governing Body, but it will never be Governing Body Members going to Prison. The WBTS knows that they have their members hook, line, and sinker, afraid to question their policies, thus making the members, especially the Elders,more than willing to accept prison, their child being raped by an adult, without responding appropriately, by at the very least informing the authorities, along with a bunch of other horrible things that can occur, and call it persecution. Believing that protecting this org. Is pleasing to Jehovah. The WBTS feels they are insulated from the investigation from outside authorities, because the fear they've instilled in the rank and file JWs. The fear of being Disfellowshipped, losing Jehovah's Favor, losing family and friends, as caused family members (parents) to insist that authorities are not involved in investigating the sexual assault of their children. THAT IS A F**KING SHAME.
Heather
I can't believe they are still upholding the "two witnesses" rule. When are there 2 witnesses to child abuse?! This disgusts me!
Cynthia
"Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses." Is this a new title, or a different group from the Watchtower?
Teeny
Nope, it's the term used to describe 7 million pawns that can't look out of a window on a Sunday morning/afternoon...
Deranged JDUB
I stopped reading the Letter to the Body of Elders after the first paragraph. I feel sick, as if I could cry. This new letter provides new instruction on child abuse to replace what appears to be almost a yearly letter of instruction. The bold italic instruction to destroy all previous letters is a huge red flag....as if to cover up prior poor instruction??? JW's deny there is a child abuse problem, but why all the letters of instruction? There is obviously a huge child abuse problem and it is being covered up. REPEATEDLY !!! I'm physically getting nauseated thinking about this. I'm so angry! "Where is your god? Maybe he is on the privy and preoccupied..." 1 Kings 18:27. How many babies are praying to a non existent god for help?










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Crosby
Hey, Im trying to understand the whole concept of this 144,000 doctrine. Can someone please explain to me what is the difference between the "Faithful & Discreet Slave" & the "Governing Body"? Not only that, but what exactly is the "new light" that has occured this yr regarding this doctrine. According to the society, is this number still literal?
Thanks in advance for the feedback.
smmcroberts
Hey Crosby,
Good question! I'm somewhat in doubt about this myself, but here's how I understand it (and I'm sure others will correct me if I'm wrong):
The 144,000 is considered the literal number of people who will end up in heaven. Until recently they have been synonymous with the Faithful & Discreet Slave class (though this appellation tended to be used on just those still alive on Earth: aka "the remnant".)
Throughout the years, the Governing Body has been a self-elected body composed of a dozen or less individuals from the remnant. They sit at HQ and make all of the decisions about what Jehovah's Witnesses are allowed to believe and do.
Recently the GB has announced that the Faithful & Discreet Slave is no longer the 144,000 (or even the remnant) but rather the GB (and then only them when they are in a GB session.)
Crosby
Sorry smmcroberts , you did answer that the GB were self-elected.
Thanks again
Crosby
Hey smmcroberts,
Thanks for the reply.
I believe I have more insight into the difference between the faithful & discreet class and the governing body.
Questions:
The discreet class was said to be the 144,000 made up of MEN & WOMEN right?
Is it that they choose MEN from this 144,000 to make up the GB that formulates all JW doctrines? And, who is the "they" that appoints these men?
Is it a requirement that these men be unmarried?
So, this doctrinal change means that the ones going to heaven are no longer 144,000 but just the 12 or so MEN that serve in the GB?
Is there a WT quote that references this important change?
Thank you again to you or anyone else who gives feedback. I know it's a lot of questions but I'm really trying to understand what is going on with this doctrine.
smmcroberts
Yes, the 144,000 are men and women. But no woman has ever been on the GB. Which is strange since, supposedly they will co-rule in heaven. (Good enough for Jesus to choose as co-ruler, but not good enough to co-rule with the men of the GB on Earth!)
I don't think that the men chosen have to be unmarried, though.
The full 144,000 are still supposed to go to heaven. It's just that, outside of the GB they no longer have any input into doctrines (not that, in practice, they ever did, though I suspect some local elders claiming to be "anointed" [i.e. of the "remnant"] may have been causing the GB embarrassment if they questioned doctrines or had ideas of their own that the congregation felt inclined to listen to.)
The change was announced at their annual meeting in October. I think this has been followed by something in print, but I don't know the reference.
smmcroberts
Oops; my mistake: the wise-men story was in Matthew. The "accurate historian" Luke failed to mention this event or the resultant "slaughter of the innocents" -- which would've been an event worthy of historical note if it had ever happened. I guess you can rip Matthew out of your Bible now since you trust the accuracy of Dr. Luke's history.
William Huget
The Gospels and Acts are selective vs exhaustive history. Like any other historical narrative, the author can give his perspective and emphasize different things. Each Gospel had a different target audience, purpose, emphasis, etc., so they are complementary, not contradictory. Harmonies of the Gospels exist and problems are often resolved by dealing with textual criticism, translation, etc. issues.
smmcroberts
Personally I consider it a poor historian who fails to mention one of the most horrendous crimes of all time: murdering all the baby boys in and around an entire city. (Yet includes in his history a visit paid by some shepherds.)
William Huget
Creation and Jesus Christ are witnesses to the existence of God. You believe things about historical figures with far less evidence (manuscripts, eyewitnesses, etc.) than the biblical witness. Just because something is about Jesus vs Plato does not make it false. We also know about biblical authors (Dr. Luke was a first rate historian in Luke/Acts) and archaeology, etc. supports biblical facts. Even secular, atheistic thinkers do not deny much of biblical history. You have confirmation bias against the possibility of supernatural, God, etc. We also don't deny micro evolution (evidence based), but do deny macro evolution (change within species vs one species becoming another). The supposed errors have been answered in light of textual criticism (manuscript differences, etc.). Romans 1 says God has made Himself plain and you will be without excuse for suppressing truth due to futile thinking caused by sin.
smmcroberts
1. There is no evidence that Jesus ever existed, so that can hardly count as a "witness to the existence of God". But even if he had existed, it still doesn't mean there's a God. There were plenty of people who thought they were the Messiah, and who thought they were God. There are still some today, but most of them are safely locked away in pysch wards.
2. "Creation" provides abundant evidence of the macro evolution you deny. But provides no evidence for your particular god.
3. If the writer of Luke was historically accurate, as you claim, then the accuracy of Matthew has to be inaccurate since the writers give conflicting genealogies of Jesus (amongst other things). BTW: It's funny how you mentioned Plato and Luke in the same post since Luke appropriated the legend of wise men bringing gold, frankincense and myrrh from a myth about the birth of Socrates.
4. If some anonymous writer wrote -- decades after Plato died -- that Plato was God and walked on water and rose from the dead and flew into heaven, and had performed other miracles before thousands of eye-witnesses, yet there were no secular accounts of any of these miraculous events or even a mention of Plato's name by any of the many reputable historians of the time, then I wouldn't believe in Plato either. A more appropriate comparison would be to say why I don't believe in Hercules or Krishna. It's not "confirmation bias" as much as it is a simple demand for extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims. It just means that my "baloney detection kit" is working properly.
5. I don't care what Romans says. It is merely a letter probably written by Paul who had never met Jesus. Paul knew as much about God as I do: nothing.
William, thinking isn't "futile", nor is it "caused by sin". Since we don't have revelations from God it is the only way to arrive at the truth. I recommend it highly.
William Huget
Andrew: You cannot say a true statement held by the majority is begging the question or argumentum ad populum. Using your logic, minority held error is always right? It is begging the question to say the sun is hot? I will defend and proclaim truth whether held by minority or majority. I believe my views are evidence based and that you dismiss anything contrary to your new godless position regardless of evidence.
Andrew
Wow... you just took what I said, spun it to mean something completely different, and then argued against what I didn't say! Strawman or what?!
I've said this before, William, but you NEVER listen. I'm honestly not being funny or patronising here, so try reading this carefully. I will accept anything so long as it has evidence. If the scientific method can not verify something, neither can you. I could say that unicorns are beyond science, but that's not enough to make you believe it. Saying creation is evidence is just plain wrong. You'd have to prove it was CREATED in the first place, not just assert it, and then you'd have to prove it was god and not something else, and that it was YOUR god and not Ganesh or Thor.
It isn't a case of me not accepting your 'evidence' - it is that your 'evidence' doesn't point to any conclusions. You are making your own conclusions in an argument from ignorance. You believe your views are evidence based yet say that god is beyond examination, so you contradict yourself. And if god influences our universe, that is something we can test.
You accept scientific or historic evidence when it agrees with your already held position, but reject it when it contradicts it. Evidence for macro-evolution, you say? Here's 29, count them, TWENTY-NINE, pieces of evidence for macro evolution - http://www.talkorigins.org/faq...
If that isn't enough, you're just being silly and aren't willing to go where evidence leads. See, I gave REAL evidence, not some flimsy 'well, we don't know from science so god must have done it' line. Big difference, and it isn't unreasonable for me to ask for evidence. Faith isn't a path to truth.
At the end of the day, believe what you want. We can disagree, that's fine. My problem is only when religious beliefs cause harm to people, examples of which are many.
smmcroberts
William, nothing Andrew said implied that a minority view is always right. Nor did he state that "a true statement held by the majority is begging the question or argumentum ad populum." Are you purposely misrepresenting him, or is it your need to defend your religion that leads you to do it?
What Andrew did was to correctly point out that the argument you used in your post was an argumentum ad populum (i.e. the consensus fallacy). You were implying that the fact that millions of people accept your viewpoint somehow resolves all of its problems. It doesn't.
I know that Andrew has examined your "evidence": contradictory writers (mostly anonymous) who claimed knowledge of the invisible spirit realm as they spun their fairy tales and appropriated others' legends. If that's the kind of evidence that satisfies you enough to call it truth, then you have no business passing judgment on those of us who use the scientific method to discern truth based on verifiable evidence.
William Huget
The scientific method is limited and not applicable to spiritual truth/reality. We need revelation from God. "He is there and He is not silent"- Francis Schaeffer
smmcroberts
William said: "The scientific method is limited and not applicable to spiritual truth/reality. We need revelation from God."
Yes, we may need a revelation if we are to know anything about God. But I haven't had one. Have you? Has God visited or spoken to you lately?
What you seem to be passing off as "revelation" are things MEN have written. For the most part we don't know who these men were, but we do know that the things they wrote are loaded with factual errors which tend to reduce their credibility. Men are often wrong, even when millions believe them.
Who is Francis Schaeffer to tell us that "God is not silent"? So, has he spoken with him? Then that's a revelation for Francis Schaeffer, not for us. As for me, God has remained perfectly mute. But the evidence for evolution and an expanding universe are right before my eyes and are undeniable to any honest person familiar with the facts.
smmcroberts
The victors write the history. After you've killed off (or excommunicated/disfellowshipped) the dissenters you can boast: "We are united in our understanding! All of the greatest thinkers agree with us! [Well, at least the ones still living after our inquisitions. And those who really don't agree are great enough thinkers to know they'd better say that they do.]"
smmcroberts
Both sides of the trinitarian debate can be "fully established" AND "refuted" from the Bible. People have been doing it successfully for centuries, with just as firm a conviction as you, and winning millions of converts to their particular viewpoint.
John and Paul had no more grasp of God's nature than Moses did, or than you or I do: exactly zero for all of us. But some men will stubbornly insist that the particular way they imagine God to be has to be the correct way. There is no reason to believe them. Believing them has already led to way too much bloodshed throughout history. So I declare a truce: William, you can continue to insist you have knowledge of the unknowable all you want. I have made my point repeatedly and will not argue with you further; it is pointless, time-consuming, and futile. Peace to you, believe what you will.
Trudy Z
This kind of reminds me of the Scribes and Pharisees debating whether or not there is a resurrection.
Trinity verses no Trinity conversity.
One either listens to Christ's voice or one does not, it is that simple. What does Christ say about himself? And what do the scriptures prophesy about him?
smmcroberts
Trudy, it's not really that simple to listen to Christ's voice, because we don't know what he said about himself. We only know what others claim he said, and those writers contradict one another, and wrote their stories decades after his supposed death.
If Jesus was the one who "explained God" then he did a really poor job of it. He could've written something himself explaining whether or not he thought he was YHWH, and whether he thought he was part of a trinity. That would've been simple. But he didn't. We are left with contradictory stories which are irreconcilable. So some latch on to one idea or another and then go through the Bible with their confirmation bias which they mistake for certainty as they threaten the rest of us with damnation.
Having thoroughly examined both sides of the argument my honest conclusion is that there is no clear victor in the debate, and that it is a foolish, presumptuous thing to debate about. You might as well debate whether leprechauns have ten or eleven toes. But such debates are critically important to those who believe that there is a God who gets damned upset if his nature is not properly understood [even though he never saw fit to properly define his nature for us]. Go figure.
William Huget
Hundreds of millions of believers, including the greatest thinkers in church history, do not have the problems you seem to have. Just because the WT is wrong and messed up does not mean there is not strong doctrinal agreement in biblical, historical, orthodox Christianity on the essentials. I saw basic truths as a new believer and still see them decades later after theological training, original language research, etc. Jesus revealed the Father and HImself sufficiently in the NT without contradiction. The Pharisees and JWs reject what He claimed, but at least the Jewish Pharisees understood HIs claims (unlike JWs and former JWs)>
Andrew
Whether one, a hundred or a billion people believe something, that doesn't make it true. A long time ago, the majority of people believed the Earth was flat, but they were obviously wrong.
Again, your problem is not knowing what a good reason is to believe something. The Argumentum ad populum doesn't work here.
William Huget
Yes, they debated about the resurrection and the Great Teacher (Jesus) agreed with the Pharisees about the resurrection. Likewise, Jesus would also agree with a triune understanding since He claimed to be the one God, yet related to the Father personally, distinctly. The issue is not about debate, but what is true or false.
smmcroberts
William said: "Either God is triune or He is not. Either the Bible teaches it or it does not."
Missing the most reasonable alternative: some of the writers of what has become the Bible may have believed that God was triune while others thought he was not. Some thought Jesus was God, others thought he was not. So, the Bible "teaches it" AND it does not teach it.
Now, people who attempt to believe that the entire Bible is in harmony fight endless futile battles over what it means. Since God has always been whatever humankind thinks it is, then God is triune AND it is not.
What strikes me as ironic is that the writers of the Bible had no more clue than anyone else (now or then) as to the nature of God or even its existence. Yet the battles rage on with both sides stubbornly proclaiming that they have the "truth" and that everyone else is wrong.
-- long sigh --
William Huget
Just because you cannot understand what the Bible teaches and its inspired harmony/unity does not mean it does not exist. The Bible is progressive revelation, so we see the trinity hinted at in monotheistic OT and fully revealed in the NT. John and Paul had a better grasp of it than Moses, but that does not mean they believed in different gods or that one is triune and the other not with both being equally valid. You assume the Bible is not true/revelatory, but a triune understanding can be fully established and a JW solitary view and denial of the Deity of Christ can be refuted from its passages (including exposing the errors of NWT).
Andrew
"Just because you cannot understand what the Bible teaches" - yes and apparently neither can you. Every man and his dog has their own interpretation of the book and they all think they are right without providing any evidence for it. When are you going to realise this? You'd think, if god existed, he could have written it a little clearer.
GCS7000
The Watchtower teaching that the number 144,000 mentioned at Revelation 7:4 and 14:1 is literal is just one of many Wathctower teachings which do not amount to a "hill of beans" to anyone but which JWs promote as "the truth" because that is what the "faithful and discreet slave class" teaches. I mean, really, what possible difference could it make to anyone whether the number is literal or symbolic?! Or whether Jesus Christ and Michael the Archangel are the same person? These issues do not affect one's faith in God or in the Bible, yet JWs will pass judgment on people based on their acceptance of these dogmatic beliefs. Oh, and there is no scriptural basis for a so-called "faithful and discreet class" of christians, either.
Trudy Z
GCS7000, I believe you are correct when you said " there is no scriptural basis for a so-called “faithful and discreet class” of christians, either."
I don't believe there is basis for it until the Christ of God arrives to say; "Well done faithful and discreet, now I will appoint you over my household.' When did that ever happen? The gov class assume that because they were trying to do good during the dates between 1914 and 1919, This is the basis of their believing Christ appointed them to govern Christ's sheep; yet they make zero mention of him standing before them in his glory and appointing them personally. It is a huge presumption on their part and so lets compare this with a man who does not own property in Arizona but announces to the world that property in Arizona is now free and they call people to come to get it but the price is just to follow and obey us. * What do you suppose will happen when the real owner of the property discovers what they are doing?
smmcroberts
So, GC S7000, as William's post shows, it matters to those who think the Bible is God's word and to those who have just as strong a belief in their own narrow interpretation of the Bible as the Witnesses do. But to the rest of us, you are right: Who cares?
I would disagree with William on his conclusion as to why JWs are a cult. It has nothing to do with the content of their beliefs (no matter how ridiculous they may be), but rather with how the beliefs are enforced upon their members and how they are denied outside information. What William's example shows is merely why they are considered heretics or "apostates" by mainstream Christianity.
William Huget
I would also concur with WT/JW cultic practices involving mind-control, spiritual abuse, etc. The cult issue is a precise theological issue from a Christian vs secular point of view (so it is both belief and practice, not either/or).
William Huget
Actually truth does matter and error has consequences. Salvation is found in Christ alone and the object of our faith is vital (trusting in a false or counterfeit Christ/money is worthless). The main reason JWs are cultic vs biblical, historical, orthodox Christianity is that they are modern Arians and reduce Christ to created being (Michael/angel) instead of worshipping Him as YHWH (who He really is). This is an essential, salvific issue. Diametrically opposed, mutually exclusive views on God, Christ, gospel, etc. are not equally true/valid. Peripheral issues are another matter (voting, holidays, blood, identity of 144K).
Andrew
"truth matters" says the man who believes in an invisible sky daddy despite there being no evidence and denies evolution despite the tons of evidence...
smmcroberts
"Diametrically opposed, mutually exclusive views on God, Christ, gospel, etc. are not equally true/valid."
I disagree. My book "Falling In Truth" demonstrates in detail how an equally valid argument can be made for and against the Trinity doctrine from the Bible. It all boils down to which Scriptures you want to believe and which ones you want to explain away.
Unfortunately, because people believed the Bible was "God's word" which they would be judged on for following correctly, they burned each other at the stake for having taken opposite sides of the argument. [Now they just engage in "flame wars" on the Internet.] It would've been so much better if they could've admitted that both sides had valid arguments [given their mutual foundational belief that the Bible was true] and that no one knows more than anyone else about the unknowable nature of imaginary, invisible spirit beings. Much less the exact number of people who will go to "heaven"!
William Huget
Either God is triune or He is not. Either the Bible teaches it or it does not. Certainly people see arguments for and against the trinity in the Bible. The few JW Arian texts have been answered from a trinitarian perspective and the JW arguments against the trinity and their misquoting of credible scholars has also been dealt with. Their anti-trinity booklet can be dissected for its logical fallacies, misunderstandings, etc. If you think the Bible can be used for and against the trinity equally so, then you are wrong. I can make a case why it is the biblical view and can expose the weak arguments against it and proof texting vs exegesis. Truth is absolute. JWs are wrong on many things, but that does not mean biblical Christianity is wrong and without evidence. You can reject the Bible and its teachings, but at least get it right as to what it actually says (sometimes the problem is sectarian perversions like NWT, in addition to eisegesis, etc.).
steve chichuk
it's simple math really. a symbolic (negative) multiplied by a symbolic (negative) equals reality (positive) number. :)
so glad i'm outta there.
Buddhagan
I've always wonder why anointed are just JW. Bear with me - assuming one believes in God, wouldn't the 144K be chosen from ALL of mankind? and just how does the person know they are part of this group? Why so secretive? If I were psychic, I would brag about it but I would gladly let folks know how I came upon my ability. And why isn't there a 144K gathering? Wouldn't they want to get together with the GB? Once I've started thinking for myself many things about JW ceased to make sense. What's that term for refusing to use logic and reason even though you know something doesn't make sense?
Simon
In answer to your last question, possibly: Cognitive dissonance.
William Huget
You guys are correct that either the 144K and Jewish issue is literal or both are symbolic. The WT is wrong to limit the heavenly hope/born again to 144K JWs. The Memorial is hyper-unbiblical and robs JWs of God's intended truth for true believers. Jn. 3:3 (even in NWT) undermines their claims, among other verses. The 144K are yet future Jewish Christians converted during the Tribulation (Daniel's 70th week) before Armageddon and the visible Second Coming of Christ (invisible 1914 WT teaching is also false) before His millennial reign. It has nothing to do with believers during this Age of Grace/Church Age between the cross (they are also wrong about torture stake) and the rapture (before the Trib.). The subjective nature of who thinks they are JW anointed, increasing numbers, etc. is a sham. The reality is that no JWs have a heavenly or earthly hope as long as they reject the true God, Jesus, gospel.
smmcroberts
Well, they do have hope in their beliefs, just as you do in yours. No matter how ridiculous those hopes may be.
Angela Smith
I know of exactly 2 people who were calling themselves annointed and recognised by partaking at the memorial. One is in a Psychiatric ward of a hospital and disfellowshipped due to being deemed demonic by their local KH. The other was disfellowshipped for fornication.
Trudy Zelenka
I recently came to the knowledge that Governing Body requires the elders of the congregations to make a vow of loyalty , faithfulness to JW Organization and to the 'faithful and discreet class'. Could this be the reason that so many of the elders are so determined to cast out anyone who says anything negative about the teachings of the governing body? Or, for that matter, even question it's doctrines? Has anyone heard about this vow?
Gilligan
The Elders do not make or take a formal "Vow" of anything. Before their "appointment" they are simply asked by another Elder if there is anything going on in their personal life that would "disqualify" them from being an Elder. Every year hundreds of elders walk out of their Kingdom Halls and never return once they have stumbled upon "the Truth about the Truth."
smmcroberts
What always got me about this is that Revelation goes on to detail that there are exactly 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes (listing out each tribe individually in the Bible's annoyingly redundant way). So, whenever I met an "anointed" person I always wanted to ask them which tribe they belonged to. I'm sure they would've said that was symbolic too. So you take 12,000 from each symbolic tribe and multiply by the 12 symbolic tribes and you come up with 144,000 literal people. You add up symbolic items and somehow they total up to something literal!
It's the same as counting out 12 apples into your basket and proclaiming that you now have a dozen oranges.
It truly is gross.
Trudy Zelenka
When God, through Christ, called his 12 disciples to follow him, the number began with 12, but after preaching the word the number grew and multiplied; therefore the number 12 is the foundation but the Christ is the cornerstone which keeps the foundation standing. Therefore, as the 12 disciples became fully grown in Christ, they became apostles and preached the word and as the word grew, multiplied (the believers who now have the word in them) New Jerusalem keeps growing upon that foundation of 12.. .......12x12 = 144,000 and it keeps enlarging so that no man can number it, only God knows the number of the children of Israel.
smmcroberts
So then why doesn't Revelation list the names of the 12 apostles in place of the 12 tribes of Israel?
So instead of:
Of the tribe of Judah 12,000
Of the tribe of Reuben 12,000
Of the tribe of Gad 12,000
Of the tribe of Aser 12,000
Of the tribe of Nepthalim 12,000
Of the tribe of Manasses 12,000
Of the tribe of Simeon 12,000
Of the tribe of Levi 12,000
Of the tribe of Issachar 12,000
Of the tribe of Zabulon 12,000
Of the tribe of Joseph 12,000
Of the tribe of Benjamin 12,000
(Rev. 7:5-8)
Why doesn't it say:
Of the apostle Peter 12,000
Of the apostle Andrew 12,000
Of the apostle James 12,000
Of the apostle John 12,000
Of the apostle Philip 12,000
Of the apostle Bartholomew 12,000
Of the apostle Thomas 12,000
Of the apostle Matthew 12,000
Of the apostle Thaddeus 12,000
Of the apostle Simon 12,000
Of the apostle James 12,000
Of the apostle Judas 12,000
The last line may spell out the reason: 1/12 of the apostles were dead and had betrayed Jesus, so could hardly act as a foundation for the New Jerusalem.
Frank
I remember back in 1994, the Memorial partakers were numbered at 8,568 and before that in 1993, it was 100 less than that at exactly 8,468 in the respective yearbook years for the aforementioned years. It is funny how that is rising each and every year. Can't the WTBTS make up their minds as to how more or how less the Memorial partakers will be?
If you were to ask an elder in the JW's about this, he would simply say that there are many of those who were a part of the "anointed class" that left the organization and that "Jehovah" himself was looking all over the world for replacements and when they were found, they were added or they might even answer that there were those who partook of the "elements" that weren't part of the "anointed class" and that is why the number of partakers, according to the yearly yearbooks that the WTBTS publishes each year, is why it is at the number that it is.
The mystery question is this: How did it go from 8,568 in 1993, according to the 1994 JW yearbook, to 11,824 18 years later, according to the 2012 JW yearbook? This does boggle the mind, doesn't it? It might even make a good idea for an episode of The Twilight Zone if the show were still running on TV.
I was only involved with the JW's for only two years and that was more then enough for me. I learned so much about them in that brief two year period than I would ever learn in an entire lifetime.
Just thought that I would share some thoughts regarding this. Keep up the good work.










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Rhonda
My parents enrolled me into the TMS at the age of 7. I started writing my own talks with the help of my mother at that age! A few years later, I was left on my own, writing talks, preparing for meetings and additional parts on stage, and trying to balance my homework from school (which was always a LOT). My parents just EXPECTED me to do it ALL with a big f***ing smile on my face. They wonder why I left home at 18 to "run away" from it all? What a delusional life I had. Thankfully, the worst is over!
Trudy Z.
Dear Rhonda,
Yes, that is far too young to be under such pressure and not all have the gifts, everyone is different. The Wt cookie cut their members to do all the same things which I believe can be detrimental.
(1 Cor. 12:28-39)( 1 Cor 13:8-13)
The greatest gift is love.
kimbal
And in line with Becky - My catching up went like this - attending swingers parters, having an affair to see what adultery and fornication was really like, giving into heavy masturbation and watching of hard core porn - virtually breaking every rule in the book - and even doing black magic attacks against the Watchtower society - like summoning demons to attack the anointed remnant and place spells and curses on the governing body as pay back for their child molesting crimes, realizing were are in spiritual war learning as much about the occult as possible in order to hunt Jehovah down like a piece of vermin and have his head on a platter as show piece ; far more aggressively than even Nimrod did.
Other activities also included secretly recording elders conversations and their committee meetings and then forwarding it to outsiders while still a Ministerial servant, helping in the sending out of hundreds and hundreds of Disfellowshipping letters around Australia against the Elders who disfellowshipped certain people I know, exposing some of their personal crimes ( like tax evasion and other illegal goings on ) in writing for all to see,.
As I am condemned and will never be taken back in - I might as well use my remaining years to live life to the full and create as much mayhem and destruction as possible. If its a spiritual war, no one would believe it or take it seriously, even if I exposed it which is half the fun of doing it. At least Satan knows and Jehovah.
At least I will have Satan's support - as when I was a goody-goody witness born raised and bread in it - I did not get Jehovah's support when I really called for it in times of need- rather I got shafted.
Its no wonder a third of Jehovah;s heavenly host walked out and followed Satan I d be asking questions too if it was my organization. Jehovah has a lot of explaining to do - as his representatives and spiritual wife and mother has smeared his name from one side of the earth to the other. I really think God needs to get a divorce - but if the Mother gets full custody of his kids - which the Organization already has ( it owns their soul and even their ability to think for themselves )- then god help us all with the child support agency bill.
Trudy Z.
Dear Kimbal,
I am sorry that you are bitter against God, What makes you believe the Jehovah's Witness religion is God's wife? This teaching is more JW governing body rhetoric . If you recall in your Bible studies, God referred to Israel, which consisted of all the people of Israel, not just a the leaders, but the women, children and men as his wife in a composite way.
What I am saying here is that one should not trust the teachings of a handful of men but rather, go to God's word to see if what they are teaching is in accord to the scriptures. I was born and raised in this religion and finally left after finding error in their doctrines. How did I find error in their doctrines? By deep personal scripture study while in prayer; asking God for 'the truth'. I quickly found that the invitation to be with Christ in his millenium reign is open to all believers. The scriptures use the phrase "IF ANYONE" so many times or 'ANYONE', it does not give a specific number or who the called ones are. Go find a concordance to the scriptures and then look up the word, "ANYONE", Jesus said this", But go and learn what this means: ‘ I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Yes, the heavenly calling ,( the calling from God) is for sinners. He calls sinners to repentance. So if in your mind, the WT "Called ones" are special, they are not! That was a lie perpetrated by the writers of the Watchtower magazine, to make a separation of God's sheep. It is used in order to elevated ones-self above fellow believers. Apostle Paul condemned such things. Right now you are fed up with what you believed was 'the truth', and perhaps in your mind, you may still have some faith in it, I don't know. Some have said, "well if the Watchtower is not true, then nothing else is" and so they toss everything spiritual out and begin a life of debauchery. Instead of doing that, wouldn't it be wise to examine the scriptures? To do what God commands his followers to do, where he said, "This is my son, you listen to him!" ( Mark (:7)
(Psalms 119:2) "Blessed are all those who observes his (Gods') testimonies, who seek him with their whole heart."
While as a Jehovah's Witness, did it ever occur to you to ignore WT doctrine and to just 'listen to the Christ? Were you honestly following Christ or following the Watchtower Organization, who claims to be appointed by God? They keep saying, "Keep in step with 'Jehovah's Organization'. Who said it was even God's organization? The gov body says it, but where is the proof that is true? The numbers of it's growth? No, the scripture says, "Few are the ones finding it" The act of finding, means one must put forth a diligent search, as though seeking treasure. If a particular religion fails you, God will not. He loves you and does not desire to see anyone perish but is patiently waiting for all to come into a relationship with him. ( Romans 2:4) (2 Peter 3:15)
( 2 Peter 3:14-15)
It is not too late to repent and to seek God ( his word, through the Christ) The opportunity is still open.
Frank
Trudy
Another thing has just come to mind in regards to the JW's and their man made doctrinal teachings. This time, it is their annual Memorials of Christ's death. Each and every year, around the time of the week when Easter is about to come, the JW's have their annual Memorials after sundown on which they believe is Nisan 14 on the Jewish/Judeo-Christian calender. Each and every year, in JW churches(i know they say Kingdom Hall's, but in the yellow pages of most phone books, the JW's are listed alphabetically in the churches section) all over the world, they meet and pass the symbols of Christ's body(the unleavened bread)and blood(the glass of wine)in each and every row, with the vast majority of them not partaking of them, which they teach is strictly only for the "anointed class" that is going to Heaven to partake. For the two years that I was with them, I found that teaching very hard to believe, but accepted it without question fearing that I might cause some division and be kicked out as well as subsequently shunned, so I kept quiet.
You see, in the Holy Bible, and again, this is only my belief and I am trying to share it in a very sincere way without being overly preachy and again, if anyone is offended by this, I humbly apologize as I don't mean to offend anyone and if everything is cool, good, and again any offense that I make, I humbly and sincerely apologize, God's own son Jesus Christ said in John 6:53 "unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you." This means that we are all free to have a share in this and not just a "privileged few" as the JW's and the WTBTS says so.
In my church, we have Holy Communion every first and third, and sometimes fifth, Sunday each month. We also have bonus ones around the last week of Lent and Easter as well as Christmas. Two weeks ago, I had a share in Holy Communion for the first time and after partaking, I felt spiritually whole for the first time in my life, which I never thought nor felt that I would ever feel. I never felt spiritually whole while in the JW's for only two years. Each and everything that I did for them two years following that blasted cult left me yearning for more as I was also feeling so all alone as I really had nobody to talk to as I wasn't allowed to associate with my real friends who weren't JW's. It left me yearning more to be around them rather than at the Kingdom of going out on that door to door ministerial work.
Again, I am only sharing what I believe in and I am trying to be sincere and not overly preachy nor forceful in sharing my beliefs. I am not trying to offend anyone and if nobody is, good, but if it happens, I offer my most humblest and sincere apologies.
Thanks again for this wonderful and terrific blog and keep the great work that you're doing coming. Thanks once again from the bottom of my heart.
Frank
Trudy
I couldn't agree with you more or less. It took me a long time to finally realize that and I had to learn all of that the heard way. I think that it's usually better to learn the hard way as it is always a hard lesson learned that you will keep and remember for the rest of your life living on this Earth that God created.
Again, to the facilitators of this blog regarding the God created thing, this is only my belief and I am simply and sincerely sharing it without trying to sound overly preachy, forceful or worst of all, legalistic. I also learned that the JW's and the WTBTS are very legalistic in their approach and again, I learned that the hard way after spending only two years in that terrible cult. Again, regarding the God created thing, again, I am only simply and sincerely sharing my belief without being overly preachy. If I made myself clear, good. If anyone is offended, please accept my humblest apologies as I really didn't mean to offend.
Thanks again for this terrific blog and keep up the good work in exposing and sharing the real truths about the JW's and the WTBTS with the rest of the world. Keep up the terrific work that all of you are doing. Your hard work is always appreciated. Thanks again and again, keep it up.
Andrew
Except god doesn't exist. Or if he does, no one has proven it.
People need to stop preaching. It's actually not nice to be preached at or told we need to 'repent' - everyone has different beliefs and they all think their way is the right way, without providing any evidence. If everyone kept supernatural evidence-less assertions to themselves, the world would be a better place.
Trudy Z.
I apologize if I offended you by sharing scriptures. I have made a habit of always backing up what I say with scriptures. You are right, not everyone has faith in them.
Trudy Z.
I see God in the miracle of the seed, in creation itself; the lines, the art of color, the arrangement of order, the food and it's many flavors and the love in man and affection and loyalty in animals. I apologize if I had offended you by mentioning repentance, but truly God's patience with mankind is for that very purpose.
kimbal
Yes 5 hours a week for me, blew way out over 30 years for me - along with being a Ministerial Servant - having to take the field service group - and run the book study as I was the conductor - and also give public and instruction talks, including congregation prayers - do at least 10 hours per month to set the lead in the congregation - plus practice sessions for District and Circuit Assembly Dramas that my family were in - and dealing with Circuit Overseers visit for special Ministerial Servants and Elders meetings - and having him stay at our house – plus the memorial each year - plus my father did the accounts for the congregation - and I was the literature servant for a while - and I did the quick build kingdom halls designing the sound systems and handling the roving microphones with all there committee meetings I had to attend - --- does anyone want me to keep going ? because I have heaps more commitments over and above what’s listed like bible studies and return visit work, pioneer meetings; etc.
Oh yeah my wife was regular pioneer too and we did this while bringing up our daughter.
My father had to open and lock up the kingdom hall every meeting as he had the keys and a 1 hour meeting was around 4 hours minimum for each meeting we left home at 6pm to pick up bible studies who were elderly and had no car and stayed back to 10.30pm to lock the hall and drop the studies home again, making us kids get into bed around 11-30 pm week nights, so I could stand outside the office for avoiding flag salute the next morning at school - and over 30 years that tantamounts to me, to be a way of life.
The reality is - We sold our soul into theocratic slavery for Jehovah - a god who never answered prayers and never did jack-shit for my family, other than Disfellowship me for asking questions on the chronology of 1914 and 607 and its use as evidence of the holy spirit on the elder body and the faithful & Discreet slave class. If the chronology is wrong, so was the appointment of Holy Spirit, which explains the imperfections ( or technically speaking crimes ) of the Watchtower’s authority structure.
So dear friend that’s where loyalty got me – Nowhere ! Just eternal damnation into Gehenna at Armageddon. That’s what a god of love did for me.
What’s more my parents died around 60yo with serious health problems bought about from for stress in the JWS - so that was at least another 25+ years severed from their lives as well.
Now they are dead and buried, they will never get a resurrection nor the hope of everlasting life because they died as disbelievers in Jehovah’s mouthpiece the FDSC.
And this is from a god who claims he truly loves us and his loving wife, the Faithful SLAVE CLASS.
Yes we are nothing but good for nothing slaves for a blind god who cares not for your life.
Even Satan does not do this to his people.
Hence I am now a dedicated Satanist against Jehovah and his people. Hail Satan !
It’s better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven !
William Huget
Religion and cults (JW) are a tool of Satan. You are not rejecting the holy/loving God when you reject Jehovah of the Watchtower (TM....non-existent). You have a right to be angry with WT, but are wrong to rail against the true God. There is a heaven to gain and a hell to shun. It is a lie of Satan (JWs are not wrong about everything) that you will rule in hell and it is better than worshipping God in heaven. However, if that is what you want, He will respect your free will, a gift of God.
Jennifer
thank you for this. I am not doing math right now your math is close enough. I regular pioneered befroe it was 70 hrs a month..it was 90 hrs a month. I think that changed my last two years for reg pioneering (96 and 97)
basically I wasted 26 years of my entire life dedicated to that
freaking wasted
Pete
Me too, Jennifer! How many times did I calculate my hours to see if I could have a day off in the summer. Between working,meetings,assemblies,service,studying, prepareing for talks,building Kingdom halls and helping the 'weak', elderly, sick, young, because we were guilted into it, by constant peer pressure and brain washing..... Wasted 25 years of my life too!
Becky
I remember trying to explain this to my step-dad when getting in trouble for not doing all of my homework in high school. It didn't matter that after school, all of my time before bed was devoted to homework, meetings, family bible study, and scarfing down a quick dinner (no recreation on weekdays whatsoever). There was absolutely not enough time to finish an hour or two of homework per class each night, with meetings and family bible study breaking up homework time! Of course, that didn't matter, there were other students in the congregation doing fine (in their remedial classes), so according to the asshole.....er, I mean, my step-dad, I should be able to keep up, too. Not surprisingly, I lasted a year before dropping out to pioneer. It makes no sense, but this completely changed things. Instead of my parents treating me as lazy for having incomplete homework assignments, they were now proud of me for not going to school at all!
Moral of the story if you're a young JW: Not going to school is one of the best things you can do with your adolescence. Of course, that is true of much of life amongst JWs. It took me awhile to realize that my self-worth was built on what I had not done. Never watched an R rated movie, never cussed, never went to college, never got even a little bit drunk, the list goes on. But what had I actually done to be proud of? Not as much as most people my age; I've had some catching up to do after leaving the organization, and wow, catching up has been so fulfilling! And quite a bit of fun, too ;)
Clair
Becky, I so identify with your story. The only validation young witnesses receive is for putting their energy into perpetuating the cult. I believe this is one of the most damaging aspects of growing up a JW. As you point out, with nothing to be genuinely, personally proud of, you are totally dependent on that validation to give your individual life at least some illusion of meaning.
Buddhagan
Just goes to show that it is virtually impossible to reg pioneer and have fulltime job.
William Huget
This is one of many reasons why many JWs are stressed, depressed, mentally ill, etc. Their god is a taskmaster, the WT.
William Huget
The religious treadmill of a works vs grace/faith religion is onerous. It would not be bad if it was all true and helped one have assurance of eternal life, Paradise, or whatever. It is horrific that all of this dedication to a manmade taskmaster organization will be as filthy rags in the end. Guilt, duty, etc. is no substitute for a love relationship with God by grace through faith in Christ. Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Mormons, etc. are in the same sinking boat. Unfortunately, too many grace Christians do not invest time, energy, money in eternal vs temporal things. JWs organization/man hours are impressive at one level, but what matters is the heart before God.
Frank
William
"no substitute for a love relationship with God by grace through faith in Christ"
I
Frank
I couldn't agree more or less. It sums up what Jesus Christ said in 14:6 when he said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man come to the father except through me".
I found that out the hard way. Thanks William.
Frank
After two years, the meetings and everything connected with the JW's became a burden. I really didn't count the hours that I spent within that cult, but it was quite a bit of them that I spent. I did everything from attending the Sunday meetings, to going to book studies, to going to those Thursday night Theocratic Ministry School, including giving talks up on the podium, which I gave quite a bit of during my two years in them, to the Kingdom Ministry meetings and going out in the field service on Saturday's, which was my only free day to go out on the door to door ministry. It was quite a lot and my enthusiasm and zeal was great when I first started, but later became a boring ritual as those two years were winding down. As a result of some negative things that happened, I lost my enthusiasm for it and my zeal for it all just died. I didn't enjoy it anymore and when I shared my feelings with an elder, he simply showed me that scripture in Revelation 2:4 where the Church in Ephesus didn't have the love they initially had when they were first shown "the truth" and I was thinking of leaving at that point, but the elder talked me into staying with " 'THE' Truth" and to keep on doing what I was doing and my enthusiasm and zeal will come back. Unfortunately, it, being my initial enthusiasm and zeal coming back, never happened and I dropped out in August 1994 when they went away to their annual district convention in Rochester, NY. I left that cult 18 years ago and I never looked back. I was thinking of returning in 2002, but the pedophile protecting scandal that was brought to the US' public's attention that year made me change my mind about returning. To this day, I refuse to worship with anyone or any group that hides and protects child molesters and does little if nothing to protect their victims, which are the children that are the real victims in this alongside their, the children's, families. The abused children are not the only victims in the molesting, but also the children's entire family suffers as a result of the molestations.
Up until September of last year, for 17 years, I was afraid of going to any other worship place as a result of those terrible man made doctrinal teachings of the JW's. I was afraid to set foot in any other church. I was a member of a church before the JW's, but abandoned my membership in it to jump on the bandwagon of the JW cult, which was a terrible mistake. But when I had heard of Barbara Grizutti Harrison, who wrote Visions of Glory, I learned that she was also a former JW as her mother forced her into it because her mother left the Roman Catholic Church to jump on the JW bandwagon and forced Barbara into it as well. But when her mother died, Ms. Harrison abandoned the JW cult and was agnostic until she wrote Visions of Glory, where with the book, she claimed to have reached a spiritual epiphany and returned to the Roman Catholic Church, where she remained devout until her death in 2002. I felt that if she could return to her old church, why couldn't I return to the church that I left to jump on the bandwagon of the JW cult. I returned to my old church, which is Lutheran, last year and now that I am a member again, I am now overjoyed to be back as the church where I worship at is very loving, friendly and also, the Lutheran Church as a whole, I found, is more doctrinally correct than anything that the JW's or the WTBTS teach. I am glad to be back in the church and I am never leaving it again to jump on the bandwagon of any religious cult. I am going to be Lutheran until the day that I die.
Thanks for this blog. This blog is a great way to get the truth about the JW's to the rest of the free world out there. Keep up the great work that you do and I will be checking back regularly.
Pete
Totally agree! How did you manage to only do one hour in Field service. That would make you 'weak'... Hmmm, not sure if I would have associated much with you. You should have 'started your time' before the field service group, that way you can count the travel/mingle/territory dish out/travel parts (technically you can't count the field service meeting in your time, unless you are whispering truths to an unbaptised publisher). Then you would have been at least an 'average publisher'... :)
Speedi
4 hours a day minimum on average over 25 years. 100,000 hours. 11.5 years of life. Damn.
Speedi
oops bad math....4 hours a day minimum on average over 25 years. 36,000 hours. 4.2 years of life. Damn.
i feel just a little better lmao
Sally
Holy cow, it really does add up! My after-meeting mingling usually lasted longer because my husband was an elder. When I was really trying to be zealous I used to look up all of the references in the big red index for the entire bible reading assignment and take notes What a waste of time that was, not to mention the hours I spent pioneering.
They always used to say that "The Truth" was a way of life, not just a religion.
Pete
yup, Sally, I hear you! I was the 'elder' stuck in the meetings AFTER the meeting, bombarded with other 'congregational duties'. Then invariably, our book study group had the Kingdom Hall cleaning and I was the only one left... What an amazing system. Total volonteer slavery....
Flo Dimartino
Mother still makes my sister and I go to the meetings every week,though she stopped making us go out in service a while ago. We also have to attend all special assemblies and such...I've gotten very good at pretending to be sick.(Red food dye works well for a sore throat,so long as you don't get any on your hands.) So about four or five hours per week, depending on whether or not I'm able to weasel my way out of it. My poor sister attends a public magnet school,they always drown her in homework. Meeting definitely interrupts her schedule.(She gets on the bus at 7:45.the bus doesn't arrive here until 5:00. She normally spends two or three hours doing homework and has to go to bed early. Tuesday night meetings make this impossible. Damn that worldly education!)
I feel extremely bad for my Mother,the amount of guilt she feels after missing a meeting is terrible. Last night she got home late from the store and didn't have enough time to get ready. She said,"If I'm going to be missing meeting,I'm going to make it last!" Then she started to obsessively clean the bathroom and yell at us. Yikes.
Pete
Wow Flo! That is so typical of young people in the 'truth'. Deep down, everyone would like to skip out on the meetings, but guilt drives them. We used to have snow storms and everyone (especially elders that had meeting parts to deliver), was secretly hoping the snow would cancel the meeting and we would have a normal family night.. There were always the keeners though that would drive through impossible conditions and prove their faith to the others who didn't trust enough in Jehovah and stayed off the roads.... All that guilt, peer pressure, hypocrisy, even lying to stay away from meetings that happens. No wonder your mom was yelling and no wonder folks hide away their depressing in this cult...










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joy
Marlanda,
I am so sorry that this happened to you. You are not alone. I love the courage you show when you say that you have had enough of silence.
You can live a healthy, happy life where you are free to decide what it is that you believe, where you are safe and you don't have to live in reaction to this awful crazy cult.
Nurture your inner life, be kind to yourself; read, research, and educate yourself. You may have to move, to start over, but a better life is possible.
I'm so glad that you won't be kept silent. Keep speaking out. Follow your truth and everything else will follow.
MARLANDA
People it happens more than u think! My mother & step father were both one of Jehovah's Witnesses. My uncle was overseer of the congregation @ the time. The most traumatic time for me was when my step father was molesting me on the way to the hospital in the ambulance. The paramedic saw him. I am sure he was in shock too. The paramedic told the doctor. Child protective services were brought in. They made him leave the home, but my mother still refused to press charges! She told me she believed me, but she still continued to see him. Even after knowing what the paramedic saw! My uncle knew about this & he never reported this to the police! THEY COVERED THIS UP! My step father was sick! I have suffered sooo much because of this! No one seems to want to try to make it right. My family would like it if I am just quiet. I WON'T BE QUIET! I WON'T SHUT UP! I HAVE BEEN DAMAGED! My step father was not disfellowshipped for what he did to me. My mother & my uncle sent me the message that I was not ever more important than the reputation of the organization! I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF SILENCE!
joy
Marlanda,
I am so sorry that this happened to you. You are not alone. I love the courage you show when you say that you have had enough of silence.
You can live a healthy, happy life where you are free to decide what it is that you believe, where you are safe and you don’t have to live in reaction to this awful crazy cult.
Nurture your inner life, be kind to yourself; read, research, and educate yourself. You may have to move, to start over, but a better life is possible.
I’m so glad that you won’t be kept silent. Keep speaking out. Follow your truth and everything else will follow.
faby
Well, as of this date Dec. 15, 2012 what is the updated information on this brave lady and the society. I am a non JW but my wife and kids are and that is my concern. For approximately ten years they have assisted a local congregation with no problem,that i dont know. But now with this news i am worried. Please keep me posted on any further updated information.
Hal
Yes, those con-artists (WTBTS) do own properties world-wide and are not financially destitute in any form or manner.
Here' an example: My father was a financially wealthy man who owned real estate in Victoria, B.C. and owned outright one of the newest and large Penthouses in Vancouver, B.C. woth millions of dollars.
Upon his death he willed it all to my mother, a devout J.W.
My mother then bestowed or willed it all in it's entirety to the WBTS with the sanctamonious promise that she would not have to worry, as they (WTBS) would take care of her for life, in her old age.
She is not allowed to have any dealings with me, her blood son, due to me being dis-fellowshiped for apostasy because l rejected their teachings.
At present she resides in cheap seniors citizen day care home in Vancouver and receives Welfare. She has been brainwashed by the WTBTS not to have any contact we me for nefarious reasons.
So much for God's visible earthly organization! What a bunch of twisted malicious demented frauds.
I'm glad l'm not associated with the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, alias Jehovahs Witnesses.
Amen----
P.S. The do have billions of dollars in assets and real estate. Check it out (verify) for youself on the internet.
Becky
This is just one more story of lives ruined,lost,mislead.My heart was broken to finally realize just how corrupt the WTBTS really has been and are. My whole adult life was molded by lies.I did not finish school,I married a man from the congregation ,(who's dad was an elder) instead of a "worldly man that I loved". It is a sad and long story,of brain washing,fear of dis fellowship,fear of loosing god's favor,fear of not living into the paradise promised( before I could get old enough to die).No savings ,no more children,not allowed to ask questions, separated from a lot of my family .No help when my husband left us( spiritual help).No consideration for mental health such as depression.Seeing molesters in the congregation with no protection for the children. (a few victims of which were my own family members) If god is real, I thank him for Candace having the courage to prove, that the stand the WTBT society takes on child abuse ,is so very ungodly .The blood of the innocent are on their hands.
Anne Marie DeSoto
And once again, the Almighty Tower WINS!!!
Frank
Anne Marie
No so fast. The WTBTS has only appealed the court ordered settlement. It isn't over yet. The WTBTS's chances of winning are slim to none. They will lose this appeal and it will lose it big time. As a wise man once said "It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings!" or also "It ain't over 'til it's over" When it is over, it will be curtains for the WTBTS. It will be big news all over the country and the world. Stay tuned.
Deranged Jdub
This issue is near and dear to all of us. It's also emotionally impacting all of us. Other than my own judicial committee and disfellowshipping this ranks at the top as far as upsetting emotionally. I may get some boo hisses for this, but isn't the WBTS acting like any other corporation (for its own best interest) trying to lessen the impact on its' bottom line? A corporation would try any loophole at its' disposal to get out of paying. The silver lining is that the Catholic Church already popped it's pedophile lawsuit cherry, and the legal system has established legal precedent regarding these cases. The J-Dubs will end up paying either to Candice directly or legal manutiae. Bleed them dry, and it is still a win.
Frank
This just goes to show all of us here how ignorant, immature and asinine both the JW's and the WTBTS really are. This really doesn't surprise me. If they were smart, they would simply pay the court ordered settlement and keep quiet. Instead, they appeal the court ordered ruling and try to persuade the judge to reverse the order or to simply reduce the court ordered amount to a smaller, much more cheaper dollar amount and are hoping that God will be on their side through all of this. Boy, the JW and WTBTS web is/are really a tangled one(s), aren't they? How can the JW's and the WTBTS expect the courts in California to even think of doing that unrealistic thing? If I were the judge, I would simply tell both the JW's and the WTBTS to simply be quiet and pay the court ordered money due Candace Conti for all of her pain and suffering that she endured when a lowly member of the human race used her as his little sexual play thing for his own pleasure. By doing that, that man made Ms. Conti into a statistic and that is something that no human being wants to be at all.
Not only that, what really takes the cake here is the JW's and the WTBTS are now saying that this settlement would really bankrupt them if they pay Ms. Conti all of that money. All I can say here is "Baloney!" They will never ever be without money as their devoted following will always part with much of their hard earned dollars and cents to help keep the WTBTS from sinking and going broke. They will always have money at their disposal no matter what happens in the end.
Not only that, if this appeal drags on and turns into years, the WTBTS will probably have to pay more as interest is also collected on the unpaid money. This 17 million dollar settlement could turn into $60-70 million or more dollars down the road if the appeal drags on for years. Still, their devoted followers will be there to rescue them if that were to ever happen.
The JW's and the WTBTS will never learn and that also doesn't surprise me in the slightest at all, either.
Hal
Those sicko 'parasite maggots' just don't give up. What a menace to civilized society. They certainly are not endeared to me in any forum or platform. Amen
Refried truth
Watchtower society crying poor is more fraud for God subterfuge.
All total the fabulously wealthy WBTS has $200 BILLION in worldwide mostly tax free real estate assets.
They are/were the largest tax free land owner in Brooklyn N.Y.
Remember the Jews are 3 million strong in Brooklyn more Jews in Brooklyn than Israel.I love Jews no anti semitism here,just pointing out that Jews are wealthy and succesful and yet the WBTS tops the Jews in land/money.
Think about that and all of it.....
Dyllen
Now the WTS say they are broke? Well, they are not broke YET, but justice has been served and now they are begging the judge to make the bond smaller just so they can keep the rest of their money to themselves! I'm surprised by these sickos...what planet are they living on? WTS is going down!
Tim Riches
The judge will most likely deny the motion to reduce. This is a desperation move on the part of the Watchtower lawyers. It is thoroughly pleasing to see this bunch 'tapping out', but there will be no quarter given.
Pete
Woohoo! Bring the harlot down!










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Frank
smmcroberts
The JW cult will forever say that they are the only Christians and that everybody else isn't Christian at all. They will always say that in their own way. Not only that, the JW's will always have their sympathizers and most of them who sympathize with them aren't even JW's, but they still defend and sympathize with them. The JW's will always use double standards in their arguments. Their arguments are with the rest of the world, including, but not limited to, people who reject them initially, former followers who became apostates and former would be hopeful followers, such as myself, who became apostates. It is a never ending siege of doctrinal attacks, legalistic attitudes and simply opinionated statements that they love to call "doctrinal truths" and "THE truth" The JW's will forever chauvinistically claim to be "THE truth". "THE one true Christian congregation on Earth", "God's one and only true organization" and all others sorts of ways that they claim to be who they really are not at all.
The thing that really makes me sick is the way they ineffectively handle child sex abuse cases in their fold. They simply sweep it under the rug and forget about it while their victims, the children suffer intense emotional pain, shame, hurt, and have feelings that they are dirty from being used as if they were simply a little plaything that gets discarded when the perpetrators get tired of them. The JW's and WTBTS simply let it happen and refuse to do anything right about it, which is to inform the local authorities and let them handle the cases of child sex abuse and molestations. It makes me sick because I am a victim of child sexual abuse myself at three separate intervals of my life while I was growing up. No, none of them were JW's as I was only a follower of them for only a brief two years of my life when I was in my early 20's. These things happened when I was still a young child. Still, it doesn't make no difference. I was a victim as much as those who were molested by trusted older men in the JW's were victims.
It is now wonderful that these hypocrites are being exposed for who they really are. I am also happier that I dropped out of them after following them for two years. I don't know how I would have felt if I had found out about these things while still following the JW's and the WTBTS teachings and being seduced(for lack of a better word)by their tactics and the way that they like to "shove it". Thank goodness that I dropped out when I did in 1994. I am now glad and happy that I am no longer under their brainwashing spell.
Thanks again to Andrew and Teeny for all their great work in exposing the truth of the terrible, troublemaking and destructive JW cult. The both of you are doing a spectacular job. Keep it up.
smmcroberts
Quote from JwDefender: "jw are more Christians then church goes, n u know about jah and u rejected him this rose west hasn’t heard of jah before n this is her chance to repent n if jah sees her right heart condition its for him to judge not us"
What a great defense, JwDefender: "We're more Christian than you!"
"No, we're more Christian than you guys!"
"Are not!"
"Are so!"
It's on the level of two kids bickering, and the argument is just as persuasive.
You say it's up to Jah to judge Rose West: not us. Yet you have judged us. That's a double-standard, especially when we've done nothing Biblically wrong by merely disagreeing with and pointing out the Watchtower's lies.
If Jah "sees a right heart condition" in a torturer and murderer then his judgment is perverted. You are worshiping and defending the wrong god: one manufactured by -- and indistinguishable from -- the Watchtower Society.
Marie
Stupid !
Andrew
Thank you for your well thought out comment that really brought something to the discussion.
Misti
Excellent information and right on the money! I left 5 years ago...best choice I have ever made! They consider me an apostate, too. I consider myself a decent, free-thinking individual with my own spiritual and moral compass. I'm going to be 39 in March and am a sophomore in college. The mantra "Avoid independent thinking" is so ludicrous to me now! My kids are enjoying all the wonderful things I missed out on and are blossoming for it. I love the fact that my critical thinking processes started to really kick in after a few months of higher education. Nothing and no one I have lost along the way compares to the freedom I've gained in the last five years. Including my dad.
smmcroberts
Thanks, Frank.
The image is a detail from Salvador Dali's "Geopoliticus Child Watching the Birth of the New Man"
http://salvadordalipaintings.b...
It reminds me of how I was struggling to be reborn back into the world after leaving the JWs.
When I was a Witness I had a large hardcover artbook of Dali's paintings which I destroyed because a Witness told me he was "demonized". As if we could know how a demon would paint!
Dali has always been my favorite artist, and since leaving the WT religion I have acquired several books of his paintings, and enjoyed visiting the Dali museum in Florida some years ago.
Frank
@ smmcroberts
I like the pic next to your name. That happens to be the cover photo art of the James Gang album Newborn. That is really sleek and cool. I happen to have that album myself on vinyl and on 8-Track. I have had this album for a long time as I bought this album on vinyl in a Salvation Army thrift store during the time that I was following the JW's and I dared not tell them that I had this.
Why?
They would have told me to get rid of the album as a result of the cover artwork being Satanic in nature. When it is simply a cover of a man coming out of an egg, which has nothing to do with devil worship or anything connected to Satanism. It is simply a harmless piece of artwork and nothing else.
Thanks for being a part of this blog and Thanks again for Teeny and Andrew for all their insight and hard work on this blog. The both of you are doing a great job in warning people about what that terrible JW cult are all about. Please keep up the good work.
Frank
@ smmcroberts
Don't forget the JW's reputation for their ineffectiveness of handling cases of pedophilia in their fold. They are known for hiding and protecting child molesters and doing little if nothing to help their victims, which are the children being molested by those perverts who prey repeatedly on children and nothing is done to help the children, but the pedophile deserves more than the children do. I am angry at this thing regarding that ineffectiveness of not really handling child molestation cases properly by going to the authorities and reporting them for preying on children and protecting the children by letting the perpetrator get what they truly deserve for victimizing a child by sexually abusing them. When I heard about this, I was glad that I dropped out of them when I did, because I might've been kicked out and shunned if I would have made any protests about this thing to them. I am glad to be out and I am glad that I am now smarter in that I would not follow them by jumping on their bandwagon like I did when I was in my early 20's.
@ Karen
I have also embraced the Lord myself. I returned to the church last year and have been a reinstated member as of last month. I am now happier to be back within the church, learning the truth about God's Word, learning how to love my neighbor as myself, and just letting myself go to let others who worship with me show how much they love me, and how the really love having me around to worship with them every week. I also share in Holy Communion with my fellow Christians and that is truly wonderful as every time that I have a share in Holy Communion, I feel spiritually whole when I do, which is something that I never felt when I was following the JW's and being on their bandwagon. The JW's are the worst religious cult in the world and also, the world's worst troublemakers. They have nerve to chauvanistically claim that they "the one true Christian congregation on Earth", and then do all other sorts of things that are wrong and immoral, such as hiding and protecting pedophiles from authorities and doing little if nothing to protect their victims, which are the children that are being molested or have been molested. If they were really "the one true Christian congregation on Earth", they would never ever do that heinous thing. Karen, we can both Thank our Heavenly Father and his son Jesus Christ that we are in their light and and are following them rather than some man made organization who chauvanistically claim to be "the one true way to God and Christ" and not count anyone else as a result of them, which are non-JW's, not following their example.
Thanks to the both of you for your posts and insight.
Harry Cotterill
I think it dreadfully sad that people such as those associated with this website feel so embittered and unchristian with regard to other people. Rosemary West (as she was always referred to in the news reports of her crimes & those of her husband) is just another imperfect human - like you and I. We all NEED a relationship with the Almighty, we NEED the faith that the ransom sacrifice of His own beloved son is the ONLY way to salvation! Rosemary West may or may not have come to this realisation, I don't know because I have not met her, or anyone who knows her, but none of us, including the writer of this blog, can sit in judgement of her, that right is reserved for the One who is the Judge of all.
I left Jehovah's Witnesses and turned my back on God and His Son for many, many years, but now, like thousands of others who have known Him and fallen away, i have been drawn back by His hand and am happily able to serve Him again with the hope of Salvation thru' His Son once again! I am so grateful for God's mercy and loving kindness, and as one of Jehovah's Witnesses once again, I pray for all those who are yet to come to know Him and His Son.
Karen Milton
@ Harry, please know that every person who comments on this website has different beliefs. The authors will describe themselves as athiests. Others may be muslims etc. I fall within the category of being a born-again Christian who has never been a JW. I know that the Jehovah I serve is real & that Rose West is capable of change and redemption for the work in which Christ has done for us on the cross. (His death is not in vain). And she can be forgiven by the Almighty, not by "works" (however this may be counted by the WTBTS in Rose West case as she is in prison and not free to do street preaching etc) lest she boast (Eph 2:8-9)
I think you miss the point of this blog. The authors are not judging what you and I believe about Jehovah and His powers of forgiveness, but rather the shunning treatment that so many have suffered at the hands of this organisation. It is a great irony and un-fairness that families and friendships have to be broken up because some "man-made" organisation just loves to feel empowered in controlling people's lifes like a bunch of puppets.
Wake up! Open your eyes! You say that so many like yourselve have left and gone back. I believe that is an exaggeration based on many statistical reports (but I don't fault you for your exaggeration). Nonethess I thank God that many are falling away from this destructive organisation and I pray you find your way out soon. This organisation is full of lies and false prophecies and emotional blackmail, destroying families and people's life. That is the harsh reality!
smmcroberts
Harry,
You think it's dreadfully sad that we judge a serial killer, but it's evidently okay with you for your organization to judge us as "mentally diseased liars" just because we point out their mistakes.
Let me reiterate the point I've made repeatedly here: it doesn't matter what you believe, only what you do.
I don't have any problem with you believing that a god of loving kindness and mercy has drawn you back into a mind-controlling, highly judgmental cult. But when you lead people into sacrificing their children over your belief that blood transfusions are sinful, then I have a big problem. Again: it's what you do that matters, not what you believe (except insofar as what you believe leads you to immoral actions.)
I don't care if a serial killer now believes in the Christian formula for her own salvation. That does nothing to bring back her tortured and murdered victims. God cannot forgive her; he has no right to. The only people who have a right to forgive her are her victims and their family members. Since her victims are dead, Rose cannot be forgiven: ever.
Andrew
Eloquently put, Steve - I was going to reply to Harry but I'd only be repeating what you and Rob have already said (and the non-religious parts of Karen's comment). Thanks folks!
Rob Crompton
Er, yes, it is this non-judgmentalattitude towards wrongdoers that prevents the abusive practice of disfellowshipping and shunning which is evident in other groups such as, er...
Teeny
Harry, I personally never thought anyone would have championed the Rosemary West Fan Club, but it looks as though I was wrong, oh so very wrong.
I could go on, but to be honest your comment has thrown me right off.
Regards,
The author of this blog.
Karen Milton
@ Sue Corradi & so many of you...... I am so sorry that u face this type of heartbreak. I know it cannot be easy. I do not believe in the shunning doctrine whatsoever. Simply because the scriptures within the Bible in which the WTBTS & JW's quote as reasons for shunning are taken out of context (as I have seen this cult do with many other scriptures). 1 Corinthians 5, Paul outlined limiting association with Christians that practice wrongdoing, not strict shunning. If anyone reads 1 Corinthians 5:11, it should be noted that Paul is speaking about a "brother" and to avoid much association with such. Nonetheless, Paul explicitly refers to this person as still a "brother". Also, Jehovah's Witnesses do not disfellowship greedy persons..... (there are so many more to be said about these scriptures, when studied in its original text and taken in the right context shows that the WTBTS is so far off its mark)
The fact that many of you are shunned by friends and family members is so unbiblical and un-Godly. But thankfully many people's eyes are being opened to see the falsehood and hyprocrisy behind this cult. It's just as the issue of blood (so many practicing JW's are not even fully educated on this issue to discuss it with their own "bible students") The doctrine of blood has evolved to where its a conscience matter if a JW wants to utilize "fractions" of blood. Why would you want to benefit from even the fractions of it, when you adamantly refuse to even give blood to save lives? The shunning doctrine is just as hypocritical.
I thought that DF/DA JW's were shunned by non-family members but family members could have still spoken to them. At least that's what I know and see here in my country Trinidad & Tobago. But I realise that everyone's experience is different and some are unfortunately shunned by their own loved ones. To think of myself giving birth to a child and taking care to him/her to now face shunning from them. NOBODY deserves that. Unless you are someone like Rose West.
Sue Corradi
It's not often after 10 years that I feel so strongly that I just HAVE to post, but this is sick I left and tried to leave quietly, in the process my two sisters, five nephews, my son and his wife are compelled to pass me in the street. Yet this piece of evil shit, who murdered, tortured, sexually abused and buried those poor innocent kids under her and her husbands back yard is welcomed with open arms!!! WTF, yet SHE would ostensibly be welcome in MY families' home..
Sick, sick sick, class 101, for being grateful for knowing the truth about 'the truth'..still, this hurts :(
Griffin
You've all missed the point... if, as the witnesses claim to belive that ultimately God, as the only reader of hearts, is the judge, then why are we (witness or not) making judgements by disfellowshipping, shunning etc...
At the end of the day, the truth should have nothing to fear. It is the truth & it should be willing and able to stand up under the harshest scrutiny. if it is inded the truth, that fact will be borne out. It's like those who get all offended over cartoons of their god and then rush out as his defenders to kill anyone who dare perpetrate this evil sin.
To SAY that god is judge, but then to effectively be the judge themselves is kinda blasphemous!
Normally, my reaction to idiots is... "meh, live and let live... as long as you don't harm anyone". But this stuff DOES harm!
Rob Crompton
Hmm, she can, of course, witness to fellow prisoners. And if she does, will she report time in ministry to the local KH?
Matilda Jamison
Forgiveness and redemption are in God's ballywick. With haven to none do as you will. Your rights stop where mine begin. I assume God allows man the honor o f deciding someone's fate who had grieviously crossed someone else's rights....but otherwise treat everyone with respect.
Andrew
Hi Matilda, I'm not too sure I get what you are saying - do you think a serial killer like Rose West should be treated with respect, while it's okay for normal ex-Jehovah's Witnesses to be disrespectfully shunned?
kimbal
I know some of you wont believe this - but there are clever ways around the Unforgivable Sin.
The techniques are outlined in some of the very extreme black books of the Occult and even in Jesus own words to his disciples within the Gnostic texts of the Pistis Sophia. ( Refer to Books 4 - 6 )
Magick was not forbidden for no reason - as it held the keys to unearthing solutions to these crimes and Jehovah wanted them stamped out in order to retain CONTROL through FEAR.
Contact me if your really want to l know more. I don't hunt down Jehovah and "want his head on a chopping block" for no reason - I would not do this if believed he was the supreme being. Even Satan & Nimrod knew this - and 33% of the Angels who walked out of heaven !
Unforgivable Sin - proves Jehovah holds life long grudges to all eternity - so he can't be a God of unconditional love then ! just shows us and especially me he is the gross liar he's always been. He does not change !
Andrew
Are you serious or are you just making up crap as you go along? 33%? "Magick" is real? You're right, some of us won't believe this because it's just a load of rubbish.
Dyllen
That's confusing, yet so understandable! They say apostates are bad and will die at Armageddon, and on the other hand, they say it's up to Joofvah to decide who will die? Heck, it makes me sick seeing the JWs shake hands with a murder, yet run from you? What's worse? Hanging out with a JW murder in disguise or an innocent apostate who just found out the Traumatic society is a man-made religion? You decide.
Catherine Walters
Quite frankly, its a good thing Rose West has been converted to the cult of Jehovah's Witnesses. We can consider it part of her punishment.
noh8inmyheart
Good one!
Danmera
Haha! Best comment ever haha.
Julia Barrick Douglas
I read several of the books about the crimes committed by the Wests. They raped and murdered their own children. Rose showed her warped nature at a very young age. Funny how she only 'repented' after being locked up. Fred was a total pervert and also of very low intellect... He was also raised in an incestuous family. I'm not saying that Rose victimized Fred but I am saying that she was equally evil and very much a willing participant in the torture, degradation, brutality and deaths of their children and other young girls. I equate her with the likes of Karla Homolka... She'll probably be the next to become a JW... Snort!
Frank
@ Flo
That is exactly my point as I brought up in my comment about this story. I concur. It is truly sickening.
Flo Dimartino
Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but isn't it impossible for psychopaths like Ms. West here to change? Very unlikely she is a sincere convert. Either way,this is definitely sickening.
Spankfish
Shame her hubby isn't still around, he'd be a massive help on quick builds. Plus he could keep up his "hobby", using the footings of the kingdom halls.
Frank
I really don't see a point of converting a prisoner who is serving a life sentence who will never be freed as a result of their heinous crimes. What can Ms. West do by converting to the cult? She will never be let out of prison to do the door to door ministerial work that the cult is famous, or infamous depending on your point of view, for doing. Her only option is to go cell to cell doing this, which sound ridiculous if you ask me. It doesn't make any sense. I guess that the JW's and the WTBTS are devout practicers of insanity and it is something that the they are very good at.
I also guess that this is further proof that the JW's and the WTBTS are paradise for people who commit heinous crimes against humanity. I am not even going to try and think what will be happening next. Did anyone hear in the news about the JW arrested for murdering a fellow JW? It actually makes me sick. It also makes me even more glad that I dropped out of this terrible cult when I did. I wouldn't have wanted to be in that cult when this start started happening. I think that I would have thrown up if I were still in that cult and this stuff was happening.
Thanks again to both Andrew and Teeny for all their great work. Keep it up. The world has the right to know the truth about this dangerous, terrible and destructive cult. I wish that I knew the truth about them before I started getting involved in them in the early 1990's.
Tiffany
First and foremost, get your information straight. If you stayed long enough, then you would realize that there have been ex-apostates that have come back into the truth. Speaking against the spirit is something truly unforgivable, that is, if you do not turn abck by the time Armageddon comes. If you do truly repent from being an apostate then yes, it is forgiven. You should go to the meetings and actually ask questions instead of assuming. Ultimately, Jehovah judges and you will find out whether he forgives apostates that have come back to the truth. Learn to read the Bible correctly instead of going off on one thing said. Apparently, you don't have faith. Don't make something bigger than what it is about people leaving for pride, greed, etc. Some people leave because of differing circumstances, not just because of the little insert that you noted above.
Geowyn
Tiffany, read the true definition of apostate rather than believing what the Watchtower says, then comment.
Teeny
Well said Tiffany!
You go girl!
Or better yet, read a little. I know it might hurt at first, but give it a go. If it kills you, you'll know that you'll be resurrected, unlike Andrew and myself...
Let me know when you've gone and read the links Andrew so lovingly provided for your kind (and at the proper time).
Just in case you didn't notice, I was being sarcastic. Harsh, I know, but it's a necessary evil when one wants to convey anything to a brainwashed individual like your kind self.
Don't beat yourself up about it though love. Just think, tonight, tomorrow, or on Thursday, you'll be at the meeting with your kin, whilst we - the despicable spawn of Satan, will be lounging around watching porn, sacrificing babies to Satan, or simply reading the Gigas Codex - a habit you should seriously consider. That's reading, not the Gigas Codex.
Now then, what's the word that viscerally explains your frustration? You know, when you lodge your tongue between your lower lip and gum in protest at how we're in 2012 but still have to deal with buffoons? Whatever the word is, that's how our girl Tiffany has made me feel.
As I said, you go girl!
smmcroberts
Tiffany,
You are right: there are apostates who have "come back into the truth". I am one of them. In fact I "came back into the truth" by becoming an apostate!
As for Rose, Andrew makes a good point: she will die before Armageddon, and then, according to the WT she will be resurrected. I need to add her to our "Most Wanted" list of criminals destined for resurrection (http://smmcroberts.net/blog/to.... Then we can put her in prison immediately in the New Order to serve out the rest of her sentence and protect all of the JW children. Unless of course the GB decides to leave them as unprotected as they do today.
Andrew
Tiffany, if I died today, that'd be it. I'd not be resurrected as I am 'unforgivable'. If Rose West died today, according to the Watchtower Society, she can be forgiven (wages that sin pays is death) and resurrected. Rose West would not even need to repent. Death would pay the price for her sins. On the other hand, as an apostate, even my death is not enough to cover my sins. Your point is therefore completely vacuous. This shows that Jehovah (if he exists) and Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Rose West's horrific crimes are not as bad as my own 'sin' of being an apostate. What is so hard to understand about that? I haven't twisted anything out of context. I even gave you references in my article.
"Some people leave because of differing circumstances, not just because of the little insert that you noted above" That was my point - The Awake didn't mention that bit. It wasn't me who left it out. It was the Awake that left it out! I find it astonishing that I often know more about Jehovah's Witnesses religion than its members do. Click on the link in the article or go look it up on your Watchtower CD-ROM. Of course you won't - as like all Jehovah's Witnesses, you aren't actually interested in the truth and suffer from pre-confirmation bias.
No, of course I don't have faith. What gave it away?
Yes, ex-apostates can come back to 'the Truth' but they can not be forgiven according to the Watchtower, so they know they'll die and that's it - no resurrection. I never said apostates don't repent. I said they aren't forgiven.
Yet another example of a believer coming along and ranting about lies this and apostate that when the facts are RIGHT THERE in front of them.
ZENODotus
The watchtower you cite, state it clearly "some people" not "all people" or "all who are apostates"... The fact is that all Jehovah's witnesses know that there are expelled members you will never see on the Internet or bashing the Jehovah's witnesses belief. Further in the citation you see that they don't dare to make the judgement. The fact is that you fill the blanks in, and present it in that manner to your readers... So you intend what it says, while it doesn't say that... Jehovah's witness belief is that those coming out of armageddon are Jehovah's witnesses, so if you are not a Jehovah's witness when Armageddon comes you're screwed ;) About dead people or who sinned against holy spirit they have their thoughts but don't publish it in a manner who is certain.
Frank
@ ZENODotus
The JW's and the WTBTS continue to shove that belief down the throats of all naive people who inadvertently get involved with them and then continue to shove more of their other beliefs down their throats once they hook them into their fold. They really sold them to me when I was young, naive and vulnerable and I swallowed everything hook line and sinker as they had me really convinced that they were "the one true Christian congregation on Earth" and the WTBTS was "God's one true organization on Earth". Plus, the gasser is this about the true church when they teach that "the true church is in Heaven and nowhere on Earth", which is in their book "The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life" and I remember reading that chapter long ago called "The true church and it's foundation." It was also a topic of discussion at a Thursday night Theocratic Ministry School meeting at the "Kingdom Hall" that I went to for the two years that I was involved with them.
The question is this: How do they come up with such rubbish? Good question, huh? The answer is that those who write these things, the so called "faithful and discreet slave class" simply have overactive imaginations and they let them run wild and they just write down what comes rapidly onto paper and bind them in numerous books to sell, not only to their diehard brainwashed followers, but also to those people who are so naive and vulnerable that they'll believe everything that is said to them in regards to spirituality and being religious. I used to be one of those types back in the early 1990's as I was suffering from spiritual burnout and I fell for everything without questioning anything connected to it as the JW's, in their own way, convinced me that they were "the one true way to God" and "the one true Christian congregation on Earth."
After those terrible two years, I dropped out and I have never looked back. I have received invitations to come back to their meetings and even received invites to their "Memorials" as well, but have passed them up and turned them down. I am not going to make that same mistake again. Live and learn, I suppose.
Thanks again Teeny and Andrew for all their hard work in exposing the real truth about the JW cult and the WTBTS. Keep it up.
Kevin
"There you have it. Clear as day. Jehovah’s Witnesses won’t even say ‘hello’ to me – they turn and run away when they see me in the street or at the supermarket – all because I bring valid criticism to the table. But they’ll happily have a chat with a serial killer…
It is obvious that it’s completely messed up thinking that could only really take place in a cult. What do you think? Am I wrong?"
I agree with your overall points. However, while Jehovah's Witnesses may be more extreme in their treatment of apostates/backsliders, many or most other Christian groups hold similar views. If you walk away from Christ, you either lose your salvation or "prove" that you weren't saved to begin with. Any unsaved person, no matter how decent, is hellbound.
Meanwhile, a person with a horrible past than get an easy ticket to heaven by sincerely accepting Christ as Savior and Lord and turning from their sin.
It's messed up, but that's what many people essentially believe.
AK MCGRATH
Sometimes there simply is not enough justice for heinous acts. The real apostate are the WTBTS/GB.
I weep for the innocent.
smmcroberts
It's just like you mentally-diseased, lowlife scum apostates to find fault with such a wonderful person as Rose who has turned her life around by climbing aboard the Watchtower's ark of salvation.
Don't you know that it doesn't matter what you've DONE? It only matters what you BELIEVE. She now knows that God's name is Jehovah (or something like that); that's the most important thing. Look at Paul; he stood by and watched people murdered, but after his conversion he claimed "I am free of the blood of all men!" So that's evidently how it works.
I wonder if she'll turn out to be one of the anointed? I can just envision the local elders visiting her in prison with the bread and wine come memorial time.
It will be hard for her to get in her 10 hours of door-to-door preaching, though. I'm not too sure I'd want her coming to MY door if she's ever released.
noh8inmyheart
PLEASE tell me your thread is a parody post. No rational person can possibly think that because she utters the words "I have dedicated my life to Jehovah" that it nullifies all the evil she has done. Remember, actions speak louder than words. Remember Karla Faye Tucker? For you to think that she's now a good person in the eyes of your Jehovah only confirms that my leaving that cult was the wisest thing I've ever done.
smmcroberts
Yes, noh8inmyheart, rest assured that my first post here was definitely a parody.
Frank
JWdefender
JW's are a cult plain and simple. They are NOT Christians at all. In my book, any religious group that protects child molesters and does little if nothing to protect their victims, which are the children, is NOT Christian. Any religious group that claims to be "the one true Christian congregation on Earth" and condemns all sorts of other sexual activity yet condones pedophilia, which is also, in itself, sexual immorality, is evil in my book. They also deny that it is a problem within their ranks and say that the problem is non-existent. But all the world's news sources say otherwise as they are repeatedly exposed for pedophilia every time everyone in the world turns around. The whole thing is totally disgusting. Plus, if you defend the JW cult, you condone their evil practice of protecting pedophiles and doing little if nothing to protect the young victims of these sadistic types of people. By defending them, you make their immoral pedophile hiding behavior acceptable and moral. Not only that, many JW pedophiles are serving time in prisons all over the world, which is where they belong as the children of the world need to be protected by keeping pedophiles off the streets and in jails and prisons so they won't harm nor sexually abuse any more children. I am glad that I woke up and found out the real truth about them rather than stay and believe all of their lies.
Thanks Andrew and Teeny for all of your hard work on this blog in exposing the real truth about the terrible and destructive JW cult. Keep up the great work that you are doing.
alana
to smmcroberts: in response to your comment , for some reason my computer is not letting me reply directly...Rose west needs to know more than Jehovahs name to be truly converted, SHE NEEDS TO KNOW IN HER HEART THAT SHE IS TRULY A WRETCHED SINNER , LIKE ALL MANKIND AND REPENT , OTHER WISE WHEN SHE IS BAPTISED SHE JUST COMES OUT OF THE WATER AS A WET SINNER.. ANY ONE CAN BE A RELIGIOUSE PHARISEE ON THE OUTSIDE, AND ON THE INSIDE BE DEAD DRY BONES..WE ALL NEDD TO REPENT AND COME TO THE SAVIOR OF OUR WRETCHED SOULS ..THATS REAL CONVERSION, OTHERWISE ITS JUST GOING THRU THE MOTIONS!!
Frank
@ Alana
I couldn't agree more or less. I am now a Christian myself. When I followed the JW's for two years when I was in my early 20's from 1992-1994, they had me convinced that they were "the only true Christian congregation on Earth" and that there were no other Christians but them. My eyes were opened about them in 1994 and I dropped out. I learned the hard way that they were not really Christians at all. They were just Christian posers pretending and professing to be Christian. It's sad, but that is all that they are. They are a cult masquerading as Christianity and that is, in itself, revolting(though that's putting it mildly).
Last year, I embraced the Lord and accepted Christ the only begotten son of God as my savior and I have never been happier. Again, those who own and run this blog, I am sharing what I sincerely believe in and I am trying to be sincere and not forceful about it. Again, my humblest apologies if I unintentionally crossed any lines.
Thanks Alana.
jwdefender
jw are more Christians then church goes, n u know about jah and u rejected him this rose west hasn't heard of jah before n this is her chance to repent n if jah sees her right heart condition its for him to judge not us
smmcroberts
Alana,
Not me; I don't have a wretched soul!
But the point is: people like Rose have lost all empathy with their fellow humans; it's all about themselves. Christianity is also all about the sinner and how he or she can be saved. Recognizing that one is a "wretched sinner" doesn't help anyone; it's just part of a Christian formula about saving one's self. If a person continues to have no empathy [quite likely in a sociopath such as Rose] then their beliefs about themselves are irrelevant; it only matters what they DO, not what they BELIEVE.
I can imagine her thought process: "Oh, I torture and kill people because I'm a wretched sinner. But that's okay because Jesus forgives me since I have acknowledged the fact of my sinfulness and accepted him as my savior." [Though a Witness would word that thought differently.]
Teeny
If Rose West ever did come to your door, you might end up under it...
Andrew
Great comment.
And if she was released, do you think the elders would warn the families with children? If she raped a child or killed again, they'd require two witnesses before they reported it to the police - they'd leave it in Jehovah's hands.










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messenger4truth
I am an EX JW!
I would also like to point out that Proverbs 4:18
discusses the 'Bright light getting lighter and lighter'!
Therefore, this is NOT 'new light' as the watchtower
keeps likes to refer to it as.
It is the very SAME light which get lighter and lighter!
Hence, any change in doctrines completely contrasting
the former doctrines show that new light is not Truth!
As this 'new light' is as it says new light!
Not the same bright light getting lighter & lighter.
Andres Torres
Here's my thinking on why "new light" is actually a good thing.
See every time the governing body changes their doctrines they are, in effect, rejecting the (previous) doctrines of the governing body and attempting to establish new doctrines in their place. Every time there is new light they are in actuality attempting to overturn the doctrines established by the governing body and to replace these with new doctrines.
But... isn't this the very definition of "apostasy"? Doesn't that mean they are opposing the direction of Jesus and Jehovah's representatives on earth and are in actuality apostates? Why hasn't the organization done anything to stop this flagrant apostasy, why haven't they been disfellowshiped?
And if they are not to be disfellowshiped, then I suppose that changing one's mind is not a sin and is not an offense worthy of disfellowship. So, for example, if I once held that the bible is the inerrant word of God, but now believe that it was written by men only, I cannot be disfellowshiped simply for changing my doctrine. Also, since the gb has gone back and forth several times on some issues such as the question of will the people of Sodom and Gomorah be resurrected, this means that rejecting a true doctrine and establishing in its place a false one is not a disfellowshiping offense either, since they changed their minds four times already and at some point must have replaced a true doctrine with a false one. Therefore, even if my new doctrine that the bible is written by men only, is false, this is not a disfellowshiping offense either since we Witnesses are allowed to replace true doctrine with false doctrine. Even if I am genuinely mistaken, it can simply be chalked up to my limited knowledge and imperfect nature and assumed that Jehovah will reveal the truth to me on his own time.
smmcroberts
Great comment, Andres! You're so right: the GB does exactly what they condemn apostates for doing. That's a double-standard if I ever heard of one.
Ella
I got into a similar arguement with my Dad and told him that I just can't follow a religion who follows a God who treats women as lesser, breaks up families, gets prophecies wrong along with a whole list of other things. Basically I told him that nothing seems right within the religion, that it just doesn't feel right to me and he needs to respect my choice. His face got Red and he said "How dare you attack my God." He then told me I hadn't given it enough of a chance. Just for the record I had been in for over 30 years, born & raised in it. Imagine saying that to someone who had played the piano for 30 years and still couldn't play one full song. Would you say to that person "Oh, you just didn't give it enough of a chance. You didn't try hard enough." It would be asburd. My Dad has been an elder for years but he actually tried to tell me that I need to separate God from the organization, that if there's flaws it's the imperfect Men running it, not God. That really messed with my mind, since I had always been told that the organization was directed by God himself.
I then told him that all I wanted was a normal Father/Daughter relationship with him, where we spend more time together doing normal stuff - movies, walks etc. He then proceeded to tell me that the only way we could get closer is if I study the bible with him for 1/2 an hour a week and slid one of the publications across the table, that I had studied a million times before. I said "No Dad, I don't want to". He then washed his hands of me and warned that because of this decision, the gap would only get bigger and bigger between us. I never forgave him for doing that to me and the gap has indeed gotten bigger because I chose to cut him out of my life after that. I realized that the love he was supposedly showing me was "conditional" and that in that moment, he had truly abandoned me. I went away feeling like an orphan, having no family to rely on, since my Mom had died seven years before from suicide, overdosing on pills. She was also in the religion at the time.
Coming out of the religion, I stayed level headed and responsible, holding down an excellent job, owning my own place, surrounding myself with true friends and finding a loving and steady relationship, I wasn't a liar, drug addict, party animal, alcoholic but that didn't matter. If I didn't believe, I was no better than anyone else in the world, no matter my accomplishments.
The light doesn't get brighter, but it does get more blinding to those in it and it's sad that family members who are JW's choose to miss out on beautiful relationships with their children. They say "believe what I believe or else I won't love & accept you!" The saying goes that blood is thicker than water but apparently I have the wrong blood type.
Teeny
Thanks for sharing your experience Ella. Unfortunately these life stories aren't at all rare. When the cult has you, it's so difficult to pull away as don't even realise it.
My parents are the same. We live and learn.
Kilian
Do you remember an acucont in the Bible about John the Baptist where he went to a Birthday party of pharoh? His head was cut off and there's another acucont where two men were killed and their heads were hung on stakes. But there is so much more reasoning. Take a look at the book Reasoning From the Scriptures and it has examples as to why we don't celebrate birthdays.
smmcroberts
Hi Kilan,
I have no idea what this has to do with the topic under discussion here, but yes, I do remember accounts of birthdays in the Bible, though I don't think John the Baptist ever attended Pharaoh’s birthday party!
Do you remember the only account in the Bible of taking a siesta? In that account the siesta-taking man (Ishbosheth) was murdered and beheaded (2Sam 4:5-7). So, following the same logic, I'm sure the Watchtower must tell you that the practice of observing siestas is against Bible principles. Right? No? Please explain; I'm confused. If that logic works for birthdays it MUST also work for siestas. If it doesn't, then the logic is faulty, and to be honest you'd do better not to mention these irrelevant examples of birthdays from the Bible and just tell us what reasons you think there are for condemning this seemingly innocent practice.
Tm
I just want to know when the JW's are going to officially announce their latest 'new light' regarding the Governing Body being the Annointed. I'm curious to see how many of the 'thinking sheep' are going to leave the "Truth" knowing they have been duped, yet again.
Danny Haszard
Thanks for posting!
I was born 1957 3rd generation JW and have NO shame speaking out against the Watchtower cult abuses.
Number #1 lie of the Jehovah's Witnesses is the date for Jesus return aka second coming October 1914.
--
Danny Haszard FMI dannyhaszard(dot)com
*Watchtower whistleblower*
Dyllen
Bonnie, deserves all the freedom she can get without her parents interfering all the time! She can live a happy life outside of the JW world and become a whole new lovable person, even if her parents do end up disowning her for being so different. OK, I'm not saying they are bad people -- it's her parents that are brainwashed into believing such lies about the new world where it's just made for the JWs and I doubt their new light is all about good stories too. Bonnie, you do what is right -- even if it means packing up your bags while your parents are out at church one Sunday night or afternoon and living with some people who care about you for real. <3
Nicolas
Not a witness, but I have close family that are. Can you please post which publications I can find the claims of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah being resurrected or not? I want to locate these publications for my own library. I would love to plant this seed for the next door knocker that comes along.
Scummydross
Nicolas,..
You need to familiarize yourself and bookmark this link
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchto...
Also be sure to visit the www.jwfacts.com for any and all info that you would ever need to find out the actual doctrine past and present about the WTBTS.
Teeny
Hi Nicolas,
Take a look at this article - http://www.jehovahswitnessblog...
Regards,
Jaymes
Hal
They are like a bunch of 'dumb animals' running in circles chasing their own tails also synonomous with 'finding the new light. I LMFAO when l think of scenario.
Dion Snoeijen
When I read Proverbs chapter 4 I can see Jesus talking about human interaction and learning processes rather than a means to identify the slave referred to in Matthew 24:45-47. In fact, there is absolutely nothing that connects Proverbs 4 to the organisation at all. Even if it was applicable, wouldn't all religions be able to use that verse?
A Different Bonnie
Bonnie
This Bonnie was in the organization for 40 years and just recently found out about a very little known scripture that JWs do not like to talk about because it totally exposes them as false prophets. It is perfectly described in Ray's Hope Tower, a support group for witnesses and ex-witnesses. I hope you find it useful. Here is the link:
http://rayshopetower.com/2012/...
Hang in there, and know that you are not alone in your doubts, and rightly so. If the time comes when you have to choose between your beliefs and your family, and it probably will, as we have all had to eventually do that, be strong. You can do this. You have many supporters here.
Bonnie Finlayson
40 Years IN and 12 Years OUT
smmcroberts
Excellent example, Teeny! It's the same one I typically use (though, sadly, I've neglected the smacking over the head part). It clearly shows that the light does not get brighter: it flickers off and on.
Another good example is the ruling on whether a rape victim should be disfellowshipped for fornication if he or she neglected to scream. They've gone back and forth on this several times. (For details, please see the answer to Question 15 at: http://smmcroberts.net/blog/th...
It all sounds more like men stumbling around in the dark, guessing at what they're bumping into than it does men faithfully reporting on what they see by the dawning light, and discreetly waiting until they're sure of what they see.
Here's another good example, though it lacks the waffling back and forth, it had real-life fatal consequences (because, after all, who really cares about the Sodomites being resurrected, other than the Sodomites?) The example is the banning of organ transplants from 1967 to 1980. If the GB were discreet then they wouldn't have imposed this ban (from which Jehovah's Witnesses died) unless they were certain that Jehovah's spirit was leading them to do so. But since they later removed the ban it shows that transplants were never against God's law, and therefore Jehovah's spirit must not have been leading them in 1967.
So, either they are not discreet (blurting out half-baked ideas), or they don't know what it feels like to be led by Jehovah's spirit -- or both.
(For details on this, please see my blog: http://smmcroberts.net/blog/wh...
It also shows that Jehovah is not behind this organization, or he would never have allowed the GB to issue a lie about his law which caused death amongst his "name people" while the rest of the world's transplant recipients lived on. It's a clear example of the light being ON in "the world" and decidedly turned OFF in "Jehovah's organization". If it was just "human imperfection" that led to the ruling, then certainly if Jehovah was guiding this organization he would've immediately corrected it instead of waiting 13 years while Witnesses who needed transplants died for the mistake of his organization.
Bonnie, please consider telling your father that you refuse to stay in an organization whose mistaken rulings lead to the death of its followers, and that as a responsible father he shouldn't want you to remain in such a place.
9328737
I recommend Bonnie to read the chapter 8 of the book "Captives of a Concept" by Don Cameron.
Arno
So glad that Bonnie has posed this question and that you, Teeny, has answered. The above information is just what I need at this point in time. I've been thinking for quite some time how to, succinctly, be able to bring this point of so-called NEW LIGHT as being just plain ol' hogwash across to my family who are still stuck in the Org...NOW I know how to proceed :) And ja, thanks to all of you responsible for these blog-posts. I'm rooting for you and all others who read this blog. Way to go!










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Steve
Desean,
Just a few quick points in response:
1. "I see you didnt have a rebuttal for the ransom or the resurrection."
Here's a rebuttal on the ransom: http://smmcroberts.net/blog/yo...
Here's a rebuttal on the resurrection: http://smmcroberts.net/blog/yo...
2. "I work in a hospital and doctors yes doctors wont take blood transfusions. The risk is higher then the reward."
Okay; that's their personal decision. Everyone must personally weigh the risks vs the rewards of any operation they may be considering. I know people who won't have a colonoscopy because they think the risks outweigh the benefits. That's their choice. But no one should be lying to them about it being "against God's law" or purposely exaggerating the risks in order to make their religion look less foolish. Blood transfusion is one of the least risky of all medical procedures according to medical associations.
http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-gu...
http://www.americasblood.org/g...
A quote from the above link:
"In almost every case, the life-saving benefits of receiving a needed blood transfusion outweigh the possible risk of contracting an infectious disease. The risk of contracting HIV from a blood transfusion is about one in 1.5 million. That is much less than the risk of dying from a lightning strike. Thanks to new blood testing procedures, the chance of getting HCV is about the same."
So put the few doctors you know in context. I could say that I'd rather not have a blood transfusion too. But when I needed one I had no qualms about accepting one, and that's why I'm alive today writing to you. If I ever need one again I won't hesitate for a moment. [Even if I still believed the Bible, I would do this, because I know the Bible--taken in context--does not prohibit blood.] In the meantime I'm happy to be donating blood platelets and plasma as often as I can, knowing that these donations ARE saving lives. It's a fact. Read the stories on the Red Cross site. Educate yourself before you come here and try to tell people whose lives have been saved and who have saved lives by blood that it's unsafe or that your god doesn't like it.
3. "As for armeggadon, i havent read anything in a watch tower, book published by the witnesses nor the bible that says you have to be a religion to survive through armeggadon. Thats makes no sense. If your peaceful, humble, lover of God why would you be destroyed."
"It is solely in brotherly association with the New World Society that we can possibly survive when this old world passes away." (New Heavens and a New Earth, WBTS p. 363)
On this point I agree with you: the Watchtower stance "makes no sense."
4. "Just saying stop searching for things wrong with our organization and focus on the others!!!"
When the organization stops allowing children to be molested and to die for want of life-saving medical procedures, I might consider your request.
In the meantime, here are some Watchtower quotes that contradict your "don't examine my religion" sentiment:
We need to examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated. If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination.
(The Truth That Leads To Eternal Life, p. 13 - WBTS, 1968)
Every man should be persuaded in his own mind and no man should permit himself to be deterred from examining a question based upon the Bible because a clergy man or any one else makes the unsupported assertion that it is dangerous or unworthy of consideration. Error always seeks the dark, while truth is always enhanced by the light. Error never seeks to be investigated. Light always courts a thorough and complete investigation.
(Millions Now Living Will Never Die p. 13 - WBTS)
Desean, are you still laughing? We agree that there's a lot to laugh at in your posts. But the mind-controlling, child-molesting, life-denying organization you defend is no laughing matter.
Desean
Im laughing at you folks. First of all ive been studying since i was 12, Im 28 so ive grown up studying just like you Nico. For mh honey mob. Stop it. You did all this research just to have an arguement. Made some good points no denying that. Lets start with the blood factor. Those who drank blood in the bibicial day, as you say was frowned upon by God. Still is to this day. I work in a hospital and doctors yes doctors wont take blood transfusions. The risk is higher then the reward. As far as money goes stop it. Ive never meant a witness who has a mansion nor a fancy car. Every witness i meant has came from struggle and if they have a nice car its because of the career they have not because of the profit off of Gods name. Your reaching with that one. No there isnt a JW bum out there. Jehovah takes care of his people. Its called a family. A family(organization) supports one another. I know JWs that help JWs with bills as well as getting a job. Thats called networking. If you know JWs that do all that worldly stuff then they arent fully converting themselves. That doesnt discredit the religion. So what witnesses send folks overseas. Unfortunatley that does take money. How else are they going to preach the word and have them convert if they cant get to them. Come on thats common sense. JWs are the only religion that goes to other countries because they believe that everyone should know Gods word before the end. I see you didnt have a rebuttal for the ransom or the resurrection. Whys that? As for armeggadon, i havent read anything in a watch tower, book published by the witnesses nor the bible that says you have to be a religion to survive through armeggadon. Thats makes no sense. If your peaceful, humble, lover of God why would you be destroyed. Yes JWs bulid Assembly halls. Should they not if the demand calls for it. Cant have an assembly if the hall cant fit 100000 right. But know this there are ten of thousands of small kingdom halls. Most people dont know know where a hall is but small churchs are seldom. Be honest with yourself. Once again there isnt a collection plate going around at the hall. If you attended one youd know that. Question before i wrap this up. I live in Denver and there is a church. IT was called hertiage church. This church is huge. This preacher is filthy rich. So 2 or 3 years ago he SOLD the church. I thought this was for God. So you sell a church and give up doing Gods work or TD Jakes church is the size of a small hotel. He also owes a church where i live. The one i was referring to earlier was sold to him. When did Gods work become a business. Those are christians. Thats my porblem with christians. Yall have a negative view on JWs so there isnt no convincing yall anyway. Just saying stop searching for things wrong with our organization and focus on the others!!!
Desean
See people have the religion so wrong. Im not one but i have study for years. Its not the religion that has folks feeling trapped. From what ive read on here its the family who are raising the kids. JW expect you to live at a higher standard. The reason they say stay away from those who are worldly is b/c some of those folks are a bad influence on you. Think about it. The things they call worldy, clubs, bars, certain tv programs. what good comes out of being at a bar or club. Drunkness or the drug of choice, lust, fornication. Whats on tv, violence, sex or material things that may make you feel inferior. its insane to me all these comments talking about something that no one knows about. some of yall dont even believe in god. Foolish. someone explain why nature runs on a system. think about it. we need O2(oxygen) to live. when we breathe out we breathe CO2 thats what the trees take in and produce O2 for us. Thats just a beginning of things. Back to the JW. Why are folks trying to expose them. Far from a cult. Just an organization that encourages us to follow the example of jesus. And what is with this Jehovah is going to kill 7 billion people. Get out of here. You dont have to be a witness to survive through armageddon. And i havent seen anyone say anything about the resurrection. You know after jehovah rids the world of wickedness he plans on bringing back everyone who died because those who dies have paid for their sins because of the ransom. JW is the only religion that is truely peaceful. The blood thing people have backwards. Blood is sacred therefore you shall not consume it in anyway. FYI you critics, blood transfusion dont always work. I work in a hospital and i know doctors thats wont take a blood transfusion. Look it up because ive done my research and blood transfusion dont always save lives. Last thing JW is the only religion that has a bad rep for trying to do what is right. Christians profit off of gods name. Driving in luxury cars, living in mansions because of the collection plate and the taxes they dont have to pay. catholics touch little boys. enough said there. muslims create terrorists shall i go on. And to the person who wrote about thanksgiving. Your foolish and im being nice. Thanksgiving is a horrible holiday to celebrate. We are celebrating a white man killing indians to take over there land because they saw profit in america. This country is built on lies and corruption. Why would anyone want to celebrate that. SMH
kissmegoodbyenow
You cant possibly know ANYTHING about JWs by just studying. Try growing up on that cult your whole life. Fo some actual research. Study your history. The arrogance and pride blinds ones like you. It isn't your fault I understand you are just too dumb to know any better but their views on holidays and celebrations are not only inaccurate but hilarious as well. Being I know because I do my studying, my research and know my stuff based off facts (not assumptions) and biblical knowledge (not knowledge from a well known altered bible or fed words by a brainwashing elder telling me everything to say and do). Sorry for you. Hope you figure out the truth someday. Until then you may all live in your ignorance. Nobody cares about JWs. There is a reason we shut the door in your face ir don't answer it to begin with.
mahoneymob
Desesan, I agree that its the ‘family’ that raise the JW's that are the problem, as the entire organisation IS supposed to be a family. Let’s honestly look at your points.
JW's live to a higher standard – well perhaps SOME do but not many!!
Just as many JW’s chose to not go to pubs, clubs, do drugs, drink alcohol, have sex etc. as Methodists, Catholics and the other religions. Those religions also teach that these things should be kept away from. I know PLENTY of JW’s who drink, go to bars, clubs, watch ALL TV programs and certainly play those violent games that I wouldn’t play even now!! No difference there!!
You say you are ‘just an organisation that encourages us to follow the example of Jesus’ again, no difference there either, so do Catholics, Methodists, and other Christian religions.
‘You don’t have to be a witness to survive through Armageddon’. – WRONG BUDDY!!! If that is what the Watchtower teaches then they have no reason to get people to convert!!! The entire point of their door knocking is to get people to convert!
‘JW is the only religion that is truly peaceful.’ – wrong again. Buddhism is more peaceful than JW’s. They believe in total humility and peace, they don’t have homes worth millions or flash cars. They don’t have flashy displays with Assembly’s making themselves obvious. They quietly go about their lives peacefully and with love. Think JW’s bum out there!!
The blood issue – seriously!! You can’t see that in the days of the bible people DRANK blood, and that is what it is referring to?? It also refers to not taking a life if you want to look at it that way, yet by withholding blood from someone, you ARE taking a life in some instances!! Think that’s a no win as well!!
Christians profit off of God’s name – and JW’s don’t?? Some of the Kingdom Halls you have out there are worth millions in comparison to the little humble Churches just up the road!! JW’s claim the same tax exemption as all other religions ,so you should check that out. Who do you think ‘pays’ for your travelling overseers expenses?? They certainly never seem to have poor clothing or look unfed!!
But the most disgusting point is the one about the ‘Catholics who touch little boys’!! Have you not heard about the recent court case of Candice Conti vs Watchtower Society!! There is also another HUGE case in Australia currently in which hundreds, if not thousands, of children have been abused and it is only just being bought to light. JW’s are right up there with the ‘Catholics’ if you want to go down THAT track!!!
You should think yourself LUCKY that you have NOT gotten Baptised….you still have a chance!!
Nico
So Desean you never even committed to this "higher standard" just studied it? The author of this post , myself , & many commenting were RAISED JW & lived it for 20+ years. How can you think you know it better than us? What you're saying is the logical equivalent of you studying a region of Africa for several years & thinking you know it better than the people who grew up & spent most of their there.
Just one example of how you could be educated if you actually studied something outside the WT indoctrination garbage:
Fact is 1st US Thanks Giving was actually in 1565, located in Florida consisting of the Spaniard settlers, missionaries, & done jointly with the Timucuan Indians celebration. In fact the two groups got along so well that they intermarried to the point where when the Spanish went to Cuba the remaining Timucuan Native American's went with them! http://www.post-gazette.com/st...
Safe travel, a good harvest, love, marriage, & good multi-ethnic Christian families. All things worth celebrating in my book!
~God Bless~
Ken
The sad fact of the matter is that simply too many people within the JW organization feel trapped and have been taught that everyone outside of their religion is “worldly” and part of Satan’s system of things, they do not know where to go for help. They could not be further from the truth, not everyone outside of their organization is going to die because they aren’t a Jehovah’s Witness. The last time I checked the scriptures refer to Jesus in the Bible as a “friend of sinners,” even he recognized the need to become active and involved in the world of his time. The last time I also checked, “worldly” is not even mentioned in the Bible. I was a JW for twenty years and I am so thankful for having left the organization. After many years of wandering I have become spiritually satisfied, graduated from seminary and I am a Christian. The bottom line is that there are many people of all different religious and ethnic backgrounds who find favor in the eyes of God. It is not up to us as individuals to judge a person and say that he or she is not going to find favor with the Lord, that is for the Lord himself to judge. God loves you and the real “Truth” will indeed set you free. I welcome any emails from individuals who need help at breaking away from this organization and my thoughts and prayers are with you all. adenkenneth@gmail.com
With Humble Blessings.
Ken
Northwestern Seminary
Bonnie
Lucia
Has anyone ever told you that you speak (write) like a programmed robot? Just curious... It's okay. I was a programmed JW Stepford Wife for 40 years, so I understand...
leelee
I came across your blog while looking for some information for work and I must say that this is the most ridiculous post I have read. I grew up as one of Jehovah Witnesses... I didn't celebrate birthdays, Christmas, Thanksgiving or any holidays. And I'm not missing anything. I think it's rather dumb to only have dinners with your family once or twice a year or have to wait until your birthday or Christmas just to give your children a nice gift (poor kids) and thank your mother and father for taking care of you once a year. So if I don't buy my mother a bouquet of flowers for Mother's Day but I buy her flowers at least once a month and take her out to a nice restaurant every weekend just because I want to spend time with her I'm a bad person? Lol..wow. Ummm...I can have Turkey any time.. it is sold year round in case you didn't notice that. Oh! I can buy chocolate and give my loved ones wrapped up gifts all year...shocking isn't it!? You mad yet? Gonna quote some outdated mdaterial again? Worldly people are so funny...You spend so much time trying to analyze the beliefs of witnesses that you don't even take care of your own dysfunctional families and broken homes. you put so much stock into holidays ,but there are thousands of other types parties and events that can be had. Im planning two for next year. Ooooo...Witnesses have other parties besides holidays? Stop the presses!! And you call us dumb? but of course you're all so blinded reading my post probably confuses you. I bet after the holidays you're miserable and left empty. We don't have to worry about that :-) Lol!
Andrew
*sigh* Okay..
1. This article hasn't once said that JWs don't have parties/gifts at other times so you're arguing with yourself.
2. 'Worldly' people don't only give gifts on special occasions. Are you really that naive?
3. 'Worldly' people aren't evil and less loving than other people. In fact, we don't look forward to a day when billions of people will die.
4. You've proven yet again that JWs aren't the loving people they think they are. You had an opportunity to preach and show your Christian love and explain to us 'worldly' people your beliefs. Instead, you rudely insulted us.
5. You've also completely missed the point of the article and haven't said anything to challenge what we have written.
6. I don't have a number 6...
Bye!
Karen Milton
Why are Jehovah witnesses such hateful people? They really lack love and that is truly sad. Reading that comment from "Leelee" is so disturbing. I don't know this person, I'm not a JW nor was I ever but I can see that it truly is a cult when all their comments and phrases are of the same unloving tone dictated by the WTBTS. When comments are made like this, it just helps me to appreciate that in order to "hide" or "cover" the faults in their own religion the JW's seek to bash and undermine everyone else who is of a different belief. The "truth" should be able to stand on its own. Just teach what the Bible says (not WT material as it most often contradicts the Bible) and you will be teaching the truth.
I must say that Leelee's comment above just proves that this person could never "preach" to me and convert me to being a JW. A lack of love was not Jesus' way of teaching & preaching to people.
Nico
Dear Leelee,
You have in fact brought no valid arguments not any facts to the table at all (pun intended). Most of what you said is unflattering lies you've been told about "Worldly People". Your point was basically to tell us how materialistic & gluttonous you are year round. Can't blame you for trying to make yourself feel better though. Living under the constant threat of being cast out & shunned must leave you feeling very empty & scared indeed.
God Bless, Nico
Lucia
Very interesting Blog. As a Jehovah's Witness msyelf and having had the privilege of going out on the ministry over the years (what most know as door to door work), I have never had this question asked of me, and not a question that would normally be anticipated in the western world, as statistically most people in the west' believe in the Bible as the word of God and it is just the interpretation and different views or translations that is being questioned. In total there are about 6,000 different Christian' sects who all believe that the Bible is the true word of God, but all have major or minor differences. It is questions regarding these differences that Jehovah's witnesses are usually anticipating. I want to believe that your question directed at these people was to gain knowledge and not merely to confront from the outset and think that your question is a very good one, and one that we all should be prepared to have an answer for; as Christianity only make up 1/6 of the population. How do you try and convert a Muslim believing in the Quran, that my Book' is closer to the truth than yours .These sisters clearly went out to promote a monthly publication from the witness organization and being prepared for that, struggled to answer a question taking them into a different direction of conversation not being prepared for. You must also understand the phycology involved in going from door to door. It is not an easy task for any one at any age, no matter how confident you are in front of people, to go from door to door knowing that majority of the people will slam the door in your face, or even worse in extreme cases. But we do see it as our duty and therefore go out like a lamb between the wolves. When they were confronted with a question that they could not answer; they should have asked if it was convenient for them to come back to you regarding that, or have someone else with more knowledge come and see you, as I am sure that having answered your question in a satisfactory way, you would have been interested to hear about what they believe and not judge them on not being able to have an answer when put on the spot that any member of the 6,000 Christian sects will struggle to answer. But your question definitely made me think to be better prepared going forward. Myself.In answer to your question. We all know about the prophesies that came true etc. etc. So putting that aside, what makes me believe in the Bible…first of all; the authors of the Book. The Bible was written over a period of 1,600 if you take the time from before Moses to John who wrote revelations. There are hundreds of archaeological findings that proofed these people really did exists and was who the Bible say they were. The Dead Sea scrolls dating back to 150 B.C. is a good example as well. It lists most of the older books in the Bible and clearly show the name of God (Jehovah, Yahweh, or however you want to pronounce it). Also, what makes me a believer in the Bible is that it is the oldest book known to man and is the most circulated book in the world. It has been the target of many attempt throughout the centuries to be destroyed. From the religious leaders' in the dark ages to the Nazis in Germany, yet it survived and flourished, making me believe that there are higher powers at work here.In the end it comes down to personal choice; free will to decide for yourself what feels right. I read the Quran and even though there are a fast amount of similarities to the Bible, where it differed did not sit comfortably with me and the person I want to be. It is your choice, if you will believe in the Bible, Quran or any book or theory. My suggestion would be to read them all yourself and then decide on which book you would like further guidance on. For me, I believe in the Bible and the Jehovah Witnesses’ interpretation of the Bible. I also believe that if you really seek the truth wholeheartedly, that it will come your way. Good luck in your quest.
Nico
Masterfully said! My good friend & Matron of Honor (Vegas wedding no less) just celebrated her 1st Thanks Giving here in the states this year. She & her kids loved it! My ever the long-suffering JW mother drove 1300 miles North to Illinois, avoiding our Thanks Giving, & instead forced herself into eating with her non-JW brothers wife's step-brothers house. Oh what a good example she is. Laughed until I cried!!
Thank you GOD I didn't have to deal with her crap again this Thanks Giving! I'm thankful my son isn't (age 4) & sitting in the halls, like he's done something wrong, while the rest of the class learns about history & music surrounding this "Worldly Holiday". So much to be thankful for my healthy children, a hard working husband, nice house, even great weather, so why not a Thanks Giving Holiday?
The only reason they don't want Thanks Giving leads back to the CULT use of separation from the family & society making Dissfellowshipping & Shunning effective. Lets be honest all cults use this to control members. Separate yourself from "the world"... So we can shun you if you're "bad". LOL
Hope Thanks Giving catches on in Greece. Turkey & baked Feta go together fabulously!!
Daniel Haszard
Jehovah's Witnesses reject all holidays even benign Mother's day,exception being the Lord's evening meal also called the Last Supper or Good Friday.
WHY-Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t do Thanksgiving,and other holidays.
I was born Jehovah’s Witness 1957 3rd generation,we didn’t celebrate Christmas.
The reason JW’s don’t do Christmas is because their Watchtower leaders say so,the holiday has pagan aspects to it and by rejecting it the Watchtower appears “pure”.
This “demand for purity” is one of the 8 marks of a cult....Now the Watchtower can use this purity diversion to distract from their own false dogmas.
Jesus was not born on Dec 25th,but he also did not have his second coming in the month of October 1914,which is the core doctrine of the Watchtower religion.
The Watchtower leaders want us to be 'different' for the sake of being different.Jehovah's Witnesses are not 'happier' and are just as dysfunctional as families who do holidays.
.
--
Danny Haszard http://www.dannyhaszard.com
aunt jen
Wow so glad I have found this site. Stopped going to the kh over 17 years ago. Just wish my parent's eyes would be opened up to the real truth.
smmcroberts
Thanksgiving from this American's perspective: 45 million birds slaughtered as we show our gratitude for life by taking life, over-indulging, and thanking God that we're living in the only country that the U.S. will never bomb.
And, while we're at it, let's whitewash the "American Holocaust" by pretending that we made nice with the indigenous people we massacred and whose land we stole; since we may have once sat down to a meal with them.
Aunt Fancy
I really enjoyed this article! This is my first year in over 30 years I am having Thanksgiving with my parents and sister!! My husband and I found out the real truth about 6 months ago and we are going to enjoy our life!! All of the comments were very interesting! Thanks!
Hal
Right on Teeny et al. Keep exposing those 'snakes'. Your right on target and are not libelous or slanderous in any way, form, fashion or manner.
Lacy
My experience was that I grew up a JW from the age of 10. I became one when my dad and stepmom did. My mom, however, doesn't believe in organized religion. I chose to remain a JW even when leaving my dad's house and moving into my mom's. So when my mom would make Thanksgiving for my brother and other family, I would go to see my friends who were JWs and stay there all day. One Thanksgiving when I was around 18, I got home late that night after the dinner was over and the guests gone. Mom asked what my JW friends had cooked. We had eaten a full turkey, stuffing, mashed potatoes, etc, and finished with pumpkin pie. It was my friends, their parents, and grandparents all there. I was a pioneer and besides me there was 3 other pioneers and 2 ministerial servants there. My mom hit the roof! She said JWs were all such hypocrites and I was never allowed to leave the house on Thanksgiving again. The JWs excuse for their dinner was that the dad had gotten a free turkey from work and since everyone was home that day it just made sense to eat it then. Not Thanksgiving at all!
Today, I am going to my dad and stepmom's house. My non-JW grandparents will all be there. They always come to visit this time of year even though they only live 2 hours away and know my parents don't celebrate the holiday. Funny thing is, for the last few years when they visit, my parents have been making a turkey and sides. They asked me to bring a pumpkin pie today. But of course, it's not Thanksgiving dinner. No, no, no. That would be wrong. It's just dinner at 2 in the afternoon on a Thursday with lots of family and a big turkey. Completely normal.
G-Ray
Right on about the justification of the free turkey. JW's don't get Christmas Bonuses, they are yearly productivity awards
Nico
Right & they never go to Christmas Parties just "Year End" parties. lol
Bonnie
God, I love you guys! You just made my day with this article. I laughed. I cried. It became a part of me. Truly, Jehovah's Witnesses are such a bunch of snobs when you stop and think about it. They don't want to give "worshipful honors" to our veterans, the soldiers who actually died for their country, Presidents, their moms on Mother's Day, their dads on Father's Day, even people they love on the day they were born. And don't even get me started about R rated movies... yep... a total bunch of SNOBS! Their "we're better than you" attitude disgusts me and I cannot believe I WAS ONE for 40 YEARS! So happy to be out. Thank you for cutting through the WT crap with humor and sarcasm; two of my favorite things (just heard Julie Andrews singing in my head). Have a great day, guys and HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!! Gobble Gobble...
- your forever fan
Teeny
You're lovely Bonnie. Thanks for the very kind words.
Love,
Teeny









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Lonepine
Good gawd man! That is a genius piece of logic. I like you already.
sergio
About siesta. My sister in law is JW. My family is not. But during any holiday my family get together. Just like any american family. But the only thing is that my sister in law and her kids, two boys. Celebrate with us. All I'm asking what happen to the JW Rules.
Andres Torres
Good for her. Very few JWs are as reasonable and balanced as your sister in law is obviously trying to be. They usually feel too guilty to even be in the same house while people are celebrating a holiday.
If you don't believe me try this: Ask her if most of the witnesses she knows do the same thing her, attend but not celebrate. I promise you she'll say no.
lucy
maybe because she loves her family n she probably doesnt take part in the celebration just goes to see all her family, there is nothing wrong with that every jw is different
dfjm
want to know the truth? go to the source... Jw.org.
Andrew
Truth? So everything JW.org says is the truth? Don't you ever test their claims, as you should?
dfjm
jw.org
smmcroberts
Bruce,
It occurs to me that there are three more things in your post that are inaccurate:
1. Thanksgiving is not of pagan origin.
2. The Bible does not state that "TG birthdays Halloween and the rest of the holidays" are of pagan origin.
3. Witnesses did not ban smoking until 1973. This was long after "the world" had deemed smoking to be a health problem.
Facts are such annoying things when you're trying to defend a lying organization.
Juan Viejo
SMMRoberts -
Smoking WAS banned well before 1973. My father converted to JW in 1952 and was a two-pack a day smoker. He finally gave them up after he was counseled by several servants at the Kingdom Hall. He slipped (caught smoking at work) and was given a strong warning. He finally gave it up completely. In the 1960s, several JWs in my Kingdom Hall were reproved and one servant lost his position due to smoking. Two were eventually disfellowshipped. The Witnesses officially made smoking a DF offense during the rush to 1975. Too bad they didn't make child molestation a DF offense as well.
smmcroberts
So, we are in agreement: it wasn't officially banned until the "rush to 1975" (in 1973). BTW: I think Rutherford himself was a cigar smoker.
Musicman
'Jehovah's Witnesses haven't the foggiest when it comes to logic.'
I regret to tell you that the quoted statement is founded on sketchy and unreliable sources or based on a lack of understanding . Having associated with the witnesses for some time (no, I am not baptised, so thus am not being biased) and myself being educated, I am yet to find fault with their teaching and I ask many questions which require them to do research. Even the bible says that we would be stupid if we took everything that is taught to us without research.
Furthermore, I guess we live in a society where we disregard other principles and hypocrites run wild. For example, 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 indicates some practices which are not permitted and the person will lose God's favor, yet we live in a world where churches (who supposedly practice what is written) not only condone, but also practice themselves what is written for us NOT to do. Therefore, surely their "logic is [also] faulty"?
Also, one particular reason why birthdays are not celebrated is:
"The various customs with which people today celebrate their birthdays have a long history. Their origins lie in the realm of magic and religion. The customs of offering congratulations, presenting gifts and celebrating—complete with lighted candles—in ancient times were meant to protect the birthday celebrant from the demons and to ensure his security for the coming year. . . . Down to the fourth century Christianity rejected the birthday celebration as a pagan custom.”—Schwäbische Zeitung (magazine supplement Zeit und Welt), April 3/4, 1981, p. 4.
Since JW's do not dabble in spiritism, by extension, that quote makes birthday celebrations wrong.
Furthermore, no faithful person in the bible celebrated a birthday. Jesus, Paul, John, Matthew, Josiah, David, Abraham (I could continue) never mentioned a birthday being celebrated (surely people would want to throw Jesus an amazing celebration as he was an influential and compassionate man or Josiah as he made some radical religious reforms which people liked). Moses wrote the first 5 books of the bible, not once did he mention his (or his brother Aaron's) birthday celebrations.
Hope this helps
smmcroberts
Musicman,
Sorry to disagree, but the WT's use of logic is appalling. We've seen that the use of the argument: "the only places in the Bible that mention birthdays were by pagans in which someone was killed" is logically invalid because it would also result in the banning of siestas.
Now, thanks to your post, we see another argument with faulty logic: that some people celebrate birthdays with practices that may have stemmed from pagan superstitious beliefs.
Let me ask you this: Do Jehovah's Witnesses have weddings? They do?? How can this be true? Weddings have several pagan superstitions such as throwing rice and tying cans to cars to scare away evil spirits! So, if we use the logic of "Christians can't observe birthdays because they commonly include pagan practices" then it follows that "Christians can't observe weddings because they commonly include pagan practices."
If an argument holds true for one thing then it must hold true for another with like circumstances. If it doesn't, then the logic is not impartially applied and does not lead to the conclusion it is being forced into.
Here's a thought which I guess the WT has never considered: you can celebrate someone's birth without using candles or anything else that you consider pagan: just like you can celebrate someone's wedding without throwing rice. You can also reinterpret the symbolism: a birthday-candle to commemorate each year of someone's life, for example.
As far as your quote about Christians not celebrating birthdays, this is based on the writings of the early "church fathers" which the WT has called apostate "Christendom" and/or "Babylon the Great whore" whenever they disagree with them (e.g. on the Trinity). So it is faulty logic to suddenly use them as authorities when you agree with them.
As for the Bible not mentioning Jesus et al., not celebrating birthdays: it doesn't mention them going to the bathroom either. So I guess they never did. (Hopefully you can see the faulty logic here without my having to point it out.)
Please read something about developing critical thinking skills before you conclude that the WT uses logic properly.
If you "have yet to find fault with their teaching" then you haven't been paying attention. What about when they taught that germs don't cause disease; that vaccinations were against God's law and never prevented a single disease; that organ transplants were cannibalism? These faulty teachings cost their gullible followers their very lives.
http://smmcroberts.net/blog/pu...
Please wake up!
smmcroberts
Bruce,
What makes something "of pagan origin"? Is it that the first person to do it was pagan? How do you know that the first person to take a siesta wasn't a pagan? You don't. Neither do you know that the first person to celebrate being born was a pagan. So we are left with no sensible reason as to why you would take a siesta but condemn a birthday celebration.
Secondly, what difference does it make? What if the first person to build a bridge was a pagan (a distinct possibility): would you refrain from ever crossing a bridge? Doesn't that strike you as ludicrous?
Can you please tell me how my privately celebrating the birth of my wife one day each year makes me "part of the world"? I''d really like to know. Is it because other people "in the world" celebrate birthdays? So if I do something that other people do, then I'm being "part of the world"? Is this the logic you're asking us to swallow? If it is, then let me ask you: Do you brush your teeth? Well, so do most people "in the world" so I guess that makes you "part of the world."
The Bible book of Job states that each of his sons held a banquet and invited guests to celebrate "on his own day". That sounds a lot like birthday parties to me.
Proverbs 23:24-25 states:
The father of a righteous one will without fail be joyful; the one becoming father to a wise
one will also rejoice in him. Your father and your mother will rejoice, and she that gave
birth to you will be joyful.
Too bad you weren't around when this was written Bruce, you could have stayed the hand of the author and told him that this was a "worldly" sentiment, or at least have asked him to add in: "But there is one day in which they must not rejoice over the birth of their children and that is on the anniversary of their children's birth."
Witnesses are not "following the Bible" by refraining from birthdays. There is no biblical rule or principle against it. In fact, if anything --as we've just seen--there are precedents and principles in favor of it. So, they must be following an arbitrary rule issued by the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society. This fact is obvious to every honest person except those that worship at the feet of that particular organization. They are the Pharisees of today: making up strict laws where none exist, while neglecting love.
Bruce
of course there is no one scripture that specifies Christmas for there was no Christmas back in the day. However did not Jesus say to celebrate his death there was no mention of his birth.As for TG birthdays Halloween and the rest of the holidays they as not only just the Bible states are of pagan origin. Witnesses also don't condone smoking and that was long before smoking was deemed to be a health problem. As far as them not partaking of wordly celebrations or anything to do with this world i beleve correct me if i am wrong did not Jesus say we are no part of this world. But then i guess you have to believe that the Bible is the word of God and that Witnesses follow the Bible it is all really that simple and that just may be the problem.
Merri-Ella
June 12, 1957 is when the surgeon general officially declared that there was a casual relationship between smoking and lung cancer. (http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/ps... It wasn't until 1973 that the JW's decided they were going to ban smoking; and they gave people 6 months to quit. (Watchtower, June 1, 1973, page 340.) So that blows "Witnesses also don’t condone smoking and that was long before smoking was deemed to be a health problem." out of the water. I was a JW for 22 years, and the information and "facts" they spout, are not things they have researched, it's information they have been told over and over again. Do your own research and don't just repeat the WT.
Paul
The bible is just abook..not even written by those the books are atributed to...It is no more "The truth" than Harry Potter...
smmcroberts
Harry Potter's not the truth???
Seriously, Paul, you make an excellent point: Why debate about what the Bible says if it's not "God's word"? The only thing is: try telling this to a Witness and they'll shut down because it's too overwhelming: threatening the very basis of their belief system.
It's sometimes productive, though, to nit-pick at these little things outside of their "core beliefs" that so obviously reveal the lack of consistency in the WT "logic". Once you see that the WT is wrong about the little things you're ready to at least admit the possibility that they could be wrong about the bigger issues.
Lauren
The caught sleeping biblical quote reminds me more of the "stay awake!" idea, the keep on the watch..message that the dull wt promotes.
Irony pervades all their teachings, they are full of un logical gymnastics, their only purpose is to keep conformants continuously conforming.
A person joins in on a party, presumably non jws will be present, fun may come into the event too. Fun that is not regulated and observed by the wt programmers and ever watching and reporting eyes of other jw's.
Therefor parties, celebrations are a danger, not to you but to the wt enclosed separated cult.
Plus fun and human connection in the real sense make an impression on a person, making them want to return for more and remember denial and suffering are proof of loyalty to God/ wt.
Dyllen
Teeny, so many JWs complain about how "disgusting" the world is for having a good time but there is nothing wrong with a siesta because my cousins from Sicily run a convenience store and a train station store, and they look forward to having their afternoon siesta when lunch is over because they work pretty damn hard from 7am! I looked up the scriptures myself and found out it doesn't say anywhere in the bible that's bad to celebrate birthdays or Christmas parties. When John got his head cut off it's because those people who were rich for back then, got greedy and after all, didn't the father say he would get A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G for his lovely daughter?
Again, great article, Teeny! :-)
Juan Viejo
Good one, Teeny!
The Watchtower chooses to ignore that the ancient and Christian era Hebrews were always celebrating something. The crowning of a new king, jubilees, etc. Their celebrations were both religious and secular because in their culture the two were one and the same.
Classic example is Thanksgiving in the USA. For some it is a semi-religious holiday, but for most, it is like Passover for the Jews - a time to come together with family and friends to share food and drink and maybe even pray or just say thanks!
You are right - Samson is an idiot and needs a sharp kick in the shins (not that I'm promoting violence or anything...)
JV
Samson
I take a siesta whenever I can. If the Organization were to outlaw siestas, I would ask them to provide a very good biblical reason.
Your article is null and void because there are countless scriptures that point us to be no part of the world and therefore not celebrate Xmas and other holidays.
Next time, try harder.
smmcroberts
Samson,
You missed the point. The "very good biblical reason" is given above: Someone was murdered and beheaded in the only instance related of a siesta in the Bible.
That's the same reason the organization gives for not celebrating birthdays.
If you admit it's not a good Scriptural reason, then I guess you are now free to start celebrating birthdays. I hope you enjoy your new-found freedom!
Teeny
Samson, if you're no part of the world, please commission NASA to send you and your fellow Witnesses to another world.
PS. If you were nearby, I'd kick you in the shin.











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Ash
Wow, why are people bashing the JWs about not celebrating holidays that, in fact, DO have pagan roots? I mean, I understand people have issues with them, but they are not the only organization that realizes the true origins of Christmas. Do you all realize that up until, I think it was the year 1820, Christmas was banned and outlawed in America by the founding colonies here??? Please, at least do some research and stop bashing the JWs about Christmas and Halloween simply because they are calling a spade a spade. Here is a great piece done regarding the history of Christmas ---> http://youtu.be/gwtoH3zadXA (and no, it is NOT a religious video, nor was it put together by the JWs - these are "worldly" people). Be honest, at least, when putting information out there - Christmas was definitely rooted in pagan celebrations, and some of those "harmless" things that people partake in as part of the Christmas celebrations still are references to pagan beliefs systems and practices. If you'd prefer to look up the video yourself and not use the link above, search on youtube for "Christmas Exposed". Again, not trying to knock anyone here, and no, I am not a JW, although I was raised one, but the facts regarding Christmas and other holidays are that they DO have pagan origins, STILL contain idols and practices (traditions) that reflect some of the original pagan practices and idols, and JWs are NOT the only group of people that refuse to celebrate the holiday based on this knowledge. So, it's not right to bash someone because they want to teach their children how to stand up for something they believe in.
JimmyCMulligan
"Christmas was definitely rooted in pagan celebrations, and some of those “harmless” things that people partake in as part of the Christmas celebrations still are references to pagan beliefs systems and practices."
So what? What makes paganism any less valid or dangerous than your interpretation of Christianity?
sergio
Andrew I'm happy that your daughter was in a Christmas play but most of all she had a smile and fun. I have a seven year old daughter and she does all the Christmas plays, take a picture with Santa, but most of all she is have fun. I love to see every child happy on Christmas.
I have a sister-in-law with two boys that are JW. They don't believe in Christmas but they go shopping before Christmas. Like Maria says they do thing behind doors. So no one in there cult won't know what they are doing. Just the other day I had Christmas music on and one of her sons cover his ears so he won't listen to the music. That right there is a cult. Some one tells them don't listen to Christmas music because it EVIL.
So does that makes every kid in a play singing Christmas music EVIL.?
Maria Rodriguez
Hi Marcos The smile you put on your children face is just an apparent or a superficial smile. I would like to hear from your kids to know exactly are they really feel. I am 100% sure they will contradict your comment. Be real to yourself. By your comment I can tell you are following the GB blindly , but take some some times read the bible for yourself . Stop being man's folower . If the Gb comes with a new light tomorrow and said it's ok to celebrate christmass i am sure you will celebrete it. JWs are just like puppet in yhe strings of WTO's Hand. You are lost guys get a life. and let celebrate Christmass all the way... Jingo bell all the way.
PS jws are committed adulter fornication in secret ( thats ok AS long as they don't catch them it is not a sin) but under no circunstance they will not celebrate birthdays or chrismass. You are a bunch of Pharisees. HYpocrytes. Get a life.. and be real to yourselves.
alana
im a christian who loves the bible, i my self feel that if someone is a christian and they want to celebrate thats ok, as long as its NOT PAGAN IN WHAT THERE DOING..they hafto ask themselves do i drink like a fish at this time of year? do i go into debt to put presents under a tree ? is all my focus on indulging my flesh especially around this time of year and not on the God of the bible i claim to worship at this time of year? have i lied to my children and told them there is a santa ? knowing full well he seems to claim to be omnipresent like God himself? (santa becomes an idol) YOU CAN CELABRATE WITH YOUR CHILDREN THAT YOU ARE A FAMILY, THAT YOU HAVE ONE ANOTHER , YOU CAN HAVE A BEAUTIFUL HOME MADE TURKEY DINNER WITH ALL THE TRIMMINGS AND NOT BE PARTISIPATING IN PAGANISM.and i dont hafto celebrate christs birth because he wasnt born on dec 25th anyways, AND HE WANTED US TO REMEMBER HIS SACRAFICIAL DEATH, NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT CELAEBRATING HIS BIRTH.. ..some of you who have commented that you make your children smile , im sure you do but what about this time of year when the festivities are all around them and its hard to smile when the are left out of everything, what im saying is why not celebrate your family and do someting special ..IT DOESNT HAFTO BE PAGAN.. you can even put up lights and make winter scenes in your homes .. and even leave them up until winter is almost over .. i love to hang snow flakes in my house, and have out holly leaves, and pointsettas ,all are winter decorations ..fake snow can be a beautiful thing to decorate with..and its something you and your kids can look forward to..of course you can celebrate alot all yr long and give gifts...the winter to me is the funnest because of the unusaul decorating of snow and holly and the rich beautiful colors and sparkle of ice decorations, and its cold out and its just plain cozy around that time of yr..AND ALL THE CHILDREN ARE HOPING FOR A BEAUTIFUL BLANKET OF SNOW.....ITS JUST PLAIN EXCITEING ..nothing in the bible tells you to not be able to enjoy your family he gave you, IN THE WINTER...i dont know do jehovah witnesees do something this time of yr with there kids?
Frank
I am also openly celebrating the holiday myself and little by little after many years, I am starting to enjoy the holiday again. For many years after I abandoned the JW cult, I really couldn't enjoy the holiday season much and I was always depressed whenever they came around. I did put a smile on my face and faked enjoyment just for my family's sake, but deep down, I felt miserable and that misery was caused by the JW cult as for the brief two year period that I was following them, I was depressed whenever Christmas came around and that depression continued for a long time even after I left that terrible cult when I discovered how phony they really are and that they weren't who they claimed to be and that they weren't all that they were cracked up to be.
Before the JW's I really enjoyed this time of year. I always looked forward to this each and every year and it was always wonderful. It wasn't just Christmas. It was just to be around my family for a while and having time off from school to be with my family for that time. I even looked forward to the holiday specials that came on TV each and every year and though they repeated them every year, my enjoyment never faded. I was always happy and giddy whenever the season rolled around and I even participated in many other things like parties and such.
It all changed when I chose to follow the JW's. I stopped everything abruptly and I got depressed. For that two years, I was depressed whenever that time of the year rolled around. I fooled everyone in the JW's that I knew, but deep down, I was miserable. sad and felt really alone. For that brief time period, I always felt alone when I was in that terrible cult. I later realized that the choice that I made to follow them was a terrible mistake that I made and I wish that I didn't get involved with them in the first place. Those two years that I spent in there are gone forever and I will never get them back. I could kick myself for even thinking of getting involved with them in the first place. Live and learn, I suppose.
Over the last couple of years, I am slowly starting to enjoy the season again. Last year, I returned to my old church and it has been wonderful. I also have many of those classic TV specials on DVD and I also started a new tradition for myself a few years ago, I also watch the complete controversial "Silent Night, Deadly Night" film series the week before the Christmas holiday week begins. I have all five of the movies in the series on DVD and I enjoy them all. Yes I do. Little by little, I am getting back into the swing of things and maybe just maybe, I will be the way that I used to be whenever the holiday season comes around again. The best thing about this now is that I can watch whatever I want without any of those ignorant JW types telling me that I can't. That is the best thing about it all.
Thanks for this informative blog. Keep up the good work. I look forward to reading more of your informative writings about the real truth about the terrible JW cult.
Marcos Fidelio
You said "it’s [Christmas] just a time of the year for some fun and to spend some quality time with family, and put a smile on children’s faces."
I don't know about you, but I have fun with my kids each and every day. I also spend time with them every day. Oh, don't let me forget, I also put a smile on my children's faces too.
You're no longer a Jehovah's Witness and have to just look forward to certain days that you can enjoy with your kids. Fair enough, I understand that, but please, don't push your unparently (if there is such a word) behavior on us!
Frank
Andrew
You also seem to be forgetting one major thing regarding JW's and children. Their ineffective way of handling child sex abuse cases within their ranks. The JW's and their society are nothing more than a paradise for pedophiles and all other sorts of perverts. I have talked with many EX-JW's who are now grown up and they have said that when they were children, they actually wanted to try and join in with the celebrations in school and also, to see the school's programs during this time of the year, but couldn't because their parents said that all of that was all a very big "No-No". It's bad enough that the JW's deprive their children of fun during this time of the year, which includes participating in Halloween festivities with others, but to hide and protect pedophiles from the proper authorities and do little if nothing to protect the real victims, which are the children. The worst part is when the parents of the sexually abused child do the right thing and courageously go to the authorities and turn the pervert who molested their child in and then get kicked out and subsequently shunned for simply doing the right thing. The whole thing really stinks.
Each and every time I hear in the news about the JW's doing more to protect pedophiles and all other sorts of perverts and offering no protection for their child victims, it makes me even more overjoyed that I kicked the JW's to the curb 18 years ago and simply ignore them when they come knocking on my door. I no longer want no part of them as I simply and willfully refuse to worship with any group who makes their organizational styled religion into a hide out and paradise for pedophiles and perverts of all other sorts.
Thanks again for everything that you do on this blog to make people aware of what type of people the JW's and the WTBTS really are. Keep up the great work as it is a very valuable and very important thing that you and the rest of your people here are doing. Keep it up. You are all doing a wonderful job.
Andrew
Frank, don't think I'm forgetting that at all. We've written a number of posts about child abuse in the Jehovah's Witnesses. This post was about something else :-) Thanks!
Frank
I know that. The reason why I brought that point up is that when the JW's deprive their own children of fun things during this time of the year, it also happens to be another form of child abuse. This is another form of child abuse. This type of abuse sets a child up for emotional problems later in life. Aside from it being another form of child abuse, it is also a practice known as legalism. I know this because I was a victim of this type of thing because my father, though not a JW, but a so called "non-denominated" type of Christian, used legalism on me. He deprived me of things that I enjoyed and things that I wanted to do. Today, I am still working on overcoming these emotional issues as I have been in therapy for the vast majority of my life as a result of this stuff as it wasn't just the JW's, though they did contribute much to what I am still going through, but also the way that my father was with me also. I am still working on overcoming these things and also from all the traumatic stuff that my father did and threw on me repeatedly. I have had it pretty rough myself.
Again, this is just another form of child abuse. In my hometown, a son of a JW elder that I knew actually committed suicide as a result of the way that the JW's and the WTBTS were regarding such things as he also was in therapy and was taking medication as well, but chose to end his life as he couldn't take all the baloney anymore. That young man was just another victim of the JW's and that is really sad. It all goes to show you that the JW's get off on depriving their own children of fun and making repeatedly read and study the bible constantly as a means of a replacement for the fun things that their children should be experiencing.
Thanks again Andrew and to all your helpers for all the hard work that you are doing. Keep it up.
Flo
Honestly,Marcos,as a teen growing up in a JW environment,I can safely say I'd rather have loving "wordly" parents than brain washed tools that are so eager to please the Watchtower co that they are completely oblivious to the well being of their children. As I'm sure you are.
Merry Christmas.
Geowyn
I don’t know about you, but I have fun with my kids each and every day. I also spend time with them every day. Oh, don’t let me forget, I also put a smile on my children’s faces too.
Yes, dragging them to meetings, making them study WTBTS articles and stopping them taking part in after school activities with their friends must really make them happy.
I am sure your home is filled with fun and laughter.
Andrew
Who said Christmas is the ONLY time you can spend with your kids? What silly non-logic and I hope everyone can see how foolish you sound.
And no, you don't know about me. I spend time with my kids every single day and can't get enough of them. I don't need to schedule a day a year to enjoy time with my kids. I usually try to be respectful in the comments, but rather than just disagree with me you've actually gone so far to insult my parenting. You're a complete egotistical moron. I am sure your children have big smiles on their faces when you pull them out of class in front of all their peers. Tool.
Freddy
Well said !!!
Carol Ali
Well said!










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Shanon
Wow that was unusual. I just wrote an very long comment but after I
clicked submit my comment didn't appear. Grrrr... well I'm not writing all that over again.
Anyway, just wanted to say wonderful blog!
kimbal
There's a big Child Abuse case going on in Victoria, Australia - with regard to a former Elder going to court on the 1st March 2013. And Elder I use to knock around with when we were youths in the same congregation.
Added to the case, kids in the congregation have pooled their pocket money to start legal action against the congregation over the matter.
Here are the links >
http://www.theage.com.au/victo...
http://www.theage.com.au/victo...
Also you might like to read the book called " Sex In The Sect " - by Vicki J.
it's an Australian book published in 1995 about Vicki's case in 1966 with her father who was a respected Congregation Overseer / Elder.
niki pacheco
Why is that most Jehovahs Witnesses I know have a lot of money and big homes and yet are supposed to live a simple life and live like the end will come anytime? Just a thought. Niki Pacheco
Maria Rodriguez
in response to NIKI. Why? It is because they don"t believe in what they preach. It is just formal. There is no substance in their beliefs.
Gerry Woodham
I am not a JW basher just a fader who was very disillusioned by the recent deceit of the GB and as a 40 year loyal witness who had served in many capacities. I have come to believe that religion poisons so much in life as History demonstrates and in all religions there are skeletons in the cupboards and JWs are no exception. If the Gb would come clean over their past and also admit to how they have messed up peoples lives and their extreme sorrow for this I and many thousands may feel we have been to harsh in our own judgement and return as we all still have all good friends in the Org. To me the rank and file are still some of the finest people you can wish to meet Some of my family are DFD this shunning arrangement is heinious and was never sanctioned by Russell only saddened him. Even Paul expresses his sadness for those who had left I cannot imagine him ignoring them or crossin g the road to miss them ?
When we make a BIG mistake in life or business then always apologise in a BIG way ! It does wonders for the ego, the credibility and for how others view us. When the GB do that watch the result ?
kimbal
A list of Jesus Accomplishments since 1914 through the last 100 years.
He has allowed man to have two World Wars and numerous other wars he has allowed; including the dropping of the Atom Bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. He has allowed Terrorism to skyrocket and corrupt Governments to exist in bearing his name - the USA, Britain & Australia are Christian countries yet they all kill children in Iraq ( and many other places ) and send their children to war no different to the Muslims they are killing.
Christ has ALLOWED the child molesters to get off scot-free in his unholy Organization, while silencing the innocent who speak out about its corruption. He has allowed them to lie about date, after date, after date - and not bring any justice nor compensation to peoples lives why have been effected,
The list of course goes on and on; - but when one who has the power to change it all, namely Christ, idly stands by and LETS IT HAPPEN, without intervening, that makes him a bigger criminal than the perpetrators.
It's no wonder I have now become a hardened Satanist and glorify the Antichrist.
As Christ and his people lie while bearing his name, then everything he says about Satan has to be a lie as well. Why believe one word from such a deity.
Just as it says - "In the beginning was the word and the word was" a big lie ! ( John 1:1 )
smmcroberts
Kimbal:
You make a good point with that list of "accomplishments."
But "not believing one word" would of course involve not believing in the existence of "Satan" or an "Antichrist" as well.
If there's no "Christ" then there's no "antichrist" and if there's no god than there's no "opposer" of god (i.e. Satan).
kimbal
Actually smmcroberts your 100% correct - its all relative.
So playing the game on their turf means, in their minds that I'm aligned with the Devil and the Antichrist. Everything can be inverted and have its opposite interpretation. If Christ really exists, as I believe he does, - then I want his head on a chopping block as I do Jehovah's for the damage they have done to so many lives including my own, The witnesses are but a small group in the big picture - but never-the-less a very arrogant group that needs to be humbled.
The devil is accused of being the "damage maker" yet he would not have walked out of heaven with a third of the Angels if God's house was squeaky clean. In other words " those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" and presently God's house has already started to shatter.
Andrew
Thank God Jesus and God don't exist.
Maria Rodriguez
Happy BD JWB. Not to forget Jw's have a big event to celebrate soon Jesus 100 years of reign next year 2014. I am wondering if they start planning for that big event....1914-2014' or do they silently keep 1914 in the back burner.Please submit a list of accoplishments done by Jesus during his 100 years of reign.
Maria
Love this site!!!! Faithful reader here!
Sally
Happy birthday, JWB! Balloons, cake, and silly party hats to you!
smmcroberts
Happy birthday, JWB!!!
150 freed souls is truly awesome!
I look forward to a new year of smiles from your blogs.
Question: How does one access the pilot podcast?
niki pacheco
Never been happier and with a clear mind.
Niki Pacheco
niki pacheco
I was disfellowshipped in november of 2012 because they did not want me speaking openly about being molested in the kingdom hall washroom in the basement when i was 9 years old by a brother. They tried to cover it up then and now.
I am happy to be gone and soon will suing.
Niki Pagnotta
Ajax On
Canada
Michael Gailius
So sorry, Nic. I always sensed that you were carrying a lot of pain inside. Hope you're doing well, now. Love and support. MG










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Erica
Hi Sharon! :) I think so MUCH of you despite our short term relationship. I am moving out of my Mother's house (YAY!!!) on Tuesday and by Thursday when my mother isn't hovering (she's taking off Tuesday and Wednesday to help me which is VERY sweet of her I know) I will have the opportunity to talk with you more if you have the opportunity. I am just so AMAZED that you have come to these conclusions so QUICKLY after 53 years in WT. No confusion? No deeply unanswered questions? Personally, while being physically (and emotionally) much better after getting out of the WT, I am still kind of a mess. Looking for your help. Call me anytime. And if you don't get a chance, I'll call u late next week when I am FINALLY on my own again. Love, Erica
sharon
Dear Erica, I am so happy you're leaving your mom's...that is wonderful news! I can't seem to find your phone #, I don't know where I wrote it down. I know they won't let me post mine...I hope you have it already...or you could leave me a message on FB, my name is Sharon Lee Murray I'm the one with the long blonde hair. Hope to hear from you soon...it is so good to hear from you again!
Nico
So I was skimming works by St. Gregory of Nyssia for awhile now, not real page turners for me I prefer scifi fiction, but it's struck me that the JW's have plagiarized parts of his book on "On The Soul & the Resurrection" to death... Pun intended. The idea that when the time comes for God to resurrect them from the dead He will create a new body for them from His memory was in fact 1st published by St Gregory around 300 AD. Insights into the beliefs of the early followers indeed. Incites into the Early Catholic Church fathers, who occasionally got kicked out of power for being outlandish or corrupt, is more accurate. I get such a good giggle out of running across something I read in a WT in this book and realizing it was from the Catholic Church they so despise. heehee
sharon
Nico, that is amazing! Wow what an eye opener! I don't know if you read my previous comment about the pyramid having 144,000 I think ball joints was so incredible...my jaw literally dropped. Russell applied that to mean Rev, which is why he said it was God's eternal witness. I have no doubts about that now. It is so easy why they are trying to distance themselves from him. So why do they keep 1914 as a principle doctrine? I caught a website, I don't know if I mentioned this earlier. I'll have to find it again, my computer was humming with all the windows I had opened I had to close down a dozen and that one was included. But if you need me to find it, I'm sure my history key will find it. Anyway, back to what I caught, it was a Jewish man saying the end of times came in 1948 because according to the bible, Israel would again have to be a nation. That happened in 1948. The bible says a generation of man is 80 years. You add that to 1948, which also according to Jewish calender, it was the end of 6,000 years. 6,001 began in 1948. I figure around 2028, don't you?
Nico
Hey Sharon is this the show you watched? We cut the cable a couple years ago.
http://shop.history.com/ancien...
sharon
Dear Nico, without seeing it, I would say yes, only because I haven't seen another show that updates this one. If you have it or think of buying it, it would be well worth the money. It was astounding how it worked. Please let me know how you liked it. :)
Erica
Hi smmcroberts. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. I feel so sad, though. Do you really believe that a hummingbird just evolved by accident? I am definitely having a crisis of confidence and I put a lot of thought into your words. When I hear words like yours, I just turn it all emotional and just want a hug and want someone to clear up what seems to be a crazy world. I'm lost. Very lost. Thank you for your contribution. I will take your words under serious consideration. Love, Erica.
sharon
Dear Erica, I'm so sorry you are sad. I know all this is a lot to take in. You must be kind to yourself. (((hugs))) We are just used to being told what to believe, now we're on our own. We may feel a little lost, but you'll find your way. If there's something to learn about the human spirit, it doesn't stay down long. There are 5 stages to any traumatic episode in your life. Each stage can last relatively short, or can last a very long time. I call it DABDA. Right now you are still in the 1st stage, denial. The 2nd is anger, the 3rd bargaining, 4th depression, and finally 5th, acceptance. There's no telling how each individual will work thru the stages. Personally for me, anyone who can have a book written over centuries of time to predict prophesy's that have already come true is certainly God to me. How else can you explain 2 tim 3:1-5, who else would know that children would be disobedient to parents in the last days? That there would be no natural affection. I hope I helped a little Erica...(((hugs)))
smmcroberts
Hi Sharon,
Since the Bible cannot possibly be "God's word," it doesn't prove the existence of God:
http://smmcroberts.net/religio...
The prophecies in the Bible did not all come true, and most (if not all) of them were written after the fact:
http://smmcroberts.net/blog/th...
It's really a no-brainer to predict that children will be disobedient to parents; that didn't just start in 1914 (or your revised date of 1948.)
sharon
Like the grunge generation my youngest was part of. Ick! I look forward to more 'bantering' with you. Especially since both our goals are to get people out of that family destroying cult.
smmcroberts
Hi Sharon,
I've loved our banter too.
It appears that the quote I attributed to Hesoid is spurious.
However, the point I was trying to make is still a valid one: I think the older generation has pretty much always viewed the younger generation as being disrespectful. Even in the Bible, provision was made for stoning uppity children, so it must've been seen as a problem even then.
In our own time: before the punks, there were the hippies, before that the beatniks, before that the greasers, before that the flappers...
The younger generation always seems odd to us as they seek out their own identity apart from their parent's generation.
sharon
Finally something! I could say it, but I loved our banter back and forth, thank GOODNESS! ;)
smmcroberts
Hi Sharon,
"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on
frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly disrespectful and impatient of restraint."
--Hesiod, 8th century BCE
BTW: I was born in 1956 as well. I remember watching Petticoat Junction too. At last: somethings in common! :-)
sharon
How can you say that about children? Before the 50's rock and roll era, kids during that time generally listened to their parents as a whole. I just watched Petticoat Junction this morning. It came on tv originally in the mid-60's, I know it's only tv, but kids were still being shown as respectful and obeying their parents. Since I've been around a while, since 1956, I remember when the bad kids from the city, I was raised on Long Island, NY. When they started attending school, that was when we got a lot of rebellion. You know the passage, do not be mislead, bad association spoils useful habits. How do they show kids today, in charge of things constantly bettering their parent. I see no other proof than that.
sharon
When I said I call it DABDA, I mean that literally. Professionals call it, d, a, b, d, a. I put it all together and say it as one word. Just wanted to clear that up...
smmcroberts
I sincerely wish I could give you that hug, Erica.
All I can tell you is what I've learned, and what has worked for me.
Strictly speaking, nothing evolved by "accident" -- there were reasons things evolved the way they did. They weren't "thought out" reasons, but reasons none the less. Take a deep breath and read Darwin's Origin of the Species. It's a great read. You'll see that evolution is a reasonable conclusion from the facts existing in the world. You really already believe the parts that make it up:
1. Not all offspring are exactly the same: there is variation.
2. Animals tend to have more offspring than can survive.
3. The offspring that are better adapted to the environment (e.g. slightly thicker fur) are the ones most likely to survive.
4. The offspring that survive are the ones that will reproduce, passing along their more adaptive genes.
There's really nothing to argue about in those four points until we label them "natural selection." Then people get all upset for some reason. For many people the big question is: can natural selection account for the really big changes? All of the evidence points to an answer of Yes.
For me, it's not "sad" that the hummingbird evolved, instead it makes me feel closer to it: more "at one" with the universe, since we have all evolved out of the same "star stuff."
Maybe you only THINK you're lost. You're still in the same world you were in before. You're just looking at it differently: instead of there being the Big Man upstairs supposedly looking out for us (but evidently doing a really poor job of it) you now have a world full of people: some of whom really do care (even though they may not agree about everything, and are still working out their own philosophies of life.)
We don't all have to agree about everything (as we did when we were in the Org.) We can argue our points, and state our reasons why we accept one viewpoint and reject another [in genuine discussions, in contrast to WT studies in which they gave us the answers AND the questions!] But that's less important than the freedom we have gained to explore and think for ourselves.
It's fine with me if you choose not to believe that hummingbirds evolved. I still love you for having the courage to break free from that cult and face the world on your own terms.
I recommend the ex-JW forums for more support: http://smmcroberts.net/poetry/...
http://www.jehovahs-witness.ne...
(And JWB is going to have its own forum soon!)
You can also email me anytime (follow the link on my name to my website, and then the "Contact Me" link.)
Personally, I became suicidally depressed after leaving the WT religion. Don't let that happen to you: there are now support systems that exist. Please take advantage of them.
sharon
To think the Creator needed a creator doesn't make sense. Then you could go back eons saying this creator created this, that creator created that. I really don't believe we evolved into anything. More resources have been made available to us as humans as the need arouse. Why is it that we cannot come close to building the pyramids? Because they were closer to perfection than we are. They were able to design such things, what about the incredible Cleopatra's library, and the medications they used? They had the knowledge of such things, where we just guess on how to cure diseases today that they had cures for a lot of today's diseases. They didn't have the technology as we have today, because they really had no need to further their knowledge of God or things of the earth. Perhaps they might have worshipped the wrong god, but in the history of humans, they have always worshipped some god. Until communism and other beliefs interfered with their original belief. Ask your grandparents if they are not jw's or even if they are, if their grandparents believed in God. I'm sure you'll be surprised the answer is yes. Even the American Indians worship the Great Spirit. All across the earth people believe in a higher power, or I should say most people. But in their past generations they have believed in God. :)
Nico
Just for the record I agree with Sharon on many points. When you claim "We're the only ones with the TRUTH" over all the millions of people who've ever believed in God(s) throughout all of human history - it just really smacks of the old you know who to me.
If you use scientific Theory you search for an answer by process of elimination not just read an Atheistic book that already fits your Atheistic leanings & say "ah ha! I'm right." All those parallel universes, worm holes, & nebula but no room for astral projection or any 1st hand accounts of heaven or hell. You're asking how Sharron & others can believe in God but how can there be no room for spirits, angels or God(s) or ghosts of any kind for you? I don't understand that any more than you seem to understand that I still have faith in a creator.
We're so limited & ignorant right now compared to what we will someday know, I don't discount we could have lost information along the way, & there's so little we can prove of our Accepted Theory's. So why box yourselves in at all? Haven't we been boxed in enough growing up JW? I certainly was. I'm not saying run to join a Church or try becoming a witch or even give up being atheist but that your minds appear to be just as closed as they were before you left the Un-truth. The JW's wanted you to view them as all or nothing, that's what cults do, & that's exactly the trap you fell into. Warriors for God. Warriors against Theism. Can't ya'll just relax? As freeing as it feels not to be in a cult anymore maybe you're still doing exactly what they wanted you to do. They can point right at you & say "See they have no hope."
Also wow yes Sharron the American Indians had some beautiful religions. Especially when it came to caring for "Mother Earth" Just lovely right? :) Wish they were all better documented.
Good night,
Nico
sharon
Yes Nico they did have beautiful religions...and you're right they should have been documented for future generations. smm, I can understand where you're coming from. But listen to my point of view for a moment regarding science. No science would be here for us to understand if it wasn't first created by a supreme being who knew the laws of science. Point, the ark of the covenant struck people dead if touched. I watched something on the History Channel about the ark. They created one just like it according to the measurements in the bible, lined it exactly how it said. Once it was all together, it was like a strong car battery fully charged and exposed, with nothing to protect anyone except for using wooden poles. I thought that was fascinating. I checked out your website, very interesting...thank you for sharing it with us. ;)
sharon
smm, I don't know where this will wind up on the thread, but to answer your comment about God zapping Uzzah, He in fact did. Just like the godfathers in NY and other places have been accused of murder because they said to do it. Since God designed it, in my opinion He did in fact do the zapping.
smmcroberts
Human minds created the scientific method, just as more primitive human minds created the idea of gods.
The ark is another good example of our ignorance attributing things to "God." The Bible says God zapped Uzzah for touching the ark, when in fact it was just electricity!
smmcroberts
Hi Nico,
I'm relaxed, and I'm open to anything, I just insist on using the most tried and true method of verification for all claims: evidence.
The Amazing Randi has a million dollar prize waiting for you as soon as you can demonstrate an astral projection, ghost, or spirit to scientific scrutiny. I'd say that's being generously open-minded. Funny thing, though, in all the years this has been offered, no one has collected.
Being open minded is not the same as believing whatever someone tells you. You have to have some basis for determining what's true and what's bogus. I was far too gullible when I read the WT publications, and got sucked in due to my naivety. I'm not going to let that happen again.
I didn't "just read an atheist book" -- I read widely and re-educated myself when I left the JWs. I looked into other religions, I read the Bible again, cover-to-cover, I read Darwin, history, science, psychology, philosophy, etc., etc... I concluded that the scientific method was the best, most reliable method of discerning the truth. I will continue to use it until something better comes along.
With the scientific method, all theories are tentative: there is no certainty, there is just what fits the facts the best, subject to revision in light of more data. I contrast this to religion which is usually based on ancient writings or dogmas that must be defended (or twisted) against better understanding. A good case in point is the Bible's false depiction of the universe. People try to reinterpret it in light of the facts, but it's all deception. Clearly the Bible writers were wrong; they did not have divine knowledge of the universe. But being "cast in stone" they can't revise, only "apologize." Science, in contrast, is the method of revising in light of better understanding.
I think that's so much better than justifying a belief on the basis that people have believed it for a long time. So what if millions of people have believed in God? Millions of people believed the Earth was the center of the universe for a very long time too (certainly longer than they've believed the truth) but I don't see that as a convincing argument for believing in an Earth-centered universe. People are often wrong. So you have to have a method for determining truth apart from the argumentum ad populum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A....
smmcroberts
Hi Nico,
On that article about remote viewing: It seems the newspaper it came from may not be too reliable: http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/qu...
The "scientists" in the article seem to accept the alleged results as significant, but I would ask the simple question: If someone were able to do remote viewing, why would they only be right 34% of the time? i.e. why would they be wrong way more than they would be right, and how does that constitute any kind of proof?
If the government intends to use these "remote viewers" somehow, it would only make sense to use them as negative indicators (whatever they think they "see" has a 66% chance of being wrong.)
Nico
Dear Smm, I'm sorry I thought a link in my post up with my e-mail address but it doesn't appear. Here's a blog summarizing some of the scientific tests done on Astral Projection, also called remote viewing, they were $20 million studies in fact done by the US government.
http://deanradin.blogspot.com/...
Haven't read your link yet but I will tonight.
Have a great day! Nico
smmcroberts
Hi Sharon,
You said: "To think the Creator needed a creator doesn’t make sense." Yes, that's the point Andrew was making. When you said that aliens needed a creator you implied that every existing thing needs a creator. So, if God exists, who created God? Then you have the absurdity of the infinite regression you have described.
So, the statement: "created things prove a creator" is shown to be faulty from the get-go.
You said: "I really don’t believe we evolved into anything." But it's not a matter of belief. It's a matter of accepting the facts around us and the explanation that best fits these facts (which is what a scientific theory is.) You could just as well say something like "I don't believe the Earth revolves around the Sun," but no one is asking you to believe that; it's just a fact. Your saying that you don't believe it is not some sort of argument against the evidence.
Yes, in the past the majority of people (but not all) believed in the supernatural. The past was a more ignorant time. When we didn't understand the cause behind something we said "God did it." For instance: a boulder rolled down the hill and killed someone: "The gods must've been angry with him," would've been our explanation. But now we know about the impersonal natural force of gravity. So we don't need to attribute events to supernatural forces any longer. In the past when we said "God did it" we really just meant "We don't know what caused it."
"God" was just our ignorance.
When you say that ancient Egyptians knew how to cure today's diseases, etc., I think it may be evidence that you're still caught up in some of the WT baloney (which is certainly understandable.) In the past people had much shorter life-spans. They did not know about hygiene or the real cause of disease: they thought the gods were displeased with them, and they would go sacrifice an animal or something to appease the gods. This was seldom very effective.
The scientific method has brought us the knowledge to actually cure and/or contain disease. A good case in point is the eradication of smallpox (which, btw, Pharaoh Ramses V is believed to have died from, please see: http://smmcroberts.net/blog/pu...
sharon
Here's a website I think you'll enjoy...
http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/... Inoculation against the disease began in India before 1000 CE. So this was possible in the ancient world. I didn't mean to just mean Egypt alone, but that time period.
sharon
According to Redford, ancient Egyptian quarrying methods -- the processes for cutting and removing stone -- are still being studied. I copied and pasted this from that website. So we still don't have an entire picture of how to do it. I was reading up on the pyramids, I don't know if anyone saw this or not. But apparently there are 144,00 I think they're called ball joints in a pyramid. Now I see the correlation with the pyramids being Russell's eternal witness. He just applied it to Revelation. Further proof of him being a false prophet and the organization as well.
smmcroberts
http://www.sciencedaily.com/re...
Teeny
Hi Sharon.
Let's talk a little about the pyramids. Can you send me the source material which points out we have no idea how they were built please?
Also, can you imagine Pharaoh seeing an Airbus A380 or the Eiffel Tower? He'd think they were created by gods.
Moving on swiftly to Cleopatra's library. I think she would have preferred Wikipedia.
Don't take for granted the technological advantages that we commonly use today. For instance, we're conversing electronically. Chances are, you're thousands of miles away from me, but I can clearly state my point.
So you see, watching the History Channel isn't sound. Also, you said people have always believed in a god. Can I see your research please?
Read up on how critical thinking works. For instance, in a recent chat with my mother-in-law, she said "oh come on Jaymes, all the scientists have agreed that the flood happened."
I asked her for her sources and I fear your response may be similar to the one she gave me - "oh everyone knows that!"
Regards,
Teeny
P.S. I have a headache. Cleopatra's remedy was to lobotomise the patient. I'll just take an Asprin.
smmcroberts
Sharon,
Infidel doesn't have to work a miracle with a pile of bricks for me to deny that the "beauty and design of our solar system says there is a God."
All it says is that there are natural, unconscious, undirected forces at work, such as gravity.
And, of course, the facts about our solar system (such as its age, and the planets not being stuck in a rotating "firmament" a little ways above our flat planet) put the lie to the creation account given in Genesis.
If there was a God, I'd be inclined to ask: Why would God create lifeless planets and give them multiple moons, and why create so many stars and galaxies, serving no purpose?
The facts of the universe only make sense as the product of blind natural forces at work.
sharon
You may find my response silly, but I've always believed it. I believe we have so many lifeless planets surrounding us is to protect us from asteroids and comets. Remember Shoemaker Levy 9? If it wasn't for Jupiter we would have been devastated. The moon is pock marked more than we are from incoming objects. Someone with higher intelligence had to design us that way. And how do we know there isn't another earth-like planet in another solar system where the people are technically the same as we are. Just starting to advance into space at the same rate as we are. Who can say? I only know about this planet. As regards the flat planet, Christians always believed the earth was round, as regards Is40:22. That is why so many Christians died for their beliefs because the word was the earth was flat. I can only guess that a being with super powers did all this. It makes sense no other way to me. :)
smmcroberts
Sharon,
Here is a very revealing article on this topic that I think you'll find interesting (I certainly did): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B...
sharon
That was amazing. Thank you.
Andrew
As Carl Sagan said, "It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." Because a belief makes you feel better or makes more sense, does not make it true.
smmcroberts
Sharon,
Believing that something is "round" is not necessarily the same as believing it is a sphere. The Bible clearly depicts the Earth as a flat disk [though some passages say it has corners, this may be a figure of speech] which the Sun orbits. Christianity was dragged, kicking and screaming into acknowledging that reality is quite different. Have you ever read about Galileo? He was imprisoned, threatened with torture, and forced to recant his belief that the Earth revolved around the Sun. He was more fortunate than Giordano Bruno whom Christians burnt at the stake in 1600 for holding the same belief. And Cecco d'Ascoli was burnt alive by the church in 1327 for daring to suggest that men may live on the other side of the world.
Please cite your source that Christians ever died for believing that the Earth was not flat. I have never heard this claim in any history book (and I've read many.) It was the Christians who killed people for not believing the false flat Earth notion depicted in their Bibles.
The Moon is pock-marked because it lacks an atmosphere to burn up meteors as they approach.
Why would God create asteroids and comets and then have to create Jupiter to save Earth from them? Why create them in the first place? And what good are the multitude of stars invisible from Earth to the naked eye, and stars which have no habitable planets? Why would God bother to create them when they serve no purpose? It makes no sense: but their existence fits perfectly with a mindless big bang.
Yes, there may be other planets with life on them. [I wonder if Jesus had to go and die on those planets as well.]
Infidel
Wow, first of all I found your points funny and very familiar. But what I'm amazed at is there are so many comments from people that are still theistic...
Once I left this cult, I became an atheist and from there an anti-theist and thought that many ex JWs would at the very least be atheists. Ah well, at least you're not a part of a cult any longer.
Nico
Yes Infidel the important thing is we all got out of a destructive cult!
Infidel
The first tentative step to enlightening ourselves and progressing :)
Andrew
I am also constantly surprised at this. It makes me think that lots of people leave for the wrong reasons. They get upset over a particular doctrine or rule, rather than analyse the bigger picture of whether god exists or not.
Infidel
Interesting, I hadn't thought of it that way before. The reason I left when I was fourteen was I couldn't be bothered and didn't like many of the elders with their snide and self-important attitudes. As I grew older I saw it for what it was and educated myself, turning to conspiracy theories, to the origins of Abrahammic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam), to Buddhism and eventually came to the conclusion that the most powerful thing in the universe is the brain. We don't need to cling to -isms or depend on leadership. Humans have yet to see their fullest potential or even trust in it.
sharon
With all the order in the universe, except for an occasion asteroid, I would say there has to be a God. All the beauty and design of our solar system alone says there is one. There is no denying that. Maybe you can take a pile of bricks and wood and plumbing and place them into a pile and say 'let there be a house'. When you are able to do that then I'll agree with you, until then I can't. I don't mean to sound coarse with you, because I'm not. I just don't understand your point of view. (((hugs)))
Infidel
I hope you are not offended but do not feel moved to apologise if you are when I say that I honestly don't wish to talk with you on the matter of the existence of a deity.
It is my strong belief that every human being on this earth deserves to be educated and not have any of the answers held back from them; however after reading your "arguments" and "reasoning" (note the quotation marks, they're to express my lack of belief that the rebuttals you provide have any real merit) I feel that a discussion with you would invariably lead to neither of us budging and nothing positive being achieved.
As one human being with one life and no purpose assigned to him, I genuinely hope that you find happiness without it imposing on someone else or their happiness; in the end all we KNOW with absolute certainty is we have at the very least one opportunity to be happy and contribute to the happiness of others.
Educate yourself, believe in the strength of human beings, don't be dependent on a deity that may or may not exist. Everything anybody needs is within themselves and in nature.
Andrew
How do you know god designed it? You don't, as there is no evidence for this. I could equally say, "aliens designed it".
sharon
To that I would have to say where did the aliens come from? There has to be a creator of such things. The science and beauty of it all says there is a source of it all happening. It didn't just pop up. Why are we not evolving any further, why are there no monkees making leaps towards being human. Why does everything run with such order, such as gravity.
Andrew
Hi Sharon,
Okay, and where did the creator come from? There had to be a creator of the creator, and so on... Putting your god outside of the constraints you placed on the universe not being able to just 'pop up' is special bargaining. If the universe couldn't have just popped up (and why couldn't it?) then neither can your god. And even if you were right, prove it! How do you know this? You can't possibly know, as there is no evidence for it.
We ARE evolving further (it's a process over millions of years, not thousands), and you assume incorrectly that evolution has the goal of making humans. Monkeys are as equally evolved as humans. They just evolved differently. Evolution is a fact - and it isn't used to explain how life got here in the first place, only how we have so much diversity of life.
If you are genuinely interested in answers to the questions you ask, there are scientific answers. And where there are not, we're working on it. Scientists don't assert an answer until there is evidence for it. The universe existing is not evidence that god does.
Erica
Where's my xanex??
sharon
Dear Erica, I know it's a lot to take in at once. It took me 15 10 hour days to do it, and I'm still researching. There is just so much evidence against the WT it's incredible. Such as the latest thing I came across the Rand Cam. My husband said anyone who owns 50% or more has the say in what the company does. All those people in Malawi, and the WT gets a contract from the Navy! Unbelievable, just unbelievable. Sort of reminds me in that saying, don't do as I do, do as I say. Doesn't it?
smmcroberts
Careful; I think owning stock in the Rand corp., may be erroneous. I think it may be another group that calls itself "Watchtower" -- not the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society. I've been meaning to look into that more thoroughly but haven't gotten around to it. Please share what you find.
Erica
Hi smmcroberts. You are totally freaking me out. I feel like the amount of research I have to do to come to ANY conclusion would be a full time job. And since I'm running a software company and volunteering to help homeless children weekly, I can't devote that much time to it. Some wonderful friends like Sharon and others have shared valuable research with me but it is so MUCH. Idk where to begin, what to think, whether to cry or be happy...I think I'm a serious hot mess at this point.
smmcroberts
Sorry, Erica!
You're not required to figure it all out today (or even within the next year.) Philosophers and theologians have wrestled with this stuff for millennia.
It took me more than a few months before I was ready to give up the Bible and its god[s].
The good thing is that you're now free and open to the wide variety of opinions [and scant knowledge] on these subjects.
Stay calm; many of us have been where you are today, and yes it did seem overwhelming for a while. But eventually we found peace and contentment with our own philosophy of life (which is always a work in progress).












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frogonmytoe
I too got baptised in that pool at Bowes Road, I swear I saw a turd floating in the water as I broke the surface. I remember all but having a breakdown in the weeks before, not sure if I should've been doing it. I guess I shouldn't have! That was in 1991.
Where did you used to sit, in the blinding light and stifling heat upstairs, where you were freer to chat with friends, or in the semi-darkness downstairs, distracted by mothers talking by the cloakroom?
Teeny
Up until my baptism, I wasn't allowed to sit with friends really. As I got older, things obviously changed and I moved upstairs.
As mobile phones and texting became popular, we basically texted each other all day.
The youngsters of today now have smartphones, Twitter, Facebook, etc. I am sort of surprised there are still so many Jehovah's Witness youngsters still around. Oh well, that's what JWB and all the other blogs are here for :-)
Merri-Ella
I would love to say that I completely regret getting baptized, but in the moment I truly felt it was the right thing to do. I was 13. My cousin had just gotten disfellowshipped. My father gave me a stern talking to asking if I wanted to end up like my cousin. I was sure that would never happen. I ended up being baptized with 4 very good friends, all but 1 whom have left. I did not know they were going to be baptized until I had started my questions. At the time, I followed my heart. Even when I chose to leave, I did so knowing the repercussions.
BTW, I was baptized in 1998 and I went to the Pittsfield, Maine congregation. When I left it was 2007 and I was leaving the Bangor, Maine congregation.
Feel free to find me on FB.
Nancy
The year was 1986 and I was 15. All my friends were doing it and it provided me (and my scorned mother) with a real, legitimate reason not to associate with my newly d'f father who, evidently, was Satan himself. I felt tremendous pressure to get baptized, as though this move would show my father just how wrong he was for leaving. I had a responsibility to my mother and I felt like everyone was watching me, waiting to see what direction I would go. Like all good Witnesses I developed a smug, haughty veneer and at age 15 I knew more than just about anyone. Thankfully by age 25 I knew even more and I left it all behind. Also, thankfully, my father, Satan, turned out to be a pretty great person. And a very forgiving one.
smmcroberts
Kudos to you, Maria, for having the courage and strength to leave not only an abusive organization, but an abusive husband as well! I can only imagine how difficult that must've been.
I hope you celebrate your freedom every day by rewarding yourself with the happiness you deserve.
Maria Rodriguez
It was the biggest mistake I have ever made. Like most of you I got baptized when I was 22 years old. My dream was to meet the " perfect brother" who would never cheat on me. Have a family where love peace and harmony reign and of course live forever on paradise earth. In fact my favorite book was " The secret of family happiness" I Had study that book twice before I got married with that " perfect brother" . But it did not take long to realize it was just a dream to find "the secret of family happines" if there's a secret I would have found it. Anyway my to make a long story short, I have to say my "perfect brother ex-husband now" Cheated on me several time with sisters in the hall and at his work place and everywhere for the entire 17 years of marriage. He also mistrated me and our 2 children verbally and physically. and repeatedely said "where else can you go this is the truth. this is the rigt place to be". In the eyes of the brother he was a "perfect brother" always carry a nice smile on his face, participated in every meeting with endless comment. When I finally filed for divorce in 2009, in the eyes of the elders I was the " bad one" Because according to the elders so many other sisters are facing the same problem but they never ask for divorce. Divorce is not an option for a faithfull jw. I made my decision i Divorced that "perfect brother" Dissasociated myself with the org and get back my life. Till today I deeply regret I got involved in that religion. I have paid the the price for being naive .I agree under 18 years old or even after 21 it is unsafe to make long term commitment.
Maria D.
Absolutely loved this post. I can so relate. I was baptized at age 16. Biggest regret of my life. I was raised in the organization since age 4, and NEVER... I repeat, NEVER "made the truth my own" as my mom likes to put it. For some reason, after being pressured over and over again to be baptized, and seeing my younger brother (my mother's golden child) getting baptized at age 12, I thought if I did it--I would FINALLY be accepted by my mom.
Didn't work. All that did was INCREASE the pressure put on me. "You're baptized now. You have to make your hours in field service." or "You're baptized now, why are you not studying for the meetings?" "You're baptize now. You're accountable for your participation in the meetings." Needless to say, I regretted it right away.
And even still, I had no idea what I had gotten myself into.... I didn't really realize that until I LEFT the organization, and subsequently lost almost my entire family in the process. My mom, grandmother, aunts, and uncles have disowned me. They routinely shun me, and speak horrible things about me when all i have done is leave the religion I never agreed with anyway.
I always say how nonsensical it is that a child cannot legally enter into any binding contract while under the age of 18. They can't get a cell phone, can't get married, can't get credit cards, or even make a real decision about what career they want... but somehow are of sound enough mind and maturity to make a LIFELONG commitment to an organization? Nonsense! Do you know how much I have changed since age 16? At age 16 I was certain I was going to marry the guy from Karate Kid... I was SURE that I was going to be a famous singer and songwriter, and subsequently become best friends with Mariah Carey. At age 16--one day I LOVED bacon and eggs, and the next day I was certain I was going to be a vegan. Yeah that sounds like a perfect time to make a decision about the rest of my natural life.
*sigh*
Thank you for this site. I read it religiously (pun intended).
kimbal
I agree and sympathise with your frustrations - but in Australia in the state of Queensland where I live, You can get a driver's licence at 16 and leave home at that age if one so chooses. Parents cannot tell you what to do by law at 16. In some ways your considered an "adult" though you can't do many other things until your 18. Yet the witnesses count you as a spiritual adult at the age of understanding ( being around 10-14 years ) - or so it use to be until the generation theory fell apart.
Teeny
Thanks for the kind words Maria.
It's such a shame that so many non-believers really have no idea what being a teenaged Jehovah's Witness is like.
My mum kept telling me that there was no pressure on me to get baptised. Utter rubbish. In a recent conversation with my mother-in-law, she too said she never pressured my wife into baptism. Rubbish!
The worst point is that the majority of JW parents aren't even aware of the pressure they're stacking on their kids.
Regards,
Jaymes
Maria D.
Jaymes, what would you say is the percentage of people who leave the religion and then become atheists? I am one of them, and several of the people I know who have left the Watchtower are atheists also. Clearly you guys are too. It is interesting to me.. and seems to be a trend inherent to ex-JWs.
Nico
I would be interested in those numbers also Maria. My guess would be, from personal experience the ratio of JW's who become atheist around 70%, Pagan another 20%, & burnt out not practicing Christianity for at least another 5-10 years seems to be the remainder.
Just my hypothesis.
smmcroberts
Hey, according to Wikipedia: "Until the Middle Ages, most baptisms were performed with the candidates naked."
So, if the JW's truly want to emulate the 1st century Christians, let's see them shed their clothes before they strut their stuff into the water. It might cut down on baptisms, but would surely increase the number of onlookers!
I mean, if you're willing to let your children die in order to follow 1st century Christian practices in the 21st century, then you should certainly be willing to jump naked into a baptismal pool.
And when are they going to start baptizing themselves for their dead ancestors? Or are they going to allow the Mormons to continue to steal their thunder as they alone follow the example of those 1st century Christians in this regard:
"Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? " (1 Cor. 15:29 NKJV)
By extension, someone should really get baptized for CT Russell and the Bible Students of his era, since they wouldn't have had a chance to answer or even comprehend that most important baptismal question: "Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?"
"Huh? God's spirit-directed WHAT?"
GCS7000
I met a woman who had studied with the Witnesses for years but delayed getting baptized because of her struggle with tobacco addiction. When her husband began to study with Witnesses, she determined to quit smoking and get baptized along with her husband. I reminded her that baptism is only a symbol of one's having made a dedication to God, and made the following suggestion. I encouraged her to go through the approval process with her husband, and suggested that, after being approved for baptism, they both wait for one year to actually get baptized. I suggested that the reaction of those who had studied with them and of those who had declared them approved for baptism might be very enlightening as to the real spirit of the Witnesses.
GCS7000
Jesus Christ, a perfect man who set the pattern for Christian baptism, waited until he reached the age of 30 before getting baptized. The Watchtower has acknowledged in print that the first century Christians restricted baptism to adults.
smmcroberts
Parents scaring their kids into getting baptized so that they'll be saved through Armageddon just doesn't jive with the words of the supposed first-century "Governing Body":
“Sirs, what must I do to get saved?”
They said: “Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will get saved, you and your household."
(Acts 16:30-31 NWT)
Not only is no baptism required, but belief by one member of the household saves the entire household!
It's a great verse to pull on your parents if they're hounding you to take the plunge. "Uh, Mom & Dad, as long as one of you believes [this crap] you don't have to worry about my salvation: says so right here in the Bible [that you claim to base your lives upon.] (It's best to leave out the words in brackets.)
But I'm sure the WT has some ready sophistry to weasel out of it and "explain away" the discrepancy between their policy and what the Bible actually says.
kimbal
Oh and I might add - I was baptised at 6 months of age in the 'Church of England' by my mother's Priest and again for a second time at 14yo when I was in the Jws and again for a third time at 30yo when I joined another new age cult with my ex-witness wife.
There I had the 5 pointed Pentagram burn't into my Aura with a church ritual by Ananda Tara Shan - head of 'The Church of the Sacred Heart of Maitreya' ( Ascended Master follower and formerly linked to Elizabeth Clare Prophet's 'Summit Lighthouse' ). My third baptism was done as an astral cleansing to rid the JW mindset from my soul and the pentagram is a sign of protection so Christian's will stay away from me with their negative energies. In that way some could say "it was to allow Satan to enter my soul". The reality is I've been preyed upon by both christian and non-christian groups. So I suppose, I've been through the mill - more than once.
I was formerly in the Keon Park Congregtion of Jehovah's Witnesses, in Melbourne, Australia. - Kimbal Summers
kimbal
I got baptised at the last International Convention held in Sydney, Australia in December 1973.
As Armageddon was coming in 1975, so it was drummed into me at 14 years of age, then I had to do something, or I would die at Armageddon. I was the youngest in my congregation to get baptised which made me "ultra spiritual" as compared to other youths. Yes it was an ego driven thing as well. The only other younger person we were aware of in our area that got baptised was one of the Anointed ( my parents knew ) at the age of 9 years.
Being so young put us in a "class of our own" as I did not connect with many youths in the congregation ( as I was a socially dysfunctional introverted young male ) as they're were deemed as "worldly" ( more extrovert than me and just open to having a good time with their friends ) when they failed to get baptised until their late teens. We called these young congregation "hoons" - "seat warmers" - as they attended meetings and did nothing more.
For the ultra spiritual - a bigger report card, meant you were more spiritually driven than the rest, hence more devoted to serving Jehovah.
Mind you, I do not see it the same way today, but back in the 70's its was very ego driven, in our congregation. We use to gloat that our family were part of the first 1.5 - 2 million baptised witnesses in the truth. Part of the PRE-1975 Elect !
Of course you wern't a true JW until you were baptised and publishing with a monthly report slip. I'd been publishing since I was 6 yo doing 2 & 3 scripture sermons on the Sunday door step. Most Jw's today can't even do a proper magazine presentation let alone a multi scripture sermon.
So in answer to your question - I got baptised as a young teen ( the age of understanding at that time and a generation of almost 60 years from 1914 ) because of the fear of death. So the driving force was not love but - FEAR - or - False Evidence Appearing Real.
What better way to come into a relationship with a "loving" almighty God, than through the deep fear of death, so you could save your hide at Armageddon.
There were many others in my own and nearby congregations getting baptised at the same time obviously for the same reasons - Peer pressure from parents, manipulative guilt from Elders and fear of death by God; with no hope of ever getting a resurrection if you die at Armageddon - eternal Gehenna for the goat-like non-baptised witness.
Danny haszard
I was baptized at age 11 year 1967 as a direct prompting of the Watchtower's 1975 apocalyptic prediction .I was forced by my Jehovah's Witnesses parents so that I would be 'sanctified' when Armageddon came in 1975.-Danny Haszard Bangor Maine
Hobgoblin238
I believed it all. That is why I got baptized...I embraced it.
Teeny
So you're the one!
smmcroberts
I got baptized at 18 years of age in 1974. I agree that 16 is too young, but you don't suddenly become an adult when you turn 18 either.
I wasn't born into it; I was a convert due to my gullibility at an age when I thought I knew more than those who were warning me against the cult.
The "Truth book" had a good trick in it: a sample prayer of dedication. Reading along, I realized I had just "prayed" that prayer in my mind. Since the book warned that one didn't dare go back on one's word to "Jehovah". I considered myself "dedicated" from that point on, and figured I needed to get baptized to make "the public declaration" as soon as possible.
I had been baptized as an infant into the Catholic church, and "confirmed" it while still a young child (and still, obviously, not knowing any better.) When I became a Witness I tore up my baptismal certificate and wrote the church a letter of disassociation (stating that I had now found "the true religion.") I didn't realize that I was still too inexperienced to make an informed judgment and commit to a life path.
I learned some hard lessons as a Witness, which found me burning my "no blood" baptism card about four years later.
I'm just glad that it taught me not to be so gullible.
Maria D.
I agree. 18 is too young as well. I knew absolutely nothing about life at 18. I think they should outlaw baptism until 30. But then again, they wouldn't be able to hook in so many followers with fear if they did that.
Merri-Ella
Ha! A cousin of mine, who was never very strong, and has since been declared by the JW's as "bad association", told me that he was waiting to be 30 to be baptized, b/c that's what Jesus did.
Pink sapphire
11 may 1995. Amanzimtoti, South Africa.
I stood up in front of the circuit in a new white and red outfit one of the regular pioneers had helped me make (she is not in now either). I knew that I was going to be a disappointment to my mum and elders and others in the congregation and I was going to do something to get disfellowshipped. I could feel it inside of me.
However I was caught in a process I simply couldn't get out of. Everyone expected this of me, not peers but adults so i suppose the pressure is greater. Baptism into a cult. The tease was to serve at Bethel, pioneer, marry a nice man, live forever. None of this ever materialised. This is the biggest dupe ever.. If I knew then what I know now, I would have done anything possible to resist it. Sometimes your gut instinct is correct, even as a child. I will always trust it.
Sally
I got baptized in January of 1974 because my parents were frantic about the nearness of Armageddon (could be any time now - it might not wait for 1975 to roll around) and the fact that they considered my brother and me (ages 12 and 14 respectively) to be of "the age of reason" and therefore slated for destruction unless we got baptized. There were 119 baptized on that day at a circuit assembly in rural Maine, most of them children of frantic parents.
Teeny
And yet the Watchtower denies it's stir-crazy attitude towards the run in to 1975.
Btw, I plan on retiring to Maine as I think it's the prettiest place on earth :-)
Flo
I have not been baptized yet, and the likelihood that my mother will downright force me to is very low. A sister who I studied with when I was 12 (shamelessly) bribed me,but I was already skeptical by then so I had the wherewithal to stand up to her. Her daughter,on the other hand,did get baptized. She was my age,and was also at my level of conviction. She doesn't go to our hall anymore,but I have a feeling I'll hear wind of her being DF'ed once of these days. Every time I hear about one of the youngins are our Kingdom Hall being baptized I get a little sick.
sharon
You poor thing, I know a girl who was bapitized at 6 I felt horror at this. How could she know what decisions she was going to make as a teen? By the time she was 18 she was df'd. She went back I'm sad to say...and they say things about the churches baptizing infants! In the eyes of Caesar's law, children are infants until the age of 18 when they are deemed an adult. It is sickening that they are getting away with this...one day soon however, it will all stop. When they are wholly revealed by God.
sharon
I got baptized in '74 the year before Armageddon. I had to get baptized I had a newborn and I wanted her to be saved. I have no other reason for getting dunked. I hated field service, hated ministry school...just hated it. But to save my child I would get dunked. By the way, I was one of those bad girls your mother warned you about. I was hooked on kissing, nothing else. I was 18 at the time. The original pregnant at 16 gal. It was the worst decision I ever made. Today, I would like to peel my skin off to take away that demonic episode in my life. I realize I have to get baptized in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit to wash any remnants of the organization off to save my soul from Satan's clutches. I plan on doing that as soon as I move to GA from DE.
Nico
Hi Sharon, I was "baptized" at 14 & it amazes me you know you need to be baptized correctly in the Father Son & Holy Spirit! It just never occurred to me even as an adult. On some level I knew I hadn't meant it & really I had just been love bombed by a "cooler" mid 20's couple. I didn't realize they used me for service hours until after I passed the test. She never picked me up from school in her cool car again. Naturally I didn't know the term "Love Bomb" until much later but that's exactly what it was & then it was too late. In between I cried a lot & started smoking.
I was converting at 27 years old when I learned that didn't count in the 1st place. Took a bit to absorb it bit iIt was such a relief. Not only had I avoided being struck by lightening at 14, or being called out for smelling like Camels, but I had another fresh start ahead of me in a church I really love.
My baptism, 14 years & one day later, was a lovely peaceful experience. Small ceremony in a beautiful Orthodox church, white robe & simple gold cross, with just my Godparent's family & husband. We were 7 months pregnant & the baby bounced & felt to spin like he knew something exciting was going on. My Godmother had a very difficult time keeping a straight face. It felt real & devine.
I pray you (everyone not just Sharon) have a find that kind of experience. Not exactly that one obviously (lol) but find the joy & peace of it and my life ever since is what we all deserve. A wonderful life of fulfillment (many kinds heehee), higher education, & holidays that was usurped too long by oppression, control, meaningless busywork, & constant fear of judgement .
Teeny
I've wanted to interview brothers and sisters involved in the run in to 75. I find it amazing that there are Jehovah's Witnesses that think the entire 1975 fiasco is a conspiracy theory started by apostates!
dave
I was there in `75 .... 15 at the time. Traptized two years later and it took me another 8 years after that to leave. It took another 27 years though to rid myself of the brainwashing but today im a free man. Oh and why did i get baptized?? .... `cause all the BEST looking girls were already baptized and wouldnt talk to you unless you were also ........
sharon
If they were at that assembly they wouldn't. I heard it from the top as well as thousands of other jw's when it was going to happen on Sept5,1975 at sundown. I was petrified. When it didn't happen, they came along with the logic that 1975 was the end of 6,000 years. AND we don't know how long it was before Eve was created. Being young and impressionable, I bought it hook line and sinker. But I was never a good jw, a good Christian yes, but not a good jw. If you know what I mean.
niki pacheco
Same as you I was 17...I suffered from anxiety after and feeling guilty all the time.
Niki
Teeny
I felt guilty right after my baptism, but wore off after a while. As time went on and I realised things weren't as advertised, I couldn't care less to be honest.
Where did you get baptised?











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Maria D.
I have always found it quite ridiculous that they expect you to NEVER have sex... but also outlaw masturbation. Seriously? I actually told one of the "brothers" this, "If you don't want me to have sex with anyone... I am DEFINITELY going to have sex with myself." Needless to say, at that point, I couldn't care less what they did to me. I remained a virgin until 19... when I finally realized that sex was AMAZING and we wouldn't have this insatiable urge to do it, if it weren't absolutely natural.
The amount of control these people wish to take over others' lives is just absolutely astonishing.
Maria D.
Not to mention when my mom was "cleaning my apartment" while i was out of town, and "happened to find" my vibrator... and then "was moved by the holy spirit" to notify the "older ones in the congregation" of my sin... I hadn't been to a meeting in over 2 years, but got a call from some elder I'd never even met who wanted to schedule a judicial meeting with me. My reply: F*** off.
I had been to a judicial meeting before when I first had sex at 19. The elders were so sick. It was disgusting. They asked all kinds of personal questions... Positions? Heavy petting? Where he put his hands? How did you get started? Did you orgasm? Like wow... Somewhere in the middle of this meeting, I realized something: These "elders" were going to go home and masturbate after I got them riled up with my story. I knew then... I would never set foot in another judicial meeting again. Ever.
Red
Oh trust me Steve all of those biblical examples suddenly become relevant when a sister in the Un-truth contemplates divorcing a cheating or obviously gay brother. Suddenly it's all about forgiving men because it's their sinful nature & you don't want to detract from Jah's Organization because of your hardheartedness. At least that's what was said to my mother, & the mother of one of my friends who's husband was obviously gay, in the late 90's. My friends mother divorced him anyway & was DF'd in favor of finding a fulfilling marriage.
After 17 years of marriage the cheater, dear stepdad, hit his head & died but she made me cancel his e-mail accounts etc because she didn't know how. Oh the dating & porn sites on that computer! I'm sure she thought it was just the 3 ladies from the Pekin Halls (none of whom got DF'd). Would have broken her heart further to know, even after they moved, he was actively soliciting women online up until the very day he hit his head. Or maybe she would feel even stronger & prouder in her martyrdom to the Un-truth. Not sure. Just wanted you to know those tidbits of Biblical info are used when it serves the Elders interests...
Steve
Thanks for sharing that, Red. It doesn't surprise me at all; the Bible has always been used by men to get what they want. That's why they wrote it in the first place: to justify committing genocide on the Canaanites in order to steal their land; and as an excuse for keeping women in subjection [for Eve having supposedly caused all the troubles in the world!]
I'm sorry you and your mother had to suffer the consequences of such idiocy.
kimbal
Interesting read Steve -
From my own first hand experiences I might add from my own studies these few points;
My ex-sister in law is now around 52 years old and was raised in the JWs since 1967.
She has never married and I bet still a virgin ( who secretly masturbates ). She has never left home and lives in the same house with her JW mum, sleeps in the same bedroom today as when I met her sister in 1983. Her sister became my first wife.
She keeps talking about ( on Facebook ) all the brothers she liked who have "conspired to set her up to be single" in the congregation, to never marry her and go for someone else instead. She believes the man should knock on her front door and propose without her having to take any initiative.
I recall being interested in her in 1983 and she was not interested in me, nor my brother who was also keen on her at 20 years of age; and so I dated her sister instead. She knocked back every one who was interested and now at 52yo is complaining "she's been left at the altar" so to speak.
The ongoing secret, but guilt eating, sexual misconduct between her younger sister and I, resulted in us getting married far quicker than we should have, and so I ended up in a 8 year dysfunctional witness marriage as a result. This was until my disfellowshipping in 1989 - which was to do with doctrinal differences of the neo-Babylonian chronology - and not sexual issues..
These witness men who married 20 + years ago that my former sister in law was attracted too, some have even left the organization, or remarried since within.
She comments she is still attracted to these men - as she constantly talks about them on face book, as if she just broke off with them yesterday.
When I saw her last at my daughter's wedding 5 years ago; she looked as if she was pregnant or had a phantom pregnancy. She mentioned she had health problems, but naturally would not discuss them. I can only assume they were health issues common to women.
Bottom line is - she is very screwed up psychologically as a result of never having sex.
Sex is very different, to personal masturbation - as there is a hormone exchange and an endorphins release between the two individuals bonding soul and body - "the two become one flesh" as the bible says in Genesis . The bible also says "it's not good for the man to continue by himself "- so a helper was created for him.
I assume this divine observation applies to a woman as well - since depression and delusional behaviour come into play with some people after long bouts of abstinence. I noted many screwed up sisters in my congregation who were on medication and in some cases flirting with the younger brothers even though they were married and twice their age. I had one reg pioneer sister I know in my own congregation marry an 18 year old when she was in her 40's.
Another sister was in the early 20's and had a baby to an 75 year old brother she married in a nearby congregation, my parents attended.
Dysfunctional relationships seem "acceptable" to some J.WS as they know no different and live in their own little closed off bubble.
Women are often bitchy when they don't get sex and if it goes long enough, they become "man haters" after awhile - especially if bad experiences are involved.
If things get really bad, they favour their own sex and turn gay or favour young children. Like wise the same with males - maybe more so in some cases.
These have been my own observations after being married twice and been involved with about 30 women since I left the organization, as well as attend swingers parties, wife swapped and so forth - to see what the big deal was all about.
At the end of the day - sex is as natural as eating and drinking and sleeping.
It's a bodily function we need to stay in tune with, if we are to stay mentally and emotionally healthy.
I've noted there seems to be a link between paedophilia and strict sexual intolerance, as with the Catholic Church the J.Ws and other Christian groups who practice abstinence in order to be more devout and spiritually focused.
In Satanic and Occult groups, they teach the exact opposite is to encourage sex, not just for personal gratification, but also as a energy to channel to strengthen and improve one's spiritual and magical powers. Sex Magick is a very real practice that works under the right circumstances - and that of course is, another subject for another day..
niki pacheco
Um one more thing with reference to pedophilia. ..I was molested in the kingdom hall when I was 9 in the washroom. ..mom was a new convert..couldn't tell her anything. Finally told her what was going on she went to those awesome shepherds. .they told her to be quiet because it would bring reproach on Jehovah. Seriously? Can you say cover up? Thats reproach!
Niki
Will sue...stay tuned. Re Candace Conti 25 million $ she won.:)
Steve
Niki,
I'm so sorry this happened to you, and so sorry that I was ever a part of an organization that would consider its reputation ahead of protecting a child.
Bravo on your determination to sue! I hope such cases eventually bankrupt them as financially as they are already bankrupt in their hearts and minds.
niki pacheco
Hello what a brilliant read. Thank you. How about sex is essential to our health. That is how we are made after all. How else would we know what pleasures us if we don't touch ourselves. Children do it all the time..its healthy and natural.
NIKI PACHECO
Steve
Thanks, Niki.
And you're so right: in his book "You, Staying Young," Dr. Mehmet Oz recommends that we have at least 100 orgasms a year. (That's roughly twice a week... hmmm, guess I'm overdue.)











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Maria Rodriguez
Well said! I particularly like number Zero: all the times that they’ve been right. This is a real fact.
I just cannot believe after the new light on the generation 1914 JW are still going to the kingdom hall. Now with 2014 right around the corner i think it's time for another new light: Jesus did not become king in 1914 peharps he just becomes king in 2013. So wait for another century to see the end of the world.
Don K
Personally speaking , this stopped being the "truth" for me when they came out with the 1914 Generation Revision. I spent countless Saturdays peddling magazines and books, spreading the Watchtower society 'truth', "the generation that saw 1914 would by no means pass away until all these things occur." "Be a witness or die" was the message pounded into us every week which we in turn spent our own time and money preaching. Then one fine day the WT tells us, "uhhhhh, never mind, we are hitting the 'new light' reset button - do over time". New Light - what a cop-out . "New Light" should only expound on an established theory, not completely wipeout the previous theory and replace it.
Like George Bush said, " There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." You know what I mean.
eviebklyn
I did read that book on my Kindle,interesting and well written1

















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Stephanie H
This was great.... It reminds me of a lot of the fallacious "principles" and made-for-fables ideas that are consistently believed and forced upon followers. Especially in religious cults such as Jehovah's Witnesses. I, for one, do NOT believe this story actually happened. As a matter of fact, I believe the Bible isn't much more than a good "story".
Your post was very informative, even to a girl who already thinks she knows it all. :-)
Anon
It has been my experience that we are a very diverse lot... Ex-JW's go from Atheists to Agnostics to (Apparently quite a few) going to another religion.
I find it ridiculously hard to even try and understand viewpoints in the Bible... Depending on who you ask there are many interpretations, and apparently their viewpoints seem equally valid...
I have found that to convince a JW the most "street cred" goes to the one who can Biblically prove them wrong... Oh and place the burden of proof mainly on them...
smmcroberts
Hi Anon,
Good points. But, as you say, there are many interpretations that seem equally valid: so it's very difficult to prove someone "biblically wrong." Heck, lots of ministers tried that with me when I was a JW. At most it made me confused and angry, but in the end I just chalked it off to poor understanding on my part.
But when I saw my first undeniable contradiction in the Bible it blew me away. That's when I started to really think about stories like the above, as well as: Jephthah's sacrificing his daughter to Jehovah; the "angel of the Lord" killing the firstborn of Egypt; God helping his "chosen people" slaughter the Canaanites and steal their land; and God's enjoying the smell of "sacrificed" animals. When I compared such stories to biblical sentiments such as: "God is love;" "turning the other cheek;" "caring for every sparrow," etc., I came to see the MORAL contradictions in this supposed "guide-book for our lives."
So I sat down and read the Bible again for myself with an open mind. To me the results were unambiguous: http://smmcroberts.net/religio...
In my experience, arguing Scriptures with Witnesses [or members of any
other cult] is futile. But, of course, any approach that works is fine by me.
Anon
Hi Steve, I already like reading the Skeptic's Annotated Bible... It's really hard coming out of JW's and to try to convince people that they are believing in those 5 levels of things, like you said. I personally believe that there is a God or some Higher Power, and currently I DOUBT that the Bible is the actual Word of God... Too many contradictions, too many people trying to change what it probably originally said... It's hard to become a total skeptic because you have believed in so much... BTW, you have taken the hardest approach (killing all belief in God and/or the Bible) to covincing people.









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Stephanie H
I'm tempted to go to the convention here (no one knows me) and attempt an infiltration. You know, apostasize, and try to get a few to leave. But honestly, I don't think I could sit through enough of it without vomiting. It would certainly give me away.
What I find the most interesting is, I was raised in this organization... and went to these ridiculous conventions every year for my entire life. And even now, the program's talks are almost exactly the same. Repetition is at the heart of cult control. These people don't even realize they are being fed the exact same "spiritual food" that they get every single day, every single month, and every single year. It's starting to mold. C'mon folks!
Mike Hegyi
That brought back some horrible memories of the Silverdome in MI. Especially when I read the entry about the music starting, and that horrible feeling it brings because it means the break is almost over.
Sally
Love the pickup lines!
Frank
Fortunately for me, I am nowhere near where their yearly district convention would be. In my area, their district conventions would be in Rochester, NY and that is miles away from where I live. I am also glad that I am not going. I haven't been to any district convention since 1993, which was the only one that I went to during my brief two years in that terrible and destructive cult.
Will it be this coming Friday? I will be having plans that weekend, with going to church on Sunday and having Holy Communion with my fellow worshipers as one of them.
William, I have rejected the society and the JW's, but not Heavenly Father God, nor his son Jesus Christ. Again, I apologize in advance if I offend anyone on this blog for sharing my beliefs. If I do, again, I apologize. Thanks William.
William
God's written Word is Truth and so is His Living Word, the Lord Jesus Christ. The problem is that JWs lack the Holy Spirit (personal, not impersonal force) and Truth (Jesus as YHWH, not Michael). God and His Word are not boring, but cults who mistranslate it (NWT) and reject sound doctrine are dead, dying, and boring. It is a shame that sincere people actually think this is real Christianity. Reject the WT, but don't reject the Almighty (they are not the same thing).
Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten
Thanks for the comment William, but I do have to ask, how do you know the Bible is God's written word?
If you have some sort of evidence that actually points to this, by all means, bring it forward, for you'll certainly be nominated for a Nobel Prize.
William
Christian apologetics has a wealth of information supporting the Bible as the Word of God. It must be correctly translated and interpreted though. It can also be shown that The Koran, The Book of Mormon, WT literature, etc. is not inspired. Faith is presumption if it is not evidence based. Do you even believe in God? If not, belief in the Bible will be rejected. This covers the historicity, canonicity, transmission, inspiration, etc. of Scripture. I cannot convince you in a post: http://www.amazon.com/General-...
Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten
Thanks, but I'd like to hear what proof you personally have.
William
Archaeology, prophecy, unity, Jesus considered the Old Testament the Word of God, etc. etc. If you are serious, you would study the evidence and not take my word. Do you believe in God?
Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten
Of course not. All evidence points to the God of the bible being a fallacy.
What archaeology points to the bible being God's word?
William
You should be dealing with the evidences of God first instead of the Bible. Most secular archaeologists do not dispute the many finds that confirm the historicity of Scripture. Not everything is discovered, but nothing has disproven it. The info is out there with a google search. I don't think the forum will appreciate my preaching. I have done my homework. If you are serious, do yours. if not, don't waste my time.
Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten
I have done my homework. Thirty years of it actually.
Thing is, you started off by stating, and I quote "God's written Word is Truth and so is His Living Word, the Lord Jesus Christ."
So my original question still stands.
If we were to start off at the beginning of God's word, Genesis, we know that to be scientifically bogus. We can then move onto the Hebrews exodus from Egypt, which too has been discounted as nothing more than myth.
So again I ask, how do you know God's word is truth? Seeing that his only apparent manual is nothing more than a poorly written assortment of books, where should I start my research?
I am sorry if I sound patronising, I don't wish to, it's just that I rarely have these conversations any more and I would like to know what drives your logic.
William
The WT, if that is your background, is a poor source for biblical scholarship. They have shoddy, pseudo-scholarship. Perhaps you have not been exposed to the best arguments and evidence. www.icr.org Genesis and Exodus are not myth. They are not inconsistent with good science. You make assertions that display arrogant ignorance and beg the question. Your mind seems to be made up so why confuse you with the facts? Can I really convince you of stuff that books have been written about in a post?
Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten
William, I just went to the ICR website you added to your comments and found this:
Although there are some people who profess to be atheists, the Bible indicates that there is no such thing. Everyone knows that God exists, even though some may verbally deny it (even to themselves). Romans 1:18-21 teaches that God has made evidence of His existence so abundantly obvious to all mankind that there is no excuse for denying Him. It’s no surprise then that there are many lines of evidence that confirm this biblical truth. - http://www.icr.org/God/
If this is the level of your research, we'd better stop our little parade, no matter how fun it is, because this my friend, is as ridiculous as the bible itself. In fact more so, which I never thought possible.
:-)
Stephanie H
Your last paragraph... Priceless!!! Lol!
Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten
Thanks Stephanie.
William inspired me to write a blog post:
http://www.jehovahswitnessblog...
Enjoy!
Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten
When I left the Witnesses, I looked at all the evidence. For instance, world renowned archaeologist, Professor Israel Finkelstein has proven without doubt that the Exodus from Egypt never happened.
Countless scientists have irrefutable evidence pointing to the fact that no global flood took place. Human beings were not manufactured from dust and women, no matter how much we would like it to be true, were formed from the rib of Adam.
Now, science has played its part here. Any science you bring me that disclaims what I have said is not science; it simply can't be.
I am neither ignorant nor arrogant. All I asked is why you made your statement. However, I still haven't received an answer.
We can discuss this over email if you like as I wouldn't want to bore our readers with our observations.
Were you a Jehovah's Witness once?
William
I have never been a JW.
justme
Jaymes.. what are the 4 main element of human life??... Isn't Nitrogen, Hydorgen, Carbon and Oxygen.. How was life created..? The bible describes how the earth was created in the order which is needed to create gas, water, oxygen and prepare human life. the bible is scientifically accurate. My major is biology and microbiology.. with that said, the more I learn about science the more evidence I find that there is a creator and when reading the bible I realized that it must have been inspired by a greater force. You should try reading it once in a while.. and enjoy life please.. enough of your bitterness..
Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten
Your major was in Biology and Microbiology and you just spouted that almighty BS?
You're either:
1. A Liar
2. Lying
3. Not telling the truth
I'm betting it's option 1.
Steve
justme,
The Bible never mentions Nitrogen, Hydrogen, Carbon or Oxygen. So what relevance is there to listing them in your comment about the Bible supposedly being scientifically accurate?
The Bible describes TWO orders of creation, which one are you claiming is correct? And what school are you attending that teaches that life evolved within the past 6,000 years in accordance with the Bible?!
Try applying the scientific method to the question of whether the Bible is accurate and you'll come to a very different conclusion than the one you have stated:
http://smmcroberts.net/religio...
justme
why are you guys so worried about what the witnesses do or not?... If you were a 'bliever" at some poin in life and you did not like something or did not agree with something then MOVE ON and live your life in peace!! too much negativity will make you sick.. I feel bad for all of you guys who hold on all these bitternerss. Life is short enjoy it.! We are all free to do whatever we wish to do and we are all entitle to our own opinion.. so if the witnesses wish to live life a certain way let them be.. and you live the way you want to live..!!! your efforts are worthless and do not harm the witnesses you only harm yourself and your health..!
Steve
There are lots of reasons, justme, for not simply walking away without trying to help those we have left behind.
Witness beliefs result in the deaths of their children, as well as creating an environment which protects child-molesters. Given their extreme proselytizing efforts, children you know could be forced to join them via their parents' gullibility.
It's not a simple matter of "live and let live;" with the Witnesses it is "live and let die."
Their shunning policy leads to broken families and a high rate of suicide.
Their discouraging of education leads to a lot of uneducated people in a world that desperately calls for intelligence.
I agree that people should be free and that they are entitled to their own opinion. But Witnesses are not free, and they don't have their own opinion. They are not allowed to engage in such "independent thinking." They can only do what the Watchtower tells them to do, and their opinion is just whatever the Watchtower is currently printing.
Having been in as well as out of their organization, we know that a happier, more fulfilling life can be had outside of the constraints of a mind-controlling cult. We do move on with our lives, but at the same time we extend a hand back to those who continue to live their lives in the painful delusion we were once trapped in.
Online articles such as these are not worthless; they HAVE prevented people from joining this cult, and have helped them rejoin reality. They aren't born from bitterness or negativity; they are born from love.
Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten
I see the money spent on putting you through university was well spent...
If you had actually ever walked through "higher educations doors", critical thinking wouldn't have been so evidently lacking. Neither would your use of grammar.
Guest
Well I see no one else Is responding to you foolish blog so I am going to end it. You not hurting my feelings as you are using that as a excuse! What characteristics identify apostates as distinct from true Christians?
An apostasy among professed Christians was foretold by the apostle Paul at 2 Thessalonians 2:3. He specifically mentioned certain apostates, such as Hymenaeus, Alexander, and Philetus. (1Ti 1:19, 20; 2Ti 2:16-19) Among the varied causes of apostasy set forth in apostolic warnings were: lack of faith (Heb 3:12), lack of endurance in the face of persecution (Heb 10:32-39), abandonment of right moral standards (2Pe 2:15-22), the heeding of the “counterfeit words” of false teachers and “misleading inspired utterances” (2Pe 2:1-3; 1Ti 4:1-3; 2Ti 2:16-19; compare Pr 11:9), and trying “to be declared righteous by means of law” (Ga 5:2-4). While still making profession of faith in God’s Word, apostates may forsake his service by treating lightly the preaching and teaching work that he assigned to followers of Jesus Christ. (Lu 6:46; Mt 24:14; 28:19, 20) They may also claim to serve God but reject his representatives, his visible organization, and then turn to ‘beating’ their former associates to hinder their work. (Jude 8, 11; Nu 16:19-21; Mt 24:45-51) Apostates often seek to make others their followers. (Ac 20:30; 2Pe 2:1, 3) Such ones willfully abandoning the Christian congregation thereby become part of the “antichrist.” (1Jo 2:18, 19) As with the apostate Israelites, destruction is likewise foretold for apostates from the Christian congregation.—2Pe 2:1; Heb 6:4-8; see ASSOCIATION.
Guest
Finally is answer No God he say well if you or I continue to listen or follow him! You be has bitter as him! If you don't have faith and hope in God and his son what do you have! You can see whatever bad happen to him it consume him to not believe in God! Because God didn't reach out and help him in his time of need! We all go through things just keep having faith in God and throw your burdens upon him and not man like this guy! You can see his problem is really against his demons and his god he satan that he is following because of his hateful speech! Once again you have a Error code coming your way! Jehovah loves you and can turn back anytime but it seem your God is satan!! This really goodbye!!
smmcroberts
Thanks, Tasha (aka "Guest") for confirming everything I said about the "bait and switch" method of Jehovah's Witnesses. You have yet to answer the simple question I posed at the start of our discussion: "what lie did I tell?" Instead you turned it into a further personal attack against me.
The things you say about me above you couldn't possibly know (they also happen to be wrong, but that's beside the point.) The point is: the Watchtower puts people into categories: Sheep, Goats, Anointed, Apostates. Then they tell you that everyone in that group is a certain way (e.g. apostates are "unrighteous liars".) But your inability to point out any lies I've told has put the lie to the Watchtower's categorizing.
People who reject Watchtower policies because they can't sit back and watch children die for lack of medical care (formerly vaccinations and organ transplants, today blood transfusions), or because they can't abide child molesters in their midst, or because they can't shun their own family members -- these people (whom you call "apostates") are taking a moral stand, often at great personal cost. To call them "unrighteous" for taking this stand is about as far from the truth as one can get.
I have told you that I'm not bitter, and you haven't pointed out any evidence of bitterness on my part. Did I call you a fool? Did I accuse you of "following Satan," being "unrighteous" and "lawless"? No, I did not. These are all insults you have hurled at me. So, who is the one engaging in "hateful speech?" Who is showing signs of bitterness here?
It's all right, Tasha; I forgive you. I know you can't help it, and there's probably a real caring human being underneath the "Jehovah's Witness" role your masters force you to assume. I hope some day you'll look into your heart and find there's not enough hate there to keep you in this nightmare religion you are currently stuck in.
Guest
Error You have been block by true Jehovah Witness. You know Jehovah laws live by them or not! Satan is over this wicked world be upset with him. You will get a Error every time you reply! You have to much time on your hands and clearly you are not going to win! An here's a thought would it be something you going against Jehovah God and his day come like a thief in the night and you get destroyed man on man you are a fool! Follow the Bible and stop trying to win a battle you can't win!!!!
smmcroberts
Now that Tasha is gone--evidently hiding from the truth by blocking the reply notices from JWB in her email--I can speak my mind about my exchange with her without being concerned about hurting her feelings.
Her fundamental error is assuming "we know Jehovah's laws," when in fact all we know is what men have claimed are his laws: men who know no more about the "supernatural" than you or I do. But, if I were to "live by them" then I would have to steer clear of false prophets, as the Bible says. This, of course would include the most notorious false prophet of them all: the Watchtower.
Her other basic error is to blame Satan and Adam and Eve for the woes caused by Watchtower policies!
I knew that Tasha was too far gone (at present at least) to be reached with the truth about "the truth," but I continued the conversation for as long as she would reply, in order to maybe plant a seed or two, and to make several important points, not the least of which was to highlight the double-standards on display (even in her last reply she states that I have too much time on my hands, whereas I probably spend less time responding to her than she spends in "field service," and Witnesses believe that there's no such thing as spending too much time disseminating the truth. ) She just wanted to "hit and run," and naturally got annoyed with me when I called her on her unsubstantiated accusation.
The thread of our conversation also shows an effective way to force the issue with a Witness: don't back down on an embarrassing question you ask them (e.g. "what lie did I tell?") until they either answer it or refuse to discuss it any further. Don't let them evade the questions you ask by trying to turn it into a discussion about YOU and YOUR beliefs; that's the oldest trick in the book, and Witnesses are quick to latch onto it so they can find something to accuse you of (e.g. "serving Satan") turning the focus away from your question when they know they don't have a good answer.
BTW: If anyone cares: the answer to Tasha's question is: I don't serve any god.
Guest
It is evident that there is a distinction between a ‘falling’ due to weakness and the ‘falling away’ that constitutes apostasy. The latter implies a definite and willful withdrawal from the path of righteousness. (1Jo 3:4-8; 5:16, 17) Whatever its apparent basis, whether intellectual, moral, or spiritual, it constitutes a rebellion against God and a rejection of his Word of truth.—2Th 2:3, 4; see MAN OF LAWLESSNESS.
smmcroberts
Disagreeing with policies that harm and kill children is a "willful withdrawal from the path of righteousness." So speaks the Watchtower, and its parrots, but not anyone retaining the ability to think.
Guest
Look you have not answer my question. What god do you serve ? You sound like Atheist! So if you have God that can stop this pain that we go through and witness and see everyday so please do sure.We go door to door to give Jehovah word you can have hope and faith or chose to not. You all the answer to your own question about Jehovah and his people. So if you feel your words are right and we are wrong well contiune fighting for what you believe in and we will contuine doing the same. No I wouldn't look in a kids eyes and say that. That's way you should had faith in Jehovah. People all the world suffer everyday .
smmcroberts
Tasha,
I reread all of your comments, and you never before asked me "what god do you serve?". I'd be happy to discuss my beliefs with you as soon as we finish the current discussion: You accused me of having a "false tongue" and "trying to mislead people." I've repeatedly asked you to tell me what you think I lied about. You have yet to answer me. If you have no answer, then your calling me a liar is itself a lie, and common human courtesy says that you owe me an apology and a retraction of your libel against me. Once this is settled I'd be happy to continue the conversation and answer any questions you want to ask.
If you couldn't say that to an abused child (that their suffering is irrelevant because your god has to prove "Satan" a liar), then why do you claim to believe it? Your statement is a good synopsis of the core Watchtower belief: suffering exists because god is proving Satan is a liar. Could it be--as in this instance--that if you looked deeply into your heart you'd find that you couldn't follow where Watchtower beliefs lead when you really think about them?
As for people suffering in the world everyday: yes, that's a fact. But the Watchtower policies contribute to that suffering, and that's just wrong, and that's why ethical people who know the truth about them leave.
Guest
I see you can't answer about your god you serve you go back and forward ! Your fight is with Jehovah you feel Jehovah is wrong for letting young ones and all of us suffer. Well then ask your god to step in and stop this wickedness that Jehovah and the Watchtowers we are printing that is so wrong that's causing the suffer! You seem to need the last words and fight or battle against us so with that said move on and don't let something you control consume you! An I am very clear on what god you serve Good Bye!!
smmcroberts
Tasha,
I'm very able to answer your question about what god I serve, but I'm not stupid enough to fall for the common Jehovah's Witness tactic of changing the subject rather than answering a direct question posed to them.
Let's quickly review our discussion:
1. You said I was a liar.
2. I politely asked you to tell me what I lied about so I could apologize and retract the statement.
3. Rather than answer me, you tried to change the subject: asking me what god I served.
4. I politely told you that I would be happy to answer your question once we had settled the topic currently under discussion: the accusation of lying.
5. Instead of answering, you now make additional personal attacks to the effect:
5a. That I can't answer your question [that's ironic!]
5b. That I go "back and forward" [I'm not sure what this means.]
5c. Somehow the "wickedness" printed by the Watchtower is MY fault because I don't ask "my god" to step in and correct it!
Give me a moment to bite my tongue, hold my breath, and count to ten (or maybe a hundred-and-ten)...
Okay, first of all, thank you for putting on display the typical JW modus operandi for all the world to see. For more ways to avoid thinking, please see: http://www.jehovahswitnessblog...
Secondly, all I want to say as a "last word" to you, dear Tasha, is that I write the truth out of love for my former brothers and sisters, such as you. I know that you've been indoctrinated by the Watchtower to believe that apostates are all liars. But, here in our discussion, where you've had ample opportunity to point out an apostate's lies, you have been unable to do so.
I hope you, and others reading this, will get the point: Blindly parroting what the Watchtower says can get you into trouble (such as being sued for libel), because the Watchtower is notorious for lying. You think: "Okay, the Watchtower said apostates are all liars, and since I trust the Watchtower implicitly I can just go ahead and call one of them a liar without ever having heard them utter a single lie." But, as it turns out, and as I've tried to show you: the Watchtower is wrong when they claim that all apostates are liars. This shows that you can't trust the Watchtower and live your life based on what they tell you.
Why do you think they warn you not to read anything their critics say, and train you to develop a reflex-action of plugging your ears and hollering: "Liars!" whenever you come across an apostate? Don't you know that this is a tactic used by all mind-controlling cults?
The Watchtower tells non-Witnesses to carefully examine both sides of their religion, but can't stand for anyone to examine the Watchtower religion. The reason for this double-standard is that as soon as you do examine the Watchtower religion you plainly see that it is built upon layers of error, mistakes, stupidity, deception, and downright falsehoods. An organization with nothing to hide doesn't try to prevent its followers from hearing what its critics have to say.
Don't you know that even your reading this blog, and adding your comments to it is explicitly FORBIDDEN by the Watchtower? You must agree that they have gone too far with their control of your life since you are exercising your human right to read and write whatever you like. Good for you, Tasha: you've taken the first steps towards freedom!
Please see my latest blog on this very subject; I think you'll find it very helpful in defending yourself if the elders happen to catch you here breaking the Watchtower rules: http://www.jehovahswitnessblog...
My best to you, Tasha. I hope you continue to try to think for yourself.
Guest
Really I been answering your question you know the answers because you was once a witness. So id you chose to serve another god or no god because what you went through its between you and Jehovah. You can keep blaming and move on or forgive. I been done that road I don't blame Jehoavh I blame Satan and Adam and Eve! They made bad chooses so now we have to wait till Jehovah step in like it or not!
smmcroberts
Tasha,
Really? You answered my questions? I'm sorry, I guess I missed where you answered my question as to what lie I told. Please tell me again. I also missed how you answered the question as to how you could look a child in the eyes and tell them that their suffering is irrelevant because your god has to prove his nemesis a liar. Please remind me of your answers, thanks!
My moving on (which I have done in my private life, thank you) and my forgiveness of individuals (which I have also done) have absolutely nothing to do with the ongoing suffering and death caused by the policies of the Watchtower. I will continue to fight for its victims until those policies are changed or until every Witness comes to their senses and escapes the clutches of their captors.
My weapon will simply be the truth. Which is why it's so important that you let me know where you think I have lied. I never want to lie. I am ready to apologize and retract any lie you can prove. I left the Watchtower organization because I wanted to remain loyal to the truth. I feel that I have done so ever since.
Guest
Well if the brothers stood by when this happen to this child! It may not get fix when you want it. But in Jehovah do time Vengenece is his!
smmcroberts
Tasha,
It was not only the brothers who stood by when this happened, your Jehovah stood by as well. He did nothing then, so chances are very good that he won't suddenly turn into a caring god in the future and start wreaking vengeance on elders and ministerial servants who are child molesters.
But even if he does, Jehovah's vengeance won't do a damn thing for a molested child. It wont undo the damage that has been done. Nothing ever could. Jehovah's vengeance is worthless because it does not "fix" anything for the children who are victims of sexual abuse.
Watch for more on this subject in an upcoming blog entitled "Will Jehovah Make it Right?". Right here, on your favorite apostate site!
Guest
"( well I really don't know what to say! But my heart goes out to you and the child that was hurt. If Jehovah reach out to everyone on earth that was in pain he couldn't prove Satan a lier and you have to have faith he promise that these things want take place anymore. But if you chose to go against him you want win! But you know all this already there nothing I could say from this point on but Jehovah love all and all our lives are trails! So you do what you feel is best! Good bye I hope you don't stay gone to long!
smmcroberts
Tasha,
I appreciate the sentiment, and the attempt to make peace and end on a friendly note. But I will NEVER go back to that organization. I feel too strongly that protecting children is way more important than proving "Satan" is a liar. So, to me, the god you worship has skewed priorities, as does his "earthly organization."
To be a member of that organization again I would have to be able to look into a child's eyes and say, "Your suffering is irrelevant because my god has to prove his nemesis a liar."
I could never do that. To me it sounds like something an insane person would say. Are you sure that YOU could look into a child's eyes and say that? Honestly?
Guest
Will it hurt you to have faith like Job..But once again we witness stand by Bible truth to help us or those who want a clean moral life. Who are we or you to Judge...We will leave bad thoughts and hateful speech with Jehovah. He's the one thats a reader of hearts!

smmcroberts
Well, Job certainly was hurt: not by his faith but by Jehovah allowing Satan to do his worst by killing his family.
"Bible truth" does not lead to a "clean moral life" in the case of shunning, failing to protect children from sexual predators, and denying them life-saving medical care. Those are immoral actions caused by your belief in the Bible and your "Faithful & Discreet" leaders' interpretation of it. I am fully prepared (and duty-bound) to judge such actions as immoral, just as you, by implication, have judged people who don't follow your "Bible truth" as unclean and immoral.
Despite your claim, as a Jehovah's Witness you don't really "leave bad thoughts and hateful speech with Jehovah;" your leaders dispense it in spades: calling their critics "mentally diseased" (Study Edition of the Watchtower, July 15th 2011, paragraph 6) and telling you to "loathe, hate, and despise" them, as shown in these quotes from the Watchtower:
"The obligation to hate lawlessness also applies to all activity by apostates. Our attitude toward apostates should be that of David, who declared: 'Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah, and do I not feel a loathing for those revolting against you? With a complete hatred I do hate them. They have become to me real enemies.'"
--The Watchtower, July 15, 1992, page 12
"You have seen the benefit of godly love, but do you know how to hate?
…These very strong words are an expression of godly hate, and you too
must have this quality to be pleasing to God. Hate causes a feeling of
disgust to well up inside you. You loathe, abhor, despise the object of
your hatred."
--The Watchtower 7/15/1974 p.442:
So, if you're a good Jehovah's Witness--sworn to obey whatever the Watchtower tells you to do--what does your Jehovah read in your heart towards apostates? Or towards those whom you call "goats" for having the good sense to reject your message from the get-go?
In contrast, sites such as this are setup by your former brothers and sisters who are trying to reach out to you in love to save you from a life of futile slavery to a bunch of deluded old men who have proven themselves to be false prophets several times over.
I hope you come to see these obvious facts, Tasha, and join us in the real world soon. We need loving people like you out here: people who WANT to lead a moral life, but are being misled into an immoral life of hatred by the Watchtower.
Guest
Well take it up with Jehovah! I be a fool to join you! I be as good as dead along with you and Satan and his followers! If I go against Jehovah Laws and not mans! You seem to be bright and as Jesus says in the last days people like you will try to mislead many! An the Bible speaks of the stupid ones and there false tongue! So if you was a brother or sister something went wrong with you! We all are imperfect and we have the choice to do bad or good! Don't blame the brothers or Jehovah people blame yourself for turning away!
smmcroberts
Tasha, how do I "take it up with Jehovah," exactly?
When you point out the flaws in other religions as you go door-to-door, what if a householder dismissed your arguments with "Take it up with Jehovah!"? Would you consider that a valid, sensible response?
If you believe that there are people misleading others (a point upon which I agree) then you should be wary of accepting what ANYONE tells you without question. You should always consider both sides of an issue, Otherwise you may indeed be misled. We encourage that, while the Watchtower forbids it. Ask yourself: What have they got to hide?
You fear going against Jehovah's laws, but it has only been MEN who have told you what these laws are. Men have been known to be wrong. Sadly, the particular men that you are listening to have been proven wrong many times: condemned out of their own mouths, repeatedly, decade after decade, as they continue to use fear to keep their followers from leaving.
Please ask your elders about Jehovah's law against vaccinations and against organ transplants. What? You say that Jehovah has no such laws? No indeed, but the Watchtower had such laws for many years. These are what you would call man's laws, not Jehovah's laws. These men were misleading their followers and costing them their very lives. You talk about being a fool, well with their track record it would be the height of folly to follow them.
Tasha, you needn't live your life in fear. You don't need to be a slave to the whims of these men who only CLAIM to be anointed by God while providing zero evidence. You deserve the freedom that is the right of every human on this planet.
Please tell me what I have written that is false. It is SO easy to accuse people of having a "false tongue." It's quite another thing to show what you base that accusation on. We have provided overwhelming evidence that the Watchtower does indeed have a "false tongue." Where is your evidence that I have spoken a falsehood? Please provide it and I will apologize and retract the statement. Otherwise, it will be you who will be owing me an apology.
But, forget the apology; it's not important. The important thing is to free yourself from this mind-controlling cult and regain your life. Please make that your top priority rather than trying personal attacks against people you don't know; that is the well-worn tactic of people without a leg to stand on, and just makes them appear foolish.
Guest
Don't know what you went through or saw my heart go out to you and you are in my prayers we all are imperfect and make mistake don't let that stop you on having a good life Jehovah don't want to see you unhappy! He will Judge the wicked and good! So with that said I hope you find your way good night!
Guest
We plant the seed and Jehovah make it grow! He's the reader of hearts if you feel the brothers are wrong make it a matter of prayer it's sad what you are going through to speak against Jehovah but they did it in Moses and Jesus time so you know the out come. I will not take that chase on
Speaking against Jehovah. An if you say the words are false then way point so much time in trying to prove it wrong ! You see what happen to Adam and Eve but if you don't believe in that story either don't waste your time trying to right and us wrong!
smmcroberts
Tasha,
You didn't answer a single question I posed. So I guess you're saying you couldn't find anything false that I said. Also, I guess you have no more idea than I do what "taking it to Jehvovah" could possibly mean. I don't think you could possibly mean that I should just stand around and pray to the ancient Israelite's god of war after a child has been molested in a Kingdom Hall and her pleas for help ignored!
I spend time showing the errors of the Watchtower in order to save Jehovah's Witness children from being molested, shunned, and killed by Watchtower policy. No moral person could consider that a "waste of time."
You must overcome your fear of such stories as "Adam and Eve" in order to take a similar moral stand for justice and what is right.
Guest
So sad...those words want roll off your tongue so easily when Jehovah day come!!!










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Stephanie H
"That was a sort of white lie as the first guy managed to live into his thirties – his nine hundred and thirties." Hahahahahahaha best line ever!
The quote from the ICR website is such a demonstrative illustration of circular reasoning, I can barely handle it. I'm surprised you were able to dignify that malarkey enough to respond to it.
Well done, Jaymes! Well done. You really should come back and blog more. It was you who got me hooked on this site in the first place. Not that Steve isn't awesome in his own right. I'm just saying. Glad to read your input. :-)
Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten
Cheque's in the post love :-)
I'll be back more often. Hide your daughters!
Guest
I don't go out of service to change anyone mind. You have the chose like anyone else to shut the door or listen! If you think what we have to say are lies , Jehovah God will deal with those who lie! Stop being so bitter if you are so unhappy with Jehovah Wittness stop wasting your time trying to find us incorrect!
smmcroberts
Tasha,
You say you don't go out in service to change anyone's mind. Well, we both know that's not entirely accurate. The whole point of Theocratic Ministry School is to teach you how to be persuasive and change people's minds about your "truth."
Just as we have the "choice to shut the door or listen" you have the choice to not read these blogs. What's the difference?
Your Watchtower publications have expended tons of ink trying to find
all other religions "incorrect," so it is a double-standard when you
ask us not to do the very same thing with your religion.
What we offer you is called "examining your beliefs" in order to "make sure of all things." Does any of this ring a bell?
I'm not bitter, but I won't stand by and watch gullible people being lied to so that they allow their children to die and be molested and shunned for thinking for themselves.If you want a good example of bitterness, read the Watchtower's description of their critics (aka "apostates") or their description of other religions (such as the "old hag:" the "whore of Babylon." Or just read their gleeful descriptions of how non Witnesses' flesh will rot on their bones as they stand, and the birds will peck out their eyes. View their illustrations of young children falling to their deaths in their depictions of Armageddon. Or of people burning to death right behind the smiling faces of the Witnesses.
Guest
Since you know so much then go with the way you feel. Once again Jehovah knows your heart and the heart of his people. So if there's wrong beening done he will correct it! We live in a world with death befalling us all and bad things happen to good people but I will not blame Jehovah. I once had something bad happen to me I didn't blame Jehovah and the brothers I prayed about it and left it in Jehovah hands cause vengeance is his! It might of took longer then what I thought to be fix but waited and Jehovah came through for me. I had faith in him! The Bible is a guide to live your life by you can accepted or not!!!
Guest
If you feel you are doing the right thing keep doing it! I am not going to keep replying to this foolishness there better things in life instead of downing ones beliefs. I believe in Jehovah and he is real and if you chose to go against him that's all between you and him. You and no one will change my mind. Enjoy your life and stop wasting your time on trying to change others minds because when it comes down to it you not going to win!
smmcroberts
Hi Tasha,
I'm glad to hear you won't be going out in service anymore, then: "not wasting your time trying to change others minds."
John Lockwood
I have had similar discussions with my parents. I ask them to prove any one of their beliefs, without using the literature created by the organization, and even better, without the bible. Because if that is not "the word of god," then anything in it is invalidated, and cannot be used to prove itself as real or accurate. It's no different than a politician saying "trust me."
smmcroberts
It's a great summary of Genesis, Jaymes!
Some other highlights from this fun book:
God destroyed the city Lot was living in (Sodom) due to its wickedness, yet saved Lot (the incestuous coward who offered his daughters to the mob) -- proving that anal sex is more wicked in this homophobic God's eyes than betrayal, incest, rape, and murder combined!
"God's friend" Abraham [who, according to Genesis was Lot's Uncle AND his brother(!)] not only attempted to murder his own son, but he also abandoned his wife to the mercy of Pharaoh and King Abimelech by telling them that she was his sister (a half-truth revealing another case of incest: she was his half-sister.) Abe had sex with his wife's maid (shades of Schwarzenegger) then turned the maid over to his wife's abuse, finally casting her and his bastard son out into the wilderness to die. What a great guy! A real example of righteousness: no wonder he's one of the "men of faith" extolled in Hebrews Chapter 11.
But when it comes to science in Genesis, let's not forget God's anxiety over the men of Babel constructing a tower to reach to his place in the heavens. This was a real worry for God, because back in Genesis heaven was just on the other side of the "firmament:" that inverted bowl not far above the people's heads, with the stars stuck up on its surface, and the Sun traveling around the bowl over the flat disc of the Earth every day. Hey, isn't that just like what we were all taught in astronomy class?
Genesis sure reads like a science textbook to me. {sarcasm}
Let's all try the experiment made famous in that book by Jacob. Take some sticks and peel away part of the bark. Place these spotted sticks in the drinking trough used by some cattle. Watch and see if the cattle, upon drinking the water, conceive spotted calves. According to Genesis(30:37-42), this worked for Jacob, and since science is based on repeatable experiments, it should work for us as well. Unless, of course, Genesis isn't science at all, but rather the superstitious legends of primitive men who relied on sympathetic magic and a belief in spirits as explanations of the world. To me, and anyone able to read the book straight through with an open mind, the conclusion is obvious.










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Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten
Great post Steve.
I've personally experienced each and every one of the "Dirty Dozen" critical thinking lapses. I now suffer them when talking with Witnesses.
I think to myself "was I really that stupid?"
Yes. Yes, I was.
Stephanie H
Steve. Genius. #7 reminds me of when I started having doubts...and had only vocalized them to my family... I asked my brother (a ministerial servant)... "What if we're wrong? What then?"
His answer: "I'd rather be wrong, with a HOPE."
WTF? You're kidding right?
Very well thought out post. Well written and SO (sadly) TRUE.











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Rhonda Williams
Jaymes, I'm so sorry that you got the kind of conditioned response that you did from your Nephew. I have a 7 year old great-nephew that I haven't seen in 2 years. He is the smartest, funniest, kindest little guy anyone could ever meet... and he is being ruined by that cult! It is so heartbreaking to lose our younger siblings, nieces and nephews to this devasting "religion."
I also want to express my sympathy for your loss of Xerxes. His photo is absolutely adorable and he looks like he was your constant companion and a wonderful shoulder to cry on. I'm sure he was a wonderful fur baby.
Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten
Hi Rhonda. Thanks for the kind words x.
Tis a shame how the cult moulds their minds. It's so obvious that a normal 16 year old wouldn't have responded the way he did. Oh well. Patience is key.
Anon
Hi, is there a private messaging service I can use? Of all the people's blogs I have read I really like yours a lot!! I have a lot of questions!!
Stephanie H
Jaymes, I'm so sorry to hear about Xerxes. It looks as if you had a special relationship... I'm sure it was bad enough to lose your friend, but then to add the gut-punch of the ridiculous exchange with your nephew? Just awful. In times like these, I always try to remember that is not your actual relative with whom you are conversing. It is an automaton, a controlled shell-version of the person you once knew. It doesn't always help, but sometimes it does--to view them that way. Again, I'm so sorry!! But I am so glad you wrote about it. Hopefully it was cathartic. *Hugs*
tribetime
Jaymes, So sorry for the loss of your wonderful companion. I am a pet sitter, and believe me, I grieve for the loss of any of my charges along with their people. I have been out of JW control for 28 years now, after having been raised in it, and believe me I have never been happier or felt more free. Recently (I think because of all the renewed fervor against "apostates") I have begun feeling the affects of shunning, having been left out of several family celebrations, so I empathize with you. Stay strong and close to those who care about you, and remember, when you feel ready, there are so many 4 legged friends out there who are ready to give their unconditional love to you.
Nico80
My deepest condolences for your loss. My dog's been gone years now & I still cried when I saw her photo 2 days ago. Blamed the pregnancy hormones but dang I still miss her. She was 11. When your cousin finds out why you contacted him he'll feel ashamed & that's good because it's normal. Maybe in the long run it will help him see shunning for what it is.
Again my condolences. Great dogs truly are one of the few pure uncomplicated joys in life. *hugs*
smmcroberts
Jaymes,
Like so many of us, I well know the sorrow of losing a beloved animal companion. My heart goes out to you. I'm sure your nephew would've felt a similar response to mine if he could've listened long enough to even hear what you needed to share with him. It's a double heartbreak to know that you have also lost your nephew. But there is hope -- especially in one so young -- that he will find his way back to reality and normal family relationships.
Rest in peace, Xerxes, and thank you for having been there for my new distant friend Jaymes those many times when he counted on your unconditional love.










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Stephanie H
Loved this!! That's what it's all about. A FAIR examination of both sides. That's the biggest gripe I have with the WT. They don't allow their members the opportunity to see another side. But yet, they encourage people of other faiths to examine THEIR religions closely. What about JWs? Should they not be afforded that same chance? It's critical! I can't wait for your second part! Thanks so much for this. :)










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anonymous
The whom is a liar is called out by the truthful ones.
smmcroberts
anonymous,
It's hard to argue with logic--not to mention English--such as that.
But stay tuned; I see that some of us need a third part in this series. So, coming soon to your favorite apostate site: we'll help to further identify those who are not the "truthful ones."
anonymous
Are you belittling me as to provoke a fight? See you don't speak to help others. You speak to help yourself.
I can see by your emotional and irrational response while threatened, that logical reasoning is non existent with you. You see Reasoning with sound logic and sound mind can not work if you are Arrogant,Hateful, and unwilling to listen to reason. You just didn't like what I said,The Truth. Hate, this is the reason you simply can not argue effectively. You have already called me Stupid for my beliefs and a liar as well. But the fact still remains one is the Liar and one is Truthful. One is truly stupid and the other is truly wise.. Only God will separate Satans people from his people.

smmcroberts
Whoa, there, anonymous! Where did that outburst come from? I've never called you stupid or belittled you.
It wasn't that I "didn't like what you said." It was that I couldn't understand your non-grammatical sentence. I couldn't even tell if you were agreeing with me or disagreeing with me.
I'm sorry if I completely missed your attempt at "reasoning and sound logic." But I don't think you're justified in assuming from that that I am full of hate and arrogance.
Britt
You people have something wrong with you you's should be ashamed of yourselves its obv that they're lies about the hitler thing n serious sin thing n the reason why we don't accept blood is because its sacred n in the bible it's tld that it should be poured back to Jehovah plus thats an old article theres new publication called the bible teach book tellin us that we cn accept other options other than blood, have u ever heard of the cell saver that doctors use in hospitals children dnt die anymore because of refusing blood due to tons of other options if they do die its not because of lack of blood you ppl need to truely repent and stop spreading lies this isn't a game with points hw childish can you get this is real life fair enough if the truth wasn't for you bt there's no need for this.
smmcroberts
Britt,
"Children don't die ANYMORE" from the Watchtower's
policies? You make this as a POSITIVE statement, and then claim that
there is something wrong with US?
Whoa, there, Britt; try to think of what you're saying! So it was okay for children to die in the past due to following the Watchtower??? Tell that to one of the parents, such as Mary, whose 15 year-old son died from refusing blood (http://smmcroberts.net/mailbag.... Or tell it to a husband such as Gary Busselman (http://www.freeminds.org/index... whose wife Delores died for refusing a bone marrow transplant back when the Watchtower said transplants were against God's law.
Wake up, Britt; children STILL die needlessly and senselessly if they need
platelets or whole blood. All because people like you refuse to listen to anyone but the Watchtower, whose record of reliability is zero.
You say we should be ashamed of ourselves. But shame on YOU for letting children die (and be molested, shunned, and uneducated) by following Watchtower policy and not even caring enough about your children to examine the other side of the issue -- just because you're terrified of Armageddon and are trying to save your own hide!
What if the Watchtower is as wrong about blood as they were about transplants? Don't you think that's a question worth asking, and then researching -- outside of Watchtower publications -- to find the answer?
Listen to yourself: "There's a new publication... telling us that we can accept other options other than blood." Why do you allow yourself to be TOLD what you can accept? Don't you know that you have a human responsibility to look after your children beyond just doing whatever a "new publication" from a totally unreliable source tells you? (Luke 12:57)
How is it "obvious" to you that "the serious sin thing" is a lie? Have you
ever been molested as a child? If you had, you'd probably categorize
that as a "serious sin," but even if you haven't, you'll still recognize
it as a serious sin as long as you haven't lost all touch with your
sense of empathy.
The Watchtower's "two witness" policy allows molestation to occur unabated. This has been proven in courts of law, and the Watchtower has been fined millions of dollars for their negligence (http://www.jehovahswitnessblog.... If it was all just "apostate lies" surely the courts would've seen through it.
You are so right: "This isn't a game with points." It is life and death. Please pull your head out of your Watchtower publications, lift it up and face reality and your responsibilities as a human being on this planet. You must think for yourself and act out of love rather than blindly following the words of those who expect you to sacrifice your children to them, and those who teach you that you must hate anyone who points out the many real and fatal flaws of the Watchtower.
Yes, there is very much a "need for this" [these blog articles.] Because before people decide to give up their duties as human beings and surrender their freewill and minds to the Watchtower they at least need to see the truth about the Watchtower's record of reliability.
Britt, you NEED to read these articles before responding to this comment, and definitely before going out in service to spread such doctrines further:
http://smmcroberts.net/blog/pu...
http://smmcroberts.net/blog/wh...
http://smmcroberts.net/blog/th...
Then you need to look into your heart, because I know you're still in there somewhere.
Britt
and I never sed that children dying was a positive thing i meant that back in the day they wudnt of known about other choices they cud have other then blood so yes children may of sadly passed away bt wat im sayin now that children cn be hooked up to the cell saver machine which pumps wateva blood they lose durin ops straight back into their body uve got to stop tryin to make me sound like a horrible person
smmcroberts
Britt,
I don't believe you're a horrible person, and I have gone out of my way to say so several times. But the Watchtower has horrible doctrines that have cost the very lives of its gullible followers in the past. You can't dismiss the significance of those lives by pointing out that medical science has recently developed some procedures whereby refusing blood might be a less fatal choice in some instances.
The hard fact is that the Watchtower (supposedly being directed by Jehovah) put policies in place that cost members their very lives. First it was vaccinations, then it was organ transplants, then it was blood. They've since admitted that they were wrong about the first two [with no apologies to the families of the people their policies killed]. They have yet to admit that they're wrong on the last one (though the current policy is a farce: allowing cow's blood and most human blood fractions, all of which would be unbiblical if there really was a prohibition against blood transfusions.)
Britt, please Tell me how these facts about the Watchtower [aka the Governing Body] proves that they are being directed by God. Enlighten me. Maybe I'm the one who is stupid because I just don't get it. An organization that has gotten God's laws FATALLY WRONG twice in the recent past: this is the organization I'm supposed to believe is "God's organization on Earth"? And I'm supposed to refuse life-saving medical care based on their current say-so??? Excuse me, but wouldn't that be the epitome of foolishness?
Britt
and we're not afraid of Armageddon we're lookin forward to it and for all u people that dint listen like in Noah's day u will all perish unfortunately thats why we have to spread the word because Jehovah doesn't wnt u to die in Armageddon bt jst like in Noah's day they ignored him and his warnings n they all passed away accept Noah an his family we're lookin foward to see wat Jehovah does and for the new paradise afterwards where we don't have to worry or stress n i kno that im lookin forward to see our dead loved ones as well as many others
Britt
all i kno is that it states in the bible that blood is sacred thats why we don't accept it ive never read in the bible it sayin not to accept organs do u actually kno these ppl really well who have lost a person due to not givin them organs???? everything i say to u u switch it around or say the opposite if u ask me a question I'll research n tell u im 19 im not afraid of bein questioned im firm in the faith n i trust it :)
smmcroberts
Britt,
When I was 19 I trusted them too. But a couple of years later I was heartbroken to discover that trusting them had been a huge mistake.
As for blood being sacred: it also says in the Bible that the loaves of presentation were sacred and were only to be eaten by priests. Yet David and his men ate the loaves in order to save their lives. Jesus spoke approvingly of David's breaking God's law in order to save life at Mark 2:23-27.
Can you derive a biblical principle from this?
http://smmcroberts.net/blog/th...
smmcroberts
Sorry, Britt, but I feel morally obligated to inform you that you're living a delusion. [Whether you're capable of understanding this fact or not.]
First of all, the hard scientific evidence proves that there never could have been an earth-wide flood. Plus the biblical account itself contains impossibilities: http://smmcroberts.net/religio.... So the whole Noah story is a myth rather than something to base your hopes for the future on.
Secondly, if it's really true that the most powerful force in the universe (your "Jehovah") "doesn't want me to die," then I'm not afraid of the death threats made by a publishing house in Brooklyn Heights, New York, and neither should you be.
Third: your dead loved ones will not be resurrected according to Watchtower doctrine. The most you'll get is just some surrogates implanted with their memories: http://smmcroberts.net/blog/yo...
Fourth: You can't live forever in paradise on Earth: http://smmcroberts.net/blog/yo...
Fifth: "Looking forward" to the deaths of billions of people is morally sick. I suspect you're better than that, but misguided adherence to the Watchtower suppresses the best in you.
Do some independent research (not using Watchtower publications) and reclaim your life.
Britt
have you ever thought that these people could be the liers some of these ppl cud of been in the truth n did something bad and gt disfellowshipped because they were unrepentant so they decided to spread lies to make themselves feel better and dnt say we're the liers because we tell the truth with facts n evidence from the bible many religions dnt do that we actually stick to the laws u get Muslims celebratin Christmas i thought they worshiped alla not Jesus the whole world is lyin in the power of the wicked one u call me sick for lookin forward to see my dead loved ones atleast i will see them and it'll be a joyous occasion why wud i sack the truth jst to go into the world where there's ppl who dnt care bout me, pedos everywhere, parties where i cud end up drunk n throwing up in a gutter gttin an sti or unwanted pregnancy frm sex this world is not fair and its unsafe if the truth makes us safe frm this world then wats wrong i had a taste of this world n my bad association tempted me to do drugs, drink have sex stay out all night n party i was reproved i felt like i let myself down n Jehovah which i did i was hurt not happy in the world why wud i go back to that when i ave friends in the truth that care bout me and wudnt tempted me into anything why do u insist i leave the truth im happy in it thats one thing worldly ppl don't have true happiness don't call me names or gt angry im jst statin hw i feel thanks
smmcroberts
Britt,
First: I didn't call you sick for looking forward to seeing dead loved ones. That's a dishonest case of deliberately twisting my words. I said that "looking forward to the deaths of billions of people is morally sick." I stand by that statement.
The Watchtower paints everything in black and white. Sure there are all these wicked things you mention "in the world," but they're not telling you the whole story.
The universe is NOT divided up into Jehovah's Witnesses on one side and the "wicked world" on the other. It is all just people. There are good and bad on both sides.
I never "left the truth." I followed the truth. It led me out of a lying organization and back into the real world.
I haven't set foot in a Kingdom Hall in over 35 years. But in all that time I have not been drunk or taken recreational drugs, stayed out all night, or had casual sex. Instead, I educated myself, volunteered, got a good job so I could donate to charities, and began donating whole blood and then platelets at the Red Cross. [I realize that the latter two would be considered sins by the Watchtower, but not by any rational person.] I also began trying to help my former brothers and sisters to see the light.
I'm not telling you all this to blow my own horn. I'm telling you this to show you that people who decide to leave a lying organization sometimes do so in order to maintain their integrity and to remain loyal to the truth. Then they find that the world outside of the organization has many caring people who do acts of kindness and love. It is filled with rich literature, arts, music, poetry, philosophy, science, and fascinating cultures. It isn't all just the blackness that the Watchtower paints. Maybe that's their biggest lie.
Statistically, you're probably safer from pedophiles out here in the world than in the org.
Britt
I don't need to read ur apostate literature n we obey Jehovah not the watchtower shows hw much u kno n yes children die bt they will be resurrected into the paradise we have that hope that we all cn look forward to and we do not allow children to get molested thats a load of rubbish i myself was sexual assaulted when i was still at school the elders and my mum were there for me when I had to tlk to the police n make a statement so do not spread lies like that we just follow the bible which is a gift from god he tells us what's right and wrong he cares and wants to keep us safe many may think its restrictive bt wen a mother doesn't allow her child to go out at a certain time its not coz she's bein evil its to keep her child safe from pedos and also my dad physical abused me and mentally abused my little brother and he was punished the elders warned him with scriptures bt he didn't listen he had a bad temper so he was punished if the elders didnt care about children wudnt my dad still be here beating me up?
smmcroberts
Britt,
Well, as part one of this article proved: according to the Watchtower itself you DO need to read criticisms of the Watchtower. How else will you see both sides of the issues [which the Watchtower says is the only means of arriving at the truth]?
You wrote: "we obey Jehovah not the watchtower shows hw much u kno"
But sadly, this really shows how little you know about the history of the organization you have pledged your life to. http://smmcroberts.net/blog/qu...
From 1921 to 1952 the Watchtower said vaccinations were against God's law. When the Witnesses refused vaccinations, were they obeying Jehovah or the Watchtower?
From 1967 to 1980 the Watchtower said organ transplants were against God's law. When the Witnesses refused organ transplants, were they obeying Jehovah or the Watchtower?
Today, the Watchtower says that vaccinations and transplants are NOT against God's law. So, in letting their children die for want of these medical procedures in the past, Witnesses were NOT obeying laws of Jehovah's; they were obeying the whims of the Watchtower. [References supporting all of these facts are in the links I already gave you which you say you don't need to read.]
In these FATAL mistakes the Watchtower proved (all by itself with no help from "lying apostates") that it did NOT know what God's laws were -- even when it took it upon itself to enforce what it only imagined his laws were. To any person with reasoning abilities that shows that this organization is unreliable, and does not know when God is directing it and when he is not (which strongly implies that they have NEVER been directed by God.)
Of course, if this really were Jehovah's organization he never would've allowed the Watchtower to make false proclamations about his laws (or allowed them to remain in effect for decades) which directly led to the deaths of some of his "name people."
Britt, I'm glad you didn't experience the same treatment at the elders' hands as so many others have. But your experience in no way invalidates theirs, or the fact that Watchtower policy leads to a lack of protection for vulnerable children.
Tell Candace Conti that "it's a load of rubbish." Courts of law that have objectively examined the evidence disagree with your conclusion. Have you personally examined the evidence in such cases? If not, how do you know that you're not lying about it being "rubbish"?
Just because the Watchtower tells you something is a lie, that does not make it so: remember what they said about vaccinations and organ transplants? Turns out what they said were lies. How do you know they're not lying about other things? You don't if you never examine what their critics say. And if you just go on parroting what the Watchtower says you will be lying too.
Britt
yeh u may not be doin bad things bt at the end of the day ur still part of the world satan has won with u n the fact hes usin u to turn others to the world is bad its jst like Adam n eve satan turn eve n eve gt Adam to sin too Putin us in this mess jst like in Noah's day the people were jst livin their lives yet they werent doin god will they dint listen to kno jst as many today n they died im honestly not tryin to be rude bt im not a sick person im gona enjoy seein everyone happy n joyful as they see their loved ones again n since ur an ex witness u shud kno that it cn be done for Jesus resurrected many ppl u shud kno better n the fact ur tryin to drag ppl into the world which is ruled by satan is wrong trust me I'd rather be in the truth for a strt i avint been sexual assaulted by anyone in the truth whilst in the world i was as well as many other girls where did u find ur info from???? tell me which watchtower u find corrupt n I'll check them out????
smmcroberts
Britt, please see the links I've already provided for the facts about the Watchtower stating that vaccinations and organ transplants were against God's law. The article you are commenting on contains the quotes from the Watchtower on the two witness rule which results in protecting pedophiles in the organization. On this, you can also follow the link I gave you to the Candace Conti case. I also previously gave you a link to show why the Noah story could not possibly be true.
I'm glad you're going to do some research.
Britt
you believe what scientists say when it was scientists who sed evolution exist bt then changed there mind sayin that they're must be a creator scientist change their views like that the bible has never changed and info has been taken frm the bible and used in the watchtower and awakes its a shame u dnt believe in the hope at the end of the day i believe in the truth all these lies and false literature won't gt to me it makes me stronger u cn call me stupid bt ur the foolish ones when Armageddon comes u will see that this is the truth n that maybe u shud of listened i feel sorry for u and if ur goin to reply sayin the complete opposite of wat I've sed don't bother lets jst agree to disagree goodbye
smmcroberts
Britt,
Science has not "Changed its mind" on evolution. Science has never come to the conclusion "that there must be a creator." I don't know where you've gotten such ideas (probably from the Watchtower publications) but they are flat out lies. That's why you need to educate yourself apart from an organization that I've just proven to you has lied.
It is the Watchtower that keeps changing its mind. If the "Bible has never changed" why were vaccinations and organ transplants against God's law decades ago, and now are not against God's law? I never called you stupid, but what would you call someone who can't answer that simple question when the answer is so obvious? Or who avoids even considering that vital question?
In any case, it's not "scientists" that I believe. What I believe in is called the scientific method. It is the best method we have for ascertaining the truth. It relies on evidence. The evidence regarding the Watchtower proves that it lied when it said vaccinations and organ transplants were against God's law. All of that evidence is within the pages of Watchtower publications. You don't need "lying apostate literature" to see that. You just have to look into what the Watchtower itself has published. Are you brave enough to do that? Or are you a "truth seeker" in name only?
Even if Armageddon came it could not possibly make the lies of the Watchtower suddenly become truth.
Britt
first of all im not avoiding anything yes the watchtower may of changed bt c'mon we're not perfect did u kno witnesses used to celebrate birthdays n Xmas bt as soon as we learned it was wrong we changed n stop so yeh the watchtower may of changed about givin an organ so what there's still much to learn bt yano u'll never get it u dnt like the fact i have a faith there's no point in arguing when Armageddon comes u'll be feelin pretty foolish all u do is bad mouth witnesses n the watchtower its kind of pathetic coz i dnt bad mouth ur religion bt thats the difference between a true Christian n a false one im jst standing up for my faith the truth n it is known that scientist have agreed that their must be a creator bt look i dnt wnt u bad mouthin the truth to me so give up
smmcroberts
"Oh, sorry about killing your son, Mary, and for killing your wife, Gary. But, c'mon: we're not perfect!"
Huh?!
Britt, you said: "the watchtower may of changed about givin an organ so what"
"SO WHAT?"???!!!
Seriously?
People "in the world" who needed a transplant between 1967-1980 lived. During that same time Jehovah's Witnesses who needed a transplant died. Why did they die? Because they followed the lie of the Watchtower. Where did the lie come from? Was it from Jehovah? Did he lie? You'll say No. But did the Governing Body THINK it came from Jehovah? You'll say Yes. So, this evidence proves that they THINK Jehovah is leading them when he is NOT. Please think about that. It proves that they are NOT the "faithful and discreet slave" they make themselves out to be: http://smmcroberts.net/blog/wh...
What if I told you I was "God's prophet on Earth"? That I was "anointed" by God to give you spiritual truth, and that God required you to obey whatever I told you? Would you do it: no questions asked? Or would you check up on me and see if there was any EVIDENCE to justify my extraordinary claim?
Any rational person would do the latter: check up on me.
What if you found out that there were people who used to believe me, but that who no longer believed me, but I told you that you must not listen to them because they were just pathetic liars who only wanted to bad-mouth my religion? Wouldn't that make you a little suspicious that I might have something to hide, and that my claim might not be true?
Any rational person would be suspicious.
What if you then found out that I formerly said "X-Rays and all other scans of the body are against God's law!" and several of my followers who were in serious accidents died because doctors couldn't use their diagnostic machines to look for internal bleeding, etc. But after a few years I said "X-rays and all other scans of the body are NOT against God's law!" Would you conclude from that evidence that I really was all that I claimed to be?
No rational person would.
Now, see if you can apply the above to your own relationship with the Watchtower.
Stephanie H
Very, very well done!! *applause* I loved the "our critics" part. Because that's really who they are slandering. Just critics who have left their control. Thanks for the Hitler part as well. That makes a lot of sense... this article is undeniable. TRUTH.
Oh, and thanks for the shout-out as well. :) Again, such an honor.
Amie lesjw
As always a thought provoking balanced article.
As I gradually wake up to the truth and think about how the organization portrays 'apostates' I am grateful for these articles.
I have to admit to being frightened of apostates. Looking back though I'm not proud of my ignorance. I was frightened because we were told that apostates were infectious. And there is only two ways that humans deal with fear and that is to fun away or to try to destroy what is scaring them.
I think you make an interesting point that we are all different, and we are trying to come to an understanding of 'the truth', well that's true in my case anyway!
x Amie
http://www.lesbianjw.blogspot....

smmcroberts
Thanks, Amie.
You're right: the WT uses fear in order to retain its followers. That's why it takes brave souls such as yourself to break free of their clutches.
I wish you well in your fading.
BTW: I loved your blog articles. Keep writing; it does help!










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Stephanie H
It's sickening to me how they rejoice in the fact that non-believers will be soon destroyed. As one member of the governing body so eloquently put it [I'm paraphrasing] all those destroyed at Armageddon will look like human hot-dogs.
Ridiculous. And yes--morally sick. Very well done article!
Andres Torres
Human hot dogs! Sounds delicious. Too bad I'll be missing the barbecue.
smmcroberts
Thanks, Stephanie, and along those lines I'll never forget the prayer a Bethel brother gave in the dining room which ended with: "we look forward to the day when you will wipe every two-legged germ off the face of the Earth." To which everyone, including GB members present, said "Amen!"
It wasn't always so. In 1879, in a letter accompanying the very first Watchtower, Russell wrote:
"We reasoned that, if Christ's coming were to end probation, and bring irrevocable ruin upon ninety-nine in a hundred of mankind; then it could scarcely be considered desirable, neither could we pray with proper spirit, 'Come, Lord Jesus, Come quickly!'
"We had rather request--much as we should 'love his appearing'--that he remain away and our sufferings and trials continue so that 'if by any means we might save some.'"
But his solution to the dilemma was not to try and save as many as possible, but rather to believe that Christ's coming would not be accompanied by killing people. (If Russell were alive today I don't think he'd become a Jehovah's Witness.)
Amie lesjw
I guess as the brainwashing stops and I start to see that I was involved in a cult it is hard for me to think that anyone in the religion would really think about 'killing' me. But then I read Anne Marie's link and it kind of just gave me food for thought. When I was in the religion I didn't think anything of everyone being killed because the concept was something my brain shut out. Now I see it was just part of my conditioning.
Thanks for another great article.
xAmie
smmcroberts
Yes, Amie: I think we all shut it out when we were Witnesses. We were caught up in "belonging" to a special group which became more special the more we demonized all those outside of our group. So, if God eventually was going to do away with "the others" it was of little concern to us.
I think that's one reason why the Watchtower stresses not having non-Witness friends; it tends to humanize the "enemy."
But if we can get Witnesses to think of the horror of actually murdering people it might just wake them up to what they're actually subscribing to.
Anne Marie
You are not alone in the thoughts of your brilliant article...
Please see the below link, the subject of which began circa 2001 when I ran across an e-mail from a terrified guy who'd received an e-mail from someone close to him at Bethel re: the idea of the Watchtower trying to turn their members into "slaughterers of God's enemies"; aka, ex-Watchtower members...
http://www.sixscreensofthewatc...
smmcroberts
Great post, Anne Marie, thanks for sharing it!
It's even more alarming when you realize that they thought at one time that Armageddon had actually begun:
"The ‘battle of the great day of God Almighty’ (Rev. 16:14), which will
end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth’s present
rulership, is already commenced."--The Time Is at Hand, 1907, p. 101
With the Watchtower now preaching hatred for apostates, it isn't too
much of a stretch to see them once again declaring that the battle of
Armageddon has already commenced and it's therefore time to sharpen
their swords and join "Jehovah's armies." From the "Watchtower attitude" I've seen displayed by some Witnesses, I conclude that many of the "other sheep" would be only too willing to help with this "privilege."
Anne Marie
Yes, Roberts!! The Watchtower (when one looks at the entirety of the history of their organization) reveals a very twisted, legalistic, controlling and cruel picture that most certainly does not match up with the pretty picture they paint to the public. So many are suffering inside this organization, and many more are suffering after being forced to leave, being shunned by their "friends" and families, trying to figure out how to survive...











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Lacy Beatty
I heard this many times from elders over here in USA-in several different states. Since I heard it from elders, and numerous ones in various parts of the country, I assumed it was written somewhere in the WT. Funny how teachings that aren't even official teachings can spread worldwide.
Amie lesjw
yep, my uncle ( a big Star Trek fan) loved this topic. "why, Amie, would there be so many planets if God didn't have an idea for them" and this was his favourite one "Because man can invent Star Trek and 'transport' then imagine what type of travel God could invent for us to get to other planet".
Yep
He's an elder now.
Shudder, splutter, laugh.
x Amie
Andres Torres
What brother Richard Baptiste suggested to you actually goes counter the official position of the governing body. Their position is that while we don't know for sure, their is reason to believe no one will be married or have kids in the new system, so this Earth will never fill up. Watchtower 1987 Questions From Readers in case your interested:
*** w87 6/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***
Does the Bible, though, indicate whether resurrected ones will be able to marry or to resume a previous marriage that was ended by a death? One account seems to bear on this question. It involved Sadducees who, while not even believing in the resurrection, came to Jesus trying to entrap him. They presented this problem involving brother-in-law marriage: “There were seven brothers; and the first took a wife and died childless. So the second, and the third took her. Likewise even the seven: they did not leave children behind, but died off. Lastly, the woman also died. Consequently, in the resurrection, of which one of them does she become the wife?”—Luke 20:27-33; Matthew 22:23-28.
Christians are not under the Law, but a similar difficulty could be raised concerning them. For example: Brother and Sister C—— were married and had two children. Then he died. Sister C—— loved and deeply missed him, but she felt a need for companionship, financial support, sexual expression, and help with the children. So she married Brother M——, which union was as Scriptural as the first. Later he became ill and died. If the former mates were resurrected and marriage were possible, whom might she marry?
Consider Jesus’ response to the Sadducees: “The children of this system of things marry and are given in marriage, but those who have been counted worthy of gaining that system of things and the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. In fact, neither can they die anymore, for they are like the angels, and they are God’s children by being children of the resurrection. But that the dead are raised up even Moses disclosed . . . when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.”—Luke 20:34-38; Matthew 22:29-32.
Some have felt that Jesus was here referring to the heavenly resurrection, yet there are reasons to believe that his reply was about the earthly resurrection in the coming “system of things.” What reasons underlie this view? Those questioning Jesus did not believe in him or know about a heavenly resurrection. They asked about a Jewish family under the Law. In reply Jesus referred to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, men who hoped for life again on earth. (Genesis 42:38; Job 14:13-15; compare Hebrews 11:19.) Those patriarchs, and millions of others, who are raised on earth and who prove faithful will be “like the angels.” Though mortal, they will not die once God has declared them righteous for endless life.
Human emotions today might make this a difficult conclusion to accept. But it is to be noted that nowhere does the Bible say that God’s resurrecting the faithful means restoring their marital status. Hence, no one believes that if Aquila and Priscilla have gained life in heaven, they have resumed their marriage. (Acts 18:2) And Joseph and Mary will evidently live in different realms—he on earth and she in heaven. (John 19:26; Acts 1:13, 14) Since none of us have lived in heaven, we cannot say what feelings Aquila, Priscilla, and Mary might have there, yet we can be sure of their finding full contentment in their heavenly service.
Similarly, we have never lived as perfect humans. Thus we cannot be sure how we will feel about past relationships if and when we gain perfect human life in a paradise. It is good for us to remember that when Jesus made that statement he was a perfect human and therefore in a better position than we to appreciate the feelings of those who are “counted worthy of gaining that system of things.” We can also trust that Jesus is able to ‘sympathize with our present weaknesses.’ (Hebrews 4:15) So if a Christian finds it hard to accept the conclusion that resurrected ones will not marry, he can be sure that God and Christ are understanding. And he can simply wait to see what occurs.
Andres Torres
I always thought this answer was a bit of a let down myself. "We're going to live forever but can't fall in love or have sex or have children?" What a downer!
Frank
Regarding what was said about the resurrection, that sounds contradictory. I remember when I was studying with an elder, the elder told me that Adam and Eve, as a result of their non-repentance of their sin against Jehovah God, when they ate the fruit off of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, they wouldn't receive a resurrection. He also said that Cain, the giants that were fathered by the angels of God who rebelled against God and made human bodies for themselves to marry the women on Earth, the mothers of those said giants, the people of both Sodom and Gomorrah, Jezebel and many of the first century Pharisees and Judas Iscariot would also never receive any resurrection as they are in Gehenna. This just goes to show you that they can never make up their minds as when it comes to who will be or who won't be resurrected.
Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten
Goodness me. Doesn't that sounds like a fairytale?
You forgot the talking snake, donkey and unicorn.